Is there a 'lite' spiral math program? Using singapore and it's not working.

[StaceyE]

We pulled dd from public school last year at the beginning of 4th grade, where she was in their gifted math program. I purchased what she had been using at school, McGraw Hill's My Math and we worked through it for the remainder of the year. I felt like the lessons were over complicated, pages were littered with distracting graphics, and the pace didn't move quickly enough with lessons breaking concepts down into more steps then she needed.

 

For 5th grade, we switched to Primary Mathematics, starting with 4B and we've almost completed 5A. I use activities from the parent's guide to present new concepts, we practice a few problems together out of the textbook, and then I assign a handful of problems from the workbook. I have her complete all of the reviews and most of the word problems in the workbook. She finds both the practice problems following lessons and the word problems easy, but doesn't always do well on reviews.

 

She picks up concepts almost instantly and completing lots of practice problems would frustrate her because it would feel like busy work, but not practicing enough means it isn't staying with her as well as I would like. It's almost like she already understands what I'm showing her even though it hasn't been presented before, but then a couple of weeks later when we hit the review she needs me to guide her a bit with a hint before she remembers how to do that kind of problem. She'll say, "I don't remember how to do this" but with just a word or two from me, it comes back to her and she can successfully complete the problem. I considered pushing her through 6B and building in my own more frequent review problems by cutting apart the workbooks so that it is a bit more spiral and I may still do that. I like the simplicity and ease of using primary mathematics. DD REALLY wants to use something else, she just doesn't like it - lack of color is a complaint, but I'm sort of like, tough, we're not picking a math program based on the prettiness of the pages.

 

We also have Life of Fred that we'll pull out when she needs a break from PM, but I feel like it jumps around too much. She goes on Khan academy for fun because she likes the mastery challenges and earning badges and points. I *think* the perfect program would move through the content quickly, ask students to push their knowledge with challenging problems, provide more frequent review problems but not with a kill and drill sort of approach.

 

Suggestions? I feel very lost about this and I don't want to jump around. The other thought is to throw her into AoPS Intro to Prealgebra to see how she does and then add in extra stuff when she needs it. She seems to have a gift for math, but it is her least favorite subject which doesn't sit right with me.

[Cottonwood]

Both my kids have a serious gift for math but will tell you it's their least favorite subject of all, which I don't get either.

 

We are in Pre-A and from your description, you might look at Saxon.  It is referred to as kill and drill but it's a spiral, just 2 or 3 practice problems with the new concept, there is a new concept ea day and I would definitely say it moves quickly. My DD was considered extremely gifted in math when I took her out to homeschool last year, and I was shocked that math quickly became a huge problem here.  AoPs was a bust from the time we opened the book (she's just not a whole to parts/discovery/puzzler type of learner, instead she likes to be led along and taught the parts and then she understands the whole), so I just started picking programs to try .  Next came Saxon.  I didn't hold out ANY hopes for it b/c I had heard so much negative about it but still thought spiral was what she needed.  Found it cheap, went for it, and she really likes it.  At first, it was a struggle, and I considered switching again.  But I didn't.   She's almost finished with Algebra 1/2 and asked if I"d order Saxon Alg 1.  She knew I wasn't sure what program we'd use next but she told me to just go with Saxon.  She's gone from tons of sloppy mistakes and 40%, 50%... to a solid A in math.

 

I was advised on this forum that skipping around a lot of math programs could create confusion and that sometimes coming from public school, homeschooled math can be tricky to settle in to.  For us, that advice was very true.  So anyway, I thought Saxon was a very unlikely choice for us and as it turns out, it has turned her around and straightened things out in a wonderful way, so I have to suggest it!

[Mandy in TN]

Horizons?

[wapiti]

She picks up concepts almost instantly and completing lots of practice problems would frustrate her because it would feel like busy work, but not practicing enough means it isn't staying with her as well as I would like. It's almost like she already understands what I'm showing her even though it hasn't been presented before, but then a couple of weeks later when we hit the review she needs me to guide her a bit with a hint before she remembers how to do that kind of problem. She'll say, "I don't remember how to do this" but with just a word or two from me, it comes back to her and she can successfully complete the problem.

 

This is very similar to my very math-talented ds11.  It has taken me a long time to figure that out (um, until partway into AoPS Intro to Alg.  I feel like such an idiot this morning).   Big chunks of review don't work as well for him - he needs a little bit of review weekly at least if not more often.

 

I considered pushing her through 6B and building in my own more frequent review problems by cutting apart the workbooks so that it is a bit more spiral and I may still do that.

...

 I *think* the perfect program would move through the content quickly, ask students to push their knowledge with challenging problems, provide more frequent review problems but not with a kill and drill sort of approach.

 

I'd guess that it may be more irritating to try to switch at this point in SM.  If it were me, I'd continue adding review - even if that means hand-picking review problems (e.g., use tape flags on pages and circle problems).  It may make more sense to hold off on any change of program until she is ready for prealgebra.

 

AFAIK, there isn't much of a perfect program out there for this type of student.  I'd describe it as a need for challenging problems with regular review but not spiral organization of topic lessons.  I would avoid drill and kill as I think it would be counterproductive with this type of student.

 

FWIW, it just occurred to me this morning that Jacobs Algebra may be as close as you're going to get, in that it develops concepts well within the exercises *and* it also includes about 5 review exercises with each lesson.  It's a good alg 1 choice for younger students.  It's not as challenging for applications (which could be added later) as some other algebra texts but IMO it is not light on concept development/instruction.

 

Eta, there are a number of algebra texts that include a "mixed review" section in various places in the text, sometimes at the end of a chapter or sometimes at the end of a set of exercises.  Another option - I have a number of algebra texts and I find it easy to pick out problems from end-of-chapter reviews or extra practice sections at the back.

 

Still, I'd do a prealgebra first - which one is another question.  I love AoPS Prealgebra - definitely challenging and the problems are a lot more fun than other texts.  But, there too, you'd definitely want to schedule in some review, though that may be as simple as when and how you assign Alcumus (the on-line problem-solving program) or assign a problem or two from an earlier chapter review on some sort of regular basis.  **I think that the depth of the initial lesson affects how much review is necessary - the deeper and harder the lesson at the time, the less forgetting that seems to happen, though still, some amount of review has been necessary for my kids.

 

DD REALLY wants to use something else, she just doesn't like it - lack of color is a complaint, but I'm sort of like, tough, we're not picking a math program based on the prettiness of the pages.

 

I thought Singapore Standards was in color?  Are you using the US edition?

[mmpmelmack]

My son is younger then yours, but I have found a similar problem here. We have added a page a day from a math mammoth topic book to help review things. So right now we are working through multiplication and division 2, addition and subtraction 3, and place value 3. We finished up SM 3 two weeks ago, but are not moving forward until we complete multiplication and division 3, add and sub 4 and place value 4. When he was working all the programs together, he would do a page from one of the topic books, and then the SM lesson. It worked well for us.

[Crimson Wife]

Did you buy the U.S. edition? It sounds to me like you did based on the complaints of lack of review and lack of color. I would definitely recommend using the Standards edition rather than the U.S. edition to address those issues.

 

What we do in our house is M-Th regular lessons in Singapore and Fridays we always do reviews.

[StaceyE]

We are using the U.S. edition. I'll take a look at the standards edition, but after today's math lesson I'm thinking that moving into prealgebra is probably the best option. Maybe I'll look for a used copy of both Saxon and AoPS to see what works best.

 

Here was today's lesson:

To prepare, I cut paper plates up into fourths and had a stack of 10 sitting ready for her.

I told her we were going to start multiplying fractions - something she has never done before.

I wrote 10 x 1/4 on the board and started to hand her 10 of the 1/4 pieces so that she could physically see what I was asking her.

Before I could cross the room, she says "it's 21/2"

I'm like, how did you know that, we've never worked on multiplying fractions before. "I don't know." is her reply

So I continue through the entire section of multiplying fractions and each time she can give me the answer within 30 seconds, doing all of the work in her head.

 

I think that what happens with her is that once she has a solid conceptual understanding of the parts, she can put them together on her own. She understands multiplication and she understands fractions - so she can figure out how to multiple them without any help from me. It will be interesting to see how it goes with division of fractions next week, since she seems better at adding and multiplying mentally over subtracting and dividing of which she needs to do on paper.

 

I took a good look at the TOC for 5B and the only two concepts she hasn't work with yet are average and rate, the rest she has a good understanding of. Jumping into something new seems like a bad idea, but I can't see continuing either. This is when I feel unqualified as a homeschooling mom, I want to give her the greatest opportunities to excel but just don't know how.

[wapiti]

We are using the U.S. edition. I'll take a look at the standards edition, but after today's math lesson I'm thinking that moving into prealgebra is probably the best option. Maybe I'll look for a used copy of both Saxon and AoPS to see what works best.

 fractions next week, since she seems better at adding and multiplying mentally over subtracting and dividing of which she needs to do on paper.

 

 

Saxon and AoPS are opposites in terms of learning philosophy.  There are other options in the middle of that road.  She sounds fairly math-inclined

 

I took a good look at the TOC for 5B and the only two concepts she hasn't work with yet are average and rate, the rest she has a good understanding of. Jumping into something new seems like a bad idea, but I can't see continuing either. This is when I feel unqualified as a homeschooling mom, I want to give her the greatest opportunities to excel but just don't know how.

 

 

Then it doesn't make sense to buy all of 5B just for two concepts, though sometimes it's hard to tell from a TOC whether topic coverage includes additional depth that may be necessary.  I wouldn't make her repeat entire chapters on what she already knows, though certainly a few review pages might be in order.

 

After figuring out what prealgebra you want to go with, I'd then figure out what topics you'd like to cover beforehand, and maybe get MM blue topic books or something similar to just address those topics.  (For example, negative numbers are a prerequisite for AoPS Prealgebra.)  The more solid she is with fraction/decimal/percent arithmetic, the greater the range of prealgebra choices.

[Vida Winter]

I have been struggling with my 4th grader and math all year now. She was doing CLE for a few years and was very good at it but hated it. We switched to Singapore, was good at that too but hated it. The thing is, she is very good at math and has a natural talent -- just hates sitting down and doing it. We sat down and looked at samples online for a number of different math programs. She wanted a workbook, not too busy, and colorful. I told her whatever she chose was okay (among the vendors that I showed her) but that she would have to stick with it for several years, at least until high school, and not complain, just get it done. She chose BJU. It looks like a good solid program, and someone on the boards described it as "lite spiral." I think she needs a bit of spiral to keep skills fresh, but programs like CLE and Saxon are so heavily spiral that they are barely able to master topics.

Now that she has some ownership in this decision, we will proceed...

[Momling]

I've found it's worked well to use a mastery approach to math with a quick daily review. We've used the "math minutes" series. It's not profound or exciting but it takes a few minutes and is a good format to review. It *is* easy... Certainly easier than the corresponding SM scope/sequence that we used, but that's kind of the point... My kids get their challenge from the lesson and the review just keeps old stuff fresh. Also good for test prep...

[StaceyE]

The fact that AoPS and Saxon are very different from each other might be helpful in figuring out which best meets her needs. I think I understand it as Saxon being incremental and spiral, with lots of practice problems - I'm not sure that I understand exactly how AoPS works.

 

My instinct tells me she isn't going to like Saxon. I've printed out the AoPS pre-test for prealgebra and looking at it, I think she can probably complete all of the problems with the exception of two word problems - so I think she's ready even without using singapore 5B. Looking at the Saxon placement tests, she would fall into the 7/6 level and not be ready for algebra 1/2, but some of it would be repeat and some new. I'm leaning towards AoPS. If we come across a concept that is foreign to her then we can always use Kahn as a backup.

 

AAHHH :willy_nilly:  - sometimes I think it would be easiest to order it all, let her try everything, and go from there. Don't think DH would be very happy with that!

[wapiti]

The fact that AoPS and Saxon are very different from each other might be helpful in figuring out which best meets her needs. I think I understand it as Saxon being incremental and spiral, with lots of practice problems - I'm not sure that I understand exactly how AoPS works.

 

There are a lot of threads on AoPS Prealgebra that you may want to read.

 

Each AoPS lesson starts out with problems, the answers to which teach the lesson, little by little.  Then the lesson problems are followed by full solutions.  After that, are exercises.  The philosophy of learning involves problem-solving from a big-picture perspective of the concepts.  The organization is mastery.  For a better understanding of the thinking behind this, check out the author's talk here.  It's a very challenging program.

[ktgrok]

She sounds a bit like my son, figures it out easily, but isn't getting enough actual regular practice to make it automatic. He needs daily review to keep those things automatic, so he doesn't have to "figure them out" again each time. For us that has meant CLE, but Saxon or Horizons would also fit. 

[kbutton]

We are using the U.S. edition. I'll take a look at the standards edition, but after today's math lesson I'm thinking that moving into prealgebra is probably the best option. Maybe I'll look for a used copy of both Saxon and AoPS to see what works best.

 

Here was today's lesson:

To prepare, I cut paper plates up into fourths and had a stack of 10 sitting ready for her.

I told her we were going to start multiplying fractions - something she has never done before.

I wrote 10 x 1/4 on the board and started to hand her 10 of the 1/4 pieces so that she could physically see what I was asking her.

Before I could cross the room, she says "it's 21/2"

I'm like, how did you know that, we've never worked on multiplying fractions before. "I don't know." is her reply

So I continue through the entire section of multiplying fractions and each time she can give me the answer within 30 seconds, doing all of the work in her head.

 

I think that what happens with her is that once she has a solid conceptual understanding of the parts, she can put them together on her own. She understands multiplication and she understands fractions - so she can figure out how to multiple them without any help from me. It will be interesting to see how it goes with division of fractions next week, since she seems better at adding and multiplying mentally over subtracting and dividing of which she needs to do on paper.

 

I took a good look at the TOC for 5B and the only two concepts she hasn't work with yet are average and rate, the rest she has a good understanding of. Jumping into something new seems like a bad idea, but I can't see continuing either. This is when I feel unqualified as a homeschooling mom, I want to give her the greatest opportunities to excel but just don't know how.

 

My son is like this. Using the Intensive Practice book has helped tremendously--it gives challenging review that reveals how deep (or not) his initial understanding is. When we go back to the TB, he thinks the TB is a breeze. The IP books are not colorful, but maybe you can find something enticing for her to do as a reward for finishing her boring looking page.

 

[StaceyE]

There are a lot of threads on AoPS Prealgebra that you may want to read.

 

Each AoPS lesson starts out with problems, the answers to which teach the lesson, little by little.  Then the lesson problems are followed by full solutions.  After that, are exercises.  The philosophy of learning involves problem-solving from a big-picture perspective of the concepts.  The organization is mastery.  For a better understanding of the thinking behind this, check out the author's talk here.  It's a very challenging program.

 

Thank you!! A long but good read. THIS, this is what I'm looking for. If she has pieces she can figure things out all on her own - I want to capitalize on that skill and deepen it. She is good at math, but she is bored, frustrated and somewhat belligerent about the whole thing. She has a unique way of thinking and finding answers without being taught and I want her to be able to capitalize on that. Off to Amazon I go.

[wapiti]

Thank you!! A long but good read. THIS, this is what I'm looking for. If she has pieces she can figure things out all on her own - I want to capitalize on that skill and deepen it. She is good at math, but she is bored, frustrated and somewhat belligerent about the whole thing. She has a unique way of thinking and finding answers without being taught and I want her to be able to capitalize on that. Off to Amazon I go.

 

It's usually cheaper to buy from AoPS directly though I haven't looked lately.  Also, don't forget about the negative number prerequisite.  (FWIW, in our house, especially for the more difficult lessons, we usually do the lesson problems together, socratically, on a white board.  Eta, I think that the way we use it may contribute to my kids' need for more review; I'm not sure.  On the other hand, I am sure that to lean in the other direction, with a program that focuses on drill of procedures, does not help my kids' retention.)

 

AoPS Prealgebra has some especially deep and challenging chapters.  With my kids (I have used this text for three kids so far), they still did need some review - not every day, but more than waiting until the end of the book like I tried to :tongue_smilie:.

 

Eta, don't forget about the videos - fun and free.  If only I could get my kids to watch them.