CLE Math is ticking me off - Math Mammoth continues to deliver

[abrightmom]

Usually I  :001_wub:  CLE Math. Math "gets done", my kid HAS been learning, and it has been a HUGE improvement in running this little homeschool day to day with the introduction of CLE Math two years ago. My oldest has always used Math Mammoth (started in 1st grade) and my other kids have dabbled in it. My 7 yo is currently using MM 2A. Math Mammoth has always been my favorite favorite math. I super duper adore it.

 

My middle son is the hardcore CLE guy and every time I've moved over to MM with him Math becomes Misery. I quickly run back to my CLE Math shelter and bathe in the peace it brings. 

 

He finished CLE 3rd grade and I am working thru the end of year test for MM with him.

 

Ahem.

 

I KNOW why MM brings him to tears. MM truly asks my kids to THINK, to wrestle, to make choices, to APPLY strategies, to synthesize numerous mathematical concepts and prove understanding through application. CLE has done a teensy bit of that but my math struggler can work somewhat mindlessly through his lessons …. It scares me. It's fairly difficult to "get by" in Math Mammoth. Sooner or later the kid really has to prove understanding or he/she will be stuck. 

 

Schooling four kids takes so much LIFE and Math is one of the biggest Time, Energy, and Peace of Mind Suckers there is. Especially when my math education was dismal.  :boxing_smiley:

 

Guess what I'm printing this weekend???? And guess who will be crying through math lessons next week????

 

CLE math has met a need but the TRUE need is depth of understanding. I hate that my son STILL doesn't understand what he is doing when he regroups (borrow? carry? ACK!!!!). He simply wants to put the right number in the right place and "get it done". Now, I have shown him why he is putting those numbers in those places. We've used the Base Ten blocks a gazillion times. Shrug. Maybe MM wouldn't help him in this case and he'd still try to work "algorithmically". Maybe he truly doesn't grasp the "why" and maybe I shouldn't be upset about this. 

 

Does it MATTER if my kid can only do math without depth of understanding at age 9 or 10? Will he suddenly GET IT in a few years when his brain matures? Am I simply trying to beat something into him that will eventually come rather painlessly? CAN I KEEP THE PEACE WITH CLE or should I fight this battle now and press into him for a season with tear inducing math? Can I wait another year and SEE if it all CLICKS? I can't pour understanding into his brain. Feels like I'm pouring it into a colander, you know?! 

 

Sigh.

 

His brother just "gets" math. I hardly have to teach him anything. If I had more time and/or if he wanted to he could be seriously advanced in math …. 

 

 

 

[kagmypts]

First, I am so sorry to hear about your son's math struggles.  

 

With respect to borrowing and carrying, I have found that the best manipulative is money!  Our currency is a base ten system so it works perfectly.  Ones = pennies, tens = dimes, 100s = $1 bill, thousands = $10 bill, and so on.  I recently worked through borrowing with my son, and I set up a place value chart on a piece of paper.  If he understands place value, he will know that no single column can have more than 9 items in it (carrying), and every column has to have enough money to pay the exact number of coins (borrowing).  For borrowing, I gave my DS a certain amount of money.  I then told him that he had to give me a certain amount back, and I wrote that as a subtraction problem.  If he did not have enough pennies, he had to go to the dimes.  We manually went through the process of exchanging one dime for ten pennies.  He moved those ten pennies over into the ones column, but he also realized that he now had one less dime.  As we were swapping out the coins, I was showing him how we decrement the tens column by one and add a one in front of the number in the ones column.  We went through numerous examples, and he seemed to get it.  This strategy was also great when he was trying to borrow across a "0" because he realized that if he didn't have any dimes that he could still "borrow" dollars.  He could visually see how he wasn't changing the number, only place value.  Good luck!

[abrightmom]

Using money with the place value chart is a great idea.  :coolgleamA:

[Guest]

Some kids will never care or need the WHY. My oldest is this way. It really doesn't matter. If CLE clicks for your child, keep at it. It is a solid program. If it helps, the why explanations are in the teacher's guides for you to explain. But does he need to understand at this age? Not really. Not every kid is a math person.

[Critterfixer]

Don't make him bawl over math. It isn't worth it.  DON"T ask me how I know.

NO understanding is possible when one is in tears over a lesson. Just doesn't happen.

 

 

[Critterfixer]

Double post. My bad.

 

[Perogi]

I started using CLE with my middle who struggles with Math and was crying over Singapore. It has made a world of difference. I do think some of it has to do with maturity and that she'll "get" more of it as she gets older. It also has to do with frustration tolerance and her inability to excell at a mastery based program.

 

Do you teach the lesson to your CLE user? I have stuck with teaching the lesson to dd because, having taught her older sis with Singapore, I can augment the lessons with some conceptual pieces that aren't there in CLE. I pull our manipulatives, add MM worksheets if necessary, and still have her working through CWP (a grade level behind) to try and make sure she can think critically about what she's doing.

[Hunter]

Research on the Teaching of Math

Formal Arithmetic at Age Ten, Hurried or Delayed?

by Harvey Bluedorn. Copyright 2001. All rights reserved.

 

 

https://www.triviumpursuit.com/articles/research_on_teaching_math.php

 

 

[abrightmom]

Thank-you all for your compassion, commiseration and common sense. Hunter, thanks for the article link. I've read and pondered that before. Lately, I've been soberly considering delaying formal math with my youngest. It feels insane to try and try and try and try with a kid whose brain isn't ready. And to what end? My frazzlement :cursing:  and the kid thinks he's horrible at math. 

 

I admit to being afraid to NOT do formal math. So much fear and worry is wrapped up in this homeschooling gig.

 

Yes, I do bring in whatever I'm able to from walking through MM with my oldest. We also dabble in MM but I don't find there's as much time or math stamina as I'd like. We are also using Process Skills in order to learn problem solving methods. My desire is to move him over to Math Mammoth completely but whenever I do it's tears. Crazy thing is that he WANTS Math Mammoth and claims to hate CLE. Huh. CLE has a great layout, is easy to use, and keeps the peace. Shrug. I just feel mad at it this week and wish all of my kiddos were brilliant at math.

 

The counsel and kind words have soothed my frayed self so thanks for sharing!

[Hunter]

Have you read Mathematics: An Instrument for Living Teaching?

http://simplycharlottemason.com/store/mathematics-an-instrument-for-living-teaching/

The eBook is $10.95. It really needs to be printed and taken notes in to be appreciated, so don't be too quick to download it, unless you can print it.

 

Charles McMurry wrote some really interesting things about arithmetic in the early 1900s in this book and in his Public School series. https://archive.org/details/specialmethodin12mcmugoog. He talks even then about how much time and effort is taken up by math for so little return, and how much is studied that doesn't need to be studied. He says the student only needs enough math to leaven the rest of the curriculum. Does you son have enough math skills to complete his science and other subjects? Is he able to function well enough in daily life? Math even then was about competition and testing, and not about what students NEEDED or were ready for.

[AimeeM]

I'm sorry. We love CLE and I find it strong conceptually - as does Engineer Hubby. It doesn't work for everybody though. Good luck!

[Hunter]

I'm sorry. We love CLE and I find it strong conceptually - as does Engineer Hubby. It doesn't work for everybody though. Good luck!

From what I have read about it, it's even MORE than I want. :lol: I'm just an oldschooler when it comes to math, and don't use anything published after Y2K unless it's about how math was taught before Y2K, or much earlier, like even before Y1K or Y0K. :lol:

 

I am just SO unimpressed with modern math teaching practices.

[AimeeM]

From what I have read about it, it's even MORE than I want. :lol: I'm just an oldschooler when it comes to math, and don't use anything published after Y2K unless it's about how math was taught before Y2K, or much earlier, like even before Y1K or Y0K. :lol:

 

I am just SO unimpressed with modern math teaching practices.

 

It's pretty darn traditional. My husband feels like it is what "he" was taught - courtesy Catholic school in the 70's and 80's; traditional, no-nonsense, straightforward math that doesn't make things "more complicated than they need be". He isn't impressed with "new math" either, lol.

[Mandylubug]

Why give him a MM end of year test? Naturally, he hasn't learned the material exactly like in MM and probably isn't quite fair for him to decide he's not understanding it based on another curriculum assessment.

 

I wanted to use MM and I tried with all 4 kids. It had poor teaching and not enough review for my kids. So, we switched to R&S and couldn't be happier. I would never assess their progress with a MM EOY test, though. Did CLE have a EOY assessment?

 

Eta: I've tried the "mean mom" and hated math route. Only gave me children that hated math and felt like failures. It is great that one child is loving MM and you love it. Just remember it is ok for your other son to learn differently and need a different curricula to learn as well.

[Mommy22alyns]

No, please don't inflict tears over math.  I've BTDT too.  Our kids are not all meant to be math geniuses!  I find CLE solid and very traditional.  But it saved math for us.  Rebecca went from thinking she was horrible at math and crying almost every lesson to feeling confident with NO tears.  A kid crying over a subject... it's just not worth it.

[abrightmom]

No, please don't inflict tears over math.  I've BTDT too.  Our kids are not all meant to be math geniuses!  I find CLE solid and very traditional.  But it saved math for us.  Rebecca went from thinking she was horrible at math and crying almost every lesson to feeling confident with NO tears.  A kid crying over a subject... it's just not worth it.

Thanks for saying so!

 

There are just times in this journey that the worries and fears overtake me. The nagging concerns bubble up and I question everything …. I realize I'm not alone and every Mom needs to be talked off the ledge once in a while. 

 

My kids are very different and OPINIONS about HOW to teach math vary so widely that I find myself stretched to the breaking point when I'm "low".  Perhaps I'm feeling a tad embarrassed now … 

 

TODAY I feel better  :coolgleamA:  and plan stay with CLE while still dabbling in MM as we've been doing. Shrug. Isn't that how it goes with homeschooling? Yesterday it was a crisis and I was MAD. Today, I have perspective and much of that is due to home educating Moms speaking into my situation. 

[abrightmom]

I'm sorry. We love CLE and I find it strong conceptually - as does Engineer Hubby. It doesn't work for everybody though. Good luck!

Honestly, I usually  :001_wub:  CLE Math and felt such gratitude for the peace it brought to this home. The past few weeks I've felt angry at it but it's likely been a scapegoat. Thanks for the encouragement! 

[Hunter]

abrightmom :grouphug:

[Perogi]

Thanks for saying so!

 

There are just times in this journey that the worries and fears overtake me. The nagging concerns bubble up and I question everything …. I realize I'm not alone and every Mom needs to be talked off the ledge once in a while. 

 

My kids are very different and OPINIONS about HOW to teach math vary so widely that I find myself stretched to the breaking point when I'm "low".  Perhaps I'm feeling a tad embarrassed now … 

 

TODAY I feel better  :coolgleamA:  and plan stay with CLE while still dabbling in MM as we've been doing. Shrug. Isn't that how it goes with homeschooling? Yesterday it was a crisis and I was MAD. Today, I have perspective and much of that is due to home educating Moms speaking into my situation.

I do this regularly, don't sweat it. And usually have a new perspective and feel embarrassed the next day lol Homeschooling is a huge responsibility and it comes with moments of panic. Most days the forums are wonderful and encouraging, but if I'm feeling insecure at all about what we're doing the forums can make me feel like I'm doing everything wrong :p

 

I'm glad you feel better and that today the forums have been an encouragement to you. It'll be someone else's turn tomorrow ;)

[Hunter]

I am a "write to learn" person. Even without input from other people, simply starting a thread and writing in it myself brings clarity. Sometimes after it is all said and done, I wish I could have figured things out in privacy, but that is not how my brain works things out.

 

Also, we are pack creatures. When we are feeling weak and unsure, we seek the companionship of others. We are more like chimps than orangoutangs That is how we were designed/evolved. I tell myself it's illogical to be ashamed of my design, even if modern society tells me I should be.

 

So when we are feeling unsure, we gather here and do the equivalent of groom like chimps. We pick the bugs and debris off each other, and hoot a bit. It's what we were designed to do. :grouphug: