TWTM 3rd edition: is Kingfisher not used in Logic Stage?

[serendipitous journey]

I feel certain this is such an idiotic question, but ... in the grammar part of TWTM (3rd edition) it mentions that Kingfisher will be used in Logic, but as I'm developing my strategy for the logic years I notice that Kingfisher doesn't seem to be mentioned in the Logic materials. 

 

Instead, the possible spines listed are:

UILE

DK History of the World

Nat'l Geographic Almanac of World History

History: The Definitive Visual Guide

 

So is the Kingfisher just not there?  I mainly purchased it in elementary 'cause I thought we'd want it for Logic ...

 

thanks in advance for help; and apologies in advance if I'm just being obtuse! 

[SarahW]

I think the 1st edition listed Kingfisher? And then later (Rev. ed.?) it was dropped because it is too hard to do a narration from it.

 

I checked Kingfisher out of the library the other day. Actually, CP found it, and requested it because it has "real pictures" in it. But I'm not impressed with it, other than the "real pictures" thing. It looks more advanced than Usborne, but it doesn't really contain more information. I found quite a few entries in KF to be so abbreviated that they seemed nearly nonsensical. UILE sometimes has that problem, too, but in KF it is rather chronic. So I can definitely see how doing a narration with it would be problematic.

 

[serendipitous journey]

Thanks, SarahW.  I suppose it was just an editing problem that left the Kingfisher references in the grammar section for 3rd Ed. 

[SarahW]

Thanks, SarahW.  I suppose it was just an editing problem that left the Kingfisher references in the grammar section for 3rd Ed. 

 

 

Is it in there? Huh. I have the 3rd on Kindle, and I'm illiterate about taking notes on it. I've checked the 1st and Rev out of the library, and remember them much better. I feel like a dinosaur sometimes.  ^_^

[Carol in Cal.]

If you can get the old white Kingfisher it is better than the new ones, and absolutely the best thing to use to start teaching outlining. 

[serendipitous journey]

Is it in there? Huh. I have the 3rd on Kindle, and I'm illiterate about taking notes on it. I've checked the 1st and Rev out of the library, and remember them much better. I feel like a dinosaur sometimes.  ^_^

 

Yup.  I'll list the places I found it below for the Insatiably Curious :)    FWIW, I only spent so much time poring over this material because my child A. is allergic to history and I've spent a lot of time trying to get it working ...

 

p 108 "Seventy Centuries in Four Years" section of the eponymous chapter: "For the logic stage, you'll be using a more difficult text: the Kingfisher History Encyclopedia.  If possible, buy this book new; the memorization assignments we suggest are neatly outlined in its appendix."   ha!  or, argh!!!

 

p110 (grammar history chapter, "What If You're Starting In the Middle?") "No matter what grade you begin in, progress to the moderns over four years; when the student reaches fifth grade (the "logic stage"), supplement his study with the Kingfisher History Encyclopedia, a time line, and the teaching techniques suggested in Chapter 16 ...."

 

116 suggests the Ready Reference in Kingfisher for the lists of Egyptian dynasties, Chinese dynasties, kings of Rome &c for 1st grade memory work.  Kingfisher is also mentioned in the memory work sections for history in grades 2, 3, and 4 over the next few pages. 

[serendipitous journey]

If you can get the old white Kingfisher it is better than the new ones, and absolutely the best thing to use to start teaching outlining. 

 

oh, what a nice relief, that's the one I bought (thank you, marvelous WTM forums!!!)  I was surprised that SarahW disliked it so strongly -- maybe that was the red one?  -- b/c it was useful on the few occasions I've needed to dig deeper for our lessons (the Crusades come to mind).  So so happy it is good for outlining. 

 

[TarynB]

If you can get the old white Kingfisher it is better than the new ones, and absolutely the best thing to use to start teaching outlining.

Yes, this.

 

Kingfisher was taken out of the logic stage recommendations in TWTM 3rd edition because it went out of print, but only temporarily, as it turned out.

 

The white cover KF (copyright 1992 or 1993), IMO, is better than the later one with a red cover. White has a more narrative and flowing text than the red. The red is more like an Usborne: more juvenile, more choppy, bullet-points of info rather than narrative.

[Crimson Wife]

Right about the time that SWB was revising the logic stage of the 3rd edition of TWTM, the KHE briefly went OOP and it was unclear at the time whether a revised edition would be forthcoming. See: http://www.susanwisebauer.com/production/the-tale-of-two-books-a-publisher-in-trouble-and-a-pending-nervous-breakdown/

 

SWB asked the Hive for recommendations for a replacement. See: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/70214-andkingfisher-strikes-again-heres-your-chance/

 

The results were incorporated into the 3rd edition of TWTM. But then after publication, a new version of KHE came out. So we have our choice of using KHE or one of the other books.

[MotherOfBoys]

I made the same mistake. Bought the kingfisher, New one, after seeing it would be used in the logic stage also. I wanted to save money. But I have time to see if I can make it work.

[Meghann]

Yup. I'll list the places I found it below for the Insatiably Curious :) FWIW, I only spent so much time poring over this material because my child A. is allergic to history and I've spent a lot of time trying to get it working ...

 

p 108 "Seventy Centuries in Four Years" section of the eponymous chapter: "For the logic stage, you'll be using a more difficult text: the Kingfisher History Encyclopedia. If possible, buy this book new; the memorization assignments we suggest are neatly outlined in its appendix." ha! or, argh!!!

 

p110 (grammar history chapter, "What If You're Starting In the Middle?") "No matter what grade you begin in, progress to the moderns over four years; when the student reaches fifth grade (the "logic stage"), supplement his study with the Kingfisher History Encyclopedia, a time line, and teh teaching techniques suggested in Chapter 16 ...."

 

116 suggests the Ready Reference in Kingfisher for the lists of Egyptian dynasties, Chinese dynasties, kings of Rome &c for 1st grade memory work. Kingfisher is also mentioned in the memory work sections for history in grades 2, 3, and 4 over the next few pages.

Yup - it's definitely in there! I only read the elementary age chapters so far, so I'm glad I saw this and I didn't go ahead and buy the Kingfisher Encyclopedia yet - I have had it sitting in my Amazon cart.

[redsquirrel]

In the logic stage there are several encyclopedias suggested:

 

Usborne Inernet edition

DK History of the World

National Geographic Almanac of world history

History: The Definitive Visual Guide

 

But, you don't outline from encyclopedias. The student makes a list of important facts. In 5th grade it is 6-8 facts that the student finds interesting.  Then the student does some reading on a book about that subject. It is that reading that gets outlined. The student also makes a written narration from the reading.

 

If you look on pages 278-283 of the third ed. you can see that history has 6 suggested steps per week.

1. reading a section of an encyclopedia and making a list of 6-8 facts

2. mark dates on a timeline

3. Find the places on a map and/or globe

(I found it easy to do these all on the same day)

4 Student chooses a topic and reads about it (I assigned readings from our history text and primary sources)

5. Student writes several sentences about it. 3 are a minimum, 5-6 is better (I assigned 4-5 on the same day)

6. Student does a one point outline of approx 250-300 words (5-6 paragraphs) of text

 

These is the suggested amount of work for a 5th grader. An older student does a little bit more every year. If you read through the chapter SWB goes through years 5-8 making suggestions of approx how much writing to expect and makes a few other resource suggestions.

 

One of the things I liked about this method is that it doesn't matter so much which encyclopedia or text or primary source you use because what matters is the method. It feels less tied to any one book or series of books.

 

We followed this method in 5-6th and part of 7th grade and it worked very well. Then the amount of writing in WWS really started taking up all my son's time and attention so we dropped writing in history to save our sanity. :willy_nilly: 

 

[Meghann]

Anyone know if the newest Kingfisher Encyclopedia is any good? The red one is no longer current. The 3rd edition was released in 2012.

[Guest]

ARGG! Too many changes and updates, etc.! I cannot keep up! I like those new history rec's/directions.

 

The Kingfisher reviews I read on Amazon last night were scathing of the red and new. Errors abound, so the reviewers say. I just bought a used Red pre-purple edition copy. Should I return it?

 

Now I'm thinking I need that 3rd edition of WTM. I just bought a used 2nd edition copy. But if I do, I bet a newer revised/edited copy will come out. Maybe if they dropped the pricing and ordering pages, they would not need to update so often? Or how about separate books for each stage? Opps! Now I am whining...time for bed ya'll.

[Carol in Cal.]

 

 

But, you don't outline from encyclopedias. The student makes a list of important facts. In 5th grade it is 6-8 facts that the student finds interesting.  Then the student does some reading on a book about that subject. It is that reading that gets outlined. The student also makes a written narration from the reading.

 

 

The earlier editions of WTM suggested outlining from encyclopedias, and again, the white Kingfisher is extremely easy to outline--great for teaching kids to do this.  I used it at the beginning of the logic stage, and then as DD became more proficient at outlining I started to ask her to outline parts of other books that were a bit more complex. 

[Crimson Wife]

ARGG! Too many changes and updates, etc.! I cannot keep up! I like those new history rec's/directions.

 

The Kingfisher reviews I read on Amazon last night were scathing of the red and new. Errors abound, so the reviewers say. I just bought a used Red pre-purple edition copy. Should I return it?

 

Now I'm thinking I need that 3rd edition of WTM. I just bought a used 2nd edition copy. But if I do, I bet a newer revised/edited copy will come out. Maybe if they dropped the pricing and ordering pages, they would not need to update so often? Or how about separate books for each stage? Opps! Now I am whining...time for bed ya'll.

FWIW, we have the red KHE (we started HSing in '06) and I haven't noticed any particular errors. I do feel that it has an anti-Catholic bias in its treatment of certain topics, but I have the same complaint about most secular history books.

 

I dislike the 2nd edition of TWTM because I feel that it went overboard in pushing PHP products. My favorite is the 3rd edition, but I like the 1st edition as well.

 

Someone from PHP (possibly SWB but I can't remember) said that Norton holds the copyrights to TWTM and there wouldn't be a way for PHP to allow purchasers of hardcover copies to have a discount on future e-editions of just a particular section. Which is too bad, because that would be an awesome idea if I do say so myself!

[redsquirrel]

ARGG! Too many changes and updates, etc.! I cannot keep up! I like those new history rec's/directions.

 

The Kingfisher reviews I read on Amazon last night were scathing of the red and new. Errors abound, so the reviewers say. I just bought a used Red pre-purple edition copy. Should I return it?

 

Now I'm thinking I need that 3rd edition of WTM. I just bought a used 2nd edition copy. But if I do, I bet a newer revised/edited copy will come out. Maybe if they dropped the pricing and ordering pages, they would not need to update so often? Or how about separate books for each stage? Opps! Now I am whining...time for bed ya'll.

 

One of the good things about the 3rd ed method of history is that access to very specific resources and things going OOP don't matter any longer. The encyclopedia is used for basic information gathering and, as time goes on, learning to determine what were the most notable or important events. At the beginning they are simply used to make a list of 6-8 facts that catch the student's eye. Later on, in 7th or 8th grade they are asked to list what they think is the most important. Honestly, if you got desperate, you could use wikepedia . In WWS, SWB gives permission to use Wikepedia for looking up basic historical facts, such as the dates of the French Revolution and basic biographical information about person the student will be researching. I wouldn't use it for long, but if I were in a pinch....

 

The student goes on to read in and write from either a book about a specific subject, or a text or a primary source. The encyclopedia just isn't that big a deal. They read a 2 page spread and get some orienting information and a few  bullet points. Done. Use what you have and don't worry about it.

 

If you want to worry, spend time thinking about what your other reading sources will be :lol: . Come on up to the Logic Forum and you can see lots of threads about that. I have used the K12 text "Human Odyssey" and for the first two years there were the Oxford Press series. I have tossed in Hakim's HOUS, and the Critical Thinking Press series "Critical Thinking in US history" (which is a PIA but also good to use IMO) and lots of documentaries. The encyclopedia is only a small part of logic stage history.

 

As for a 4th edition of TWTM, someone here asked recently if there was any plan to do another update of TWTM any time soon, and a moderator said there is no current plan.

 

[redsquirrel]

The earlier editions of WTM suggested outlining from encyclopedias, and again, the white Kingfisher is extremely easy to outline--great for teaching kids to do this.  I used it at the beginning of the logic stage, and then as DD became more proficient at outlining I started to ask her to outline parts of other books that were a bit more complex. 

 

Yes, it does. I own all three editions. But many of the encyclopedias are not good for outlining. They are little more than lists of topic sentences. And if one does lend itself to outlining, and it goes OOP, suddenly it is going for 300$ on Amazon.

 

By taking a specific resource out of the picture, SWB has made doing history this way inexpensive and much more accessible. Well...potentially inexpensive. Never underestimate how much a homeschooler can spend on resources. If you have a halfway decent library it is possible to find many library books. I chose to go with the textbook option (also inexpensive) because while I have a fantastic public library I am not good about getting there on a weekly basis.