Outlining cirriculum anyone?

[newlifemom]

Has anyone here used any actual cirriculum to teach outlining. Dd is in 5th grade and will start working from Kingfisher. Want to make sure she is ready for it. Any suggestions?

[susie in tx]

Remedia Publications makes one that I like.

 

http://rempub.com/Details.cfm?ProdId=3859

 

It's recommended in one of the WTM books. So is 30 Lessons in Outlining, but it's out of print and very hard to find. I also think that the Rem Pub one is better suited for a 5th grader.

[dalynnrmc]

Remedia Publications makes one that I like.

 

http://rempub.com/Details.cfm?ProdId=3859

 

 

Absolutely. We've been using these with my 4th grader, and they are excellent. Very thorough. Highly recommend. :D

[newlifemom]

Thank you. I was trying to see them and find out if they were fluff or not. I appreciate your input.

[Peela]

Well, just to put in my 2 cents, I bought those two books expecting to have trouble with my reluctant writer when he started outlining, but I did find the books fluff. In the end, it seemed like a waste of time, and teaching outlining in 5th grade straight from a book was not difficult at all, it turned out.

 

However, I wouldn't recommend outlining from Kingfisher, and I believe SWB no longer recommend that either (I read it somewhere!). The paragraphs are already very condensed, it is not easy to outline from. Many people on these boards have found alternatives over the years I have been here, after having difficulties with KHE.

[newlifemom]

Well, just to put in my 2 cents, I bought those two books expecting to have trouble with my reluctant writer when he started outlining, but I did find the books fluff. In the end, it seemed like a waste of time, and teaching outlining in 5th grade straight from a book was not difficult at all, it turned out.

 

However, I wouldn't recommend outlining from Kingfisher, and I believe SWB no longer recommend that either (I read it somewhere!). The paragraphs are already very condensed, it is not easy to outline from. Many people on these boards have found alternatives over the years I have been here, after having difficulties with KHE.

 

Any idea where you read that. It make sense b/c last year I had a very hard time trying to teach two sixth grade girls to outline. I am assuming there is another history to outline from? Any suggestions? Thanks. :001_smile:

[Matryoshka]

I used this book to teach outlining to my kids last year (4th grade).

 

It's very step-by-step. The lessons are all right in the book, but at the end of the year I had them research and outline a short report using what they'd learned and they did very well. Still have to work a bit on synthesizing introductions and conclusions, but on the mechanics of outlining I thought it did a very good job.

[Colleen in NS]

Any idea where you read that. It make sense b/c last year I had a very hard time trying to teach two sixth grade girls to outline. I am assuming there is another history to outline from? Any suggestions? Thanks. :001_smile:

 

The whole "outlining from Kingfisher History Encyclopedia" thing has been talked about a lot on the boards for a couple of years now. I noticed it because I had bought KF to use with my upcoming 5th grader, too. Now I see why some people don't like to use it. Anyway, I changed my 5th grade plan to include outlining from SOTW instead. Wherever dd7 is in SOTW, I have her narrate it, and have ds10 outline 5 or 6 paragraphs from the non-fiction sections of the same chapter (SOTW1 has a lot of fiction stories included in it). Then I have him proceed on with the corresponding KF section to do the rest of his work (timeline dates, picking topics for further study, comparing the map to the globe, etc.). And if you use SOTW, and want to know how SOTW and KF coordinate, Christine on these boards is who has a chart on her blog. It saved me hours of figuring!

 

hth

[dalynnrmc]

Well, just to put in my 2 cents, I bought those two books expecting to have trouble with my reluctant writer when he started outlining, but I did find the books fluff. In the end, it seemed like a waste of time, and teaching outlining in 5th grade straight from a book was not difficult at all, it turned out.

 

My main problem with it, at first, was simply that it did not provide enough practice. So, we learned the lesson from the page, and then turned to short stories. I happen to have quite a few ps reader texts, and we simply performed the "find the main idea of the paragraph" exercises in various places of appropriate level stories until he finally "got" it. Then we moved to the next lesson in the RP book. *shrug*

 

Worked really well for us, but my son is pretty analytically minded. He does have some language comprehension issues, though, which make things like finding the main idea extremely difficult, and partially thanks to using these books he is now on par with his age. (Most of his academics are way ahead, but with this we're happy with age-level!)

 

As always, ymmv. ;)

[Colleen in NS]

Well, just to put in my 2 cents, I bought those two books expecting to have trouble with my reluctant writer when he started outlining, but I did find the books fluff. In the end, it seemed like a waste of time, and teaching outlining in 5th grade straight from a book was not difficult at all, it turned out.

 

Peela,

 

This is why I've not looked at those books, because I wondered if it might be fairly easy to teach outlining on my own (with the help of our R&S grammars, and SWB's explanations on the CD). In theory it does seem pretty easy to me, but I am wondering how you started off. We are doing one level outlining, and I will say to ds, "Pick out the main idea of this paragraph. You don't have to include every detail, just the most important idea, and put it into a sentence." I'm finding sometimes it's easy to pick it out, other times, it's not. What types of questions or prompts do you give your kids to get them started at this level?

[Homeschooling6]

Remedia Publications makes one that I like.

 

http://rempub.com/Details.cfm?ProdId=3859

 

It's recommended in one of the WTM books. So is 30 Lessons in Outlining, but it's out of print and very hard to find. I also think that the Rem Pub one is better suited for a 5th grader.

 

I just purchased this and can't wait to start with my 10yr. old son.

[Colleen in NS]

So, we learned the lesson from the page, and then turned to short stories. I happen to have quite a few ps reader texts, and we simply performed the "find the main idea of the paragraph" exercises in various places of appropriate level stories

 

How do these books teach you to find the main idea? What types of questions do they use to guide your thinking? What are the exercises like? (I've never seen these books, and am trying to teach outlining on my own, but need a bit of help)

[Homeschooling6]

The whole "outlining from Kingfisher History Encyclopedia" thing has been talked about a lot on the boards for a couple of years now. I noticed it because I had bought KF to use with my upcoming 5th grader, too. Now I see why some people don't like to use it. Anyway, I changed my 5th grade plan to include outlining from SOTW instead. Wherever dd7 is in SOTW, I have her narrate it, and have ds10 outline 5 or 6 paragraphs from the non-fiction sections of the same chapter (SOTW1 has a lot of fiction stories included in it). Then I have him proceed on with the corresponding KF section to do the rest of his work (timeline dates, picking topics for further study, comparing the map to the globe, etc.). And if you use SOTW, and want to know how SOTW and KF coordinate, Christine on these boards is who has a chart on her blog. It saved me hours of figuring!

 

hth

 

I tried finding some old threads regarding outlining something other than Kingfiher and couldn't find them.

 

Also do you have a link to Christine's blog. I tried finding that too.

 

I'm so glad I read this thread I was going to have my son outline from Kingfisher.

 

One last question. Where is a link about SWB revised WTM book. I tried looking for that too:glare: I feel so out of the loop;)

 

Thanks!

[Colleen in NS]

I tried finding some old threads regarding outlining something other than Kingfiher and couldn't find them.

 

Also do you have a link to Christine's blog. I tried finding that too.

 

I'm so glad I read this thread I was going to have my son outline from Kingfisher.

 

One last question. Where is a link about SWB revised WTM book. I tried looking for that too:glare: I feel so out of the loop;)

 

Thanks!

 

Christine's blog http://corefoundations.wordpress.com/scheds-english-and-history/- scroll down the page to the history and geography section, and click on the SOTW and KHE and Usborne history book (can't remember the initials) document. It's so thorough!

 

Hold on, I'm going to search some more and I'll come back and edit...

 

OK here is a thread I started http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17598&highlight=outlining+kingfisher

 

If you just skip my original post and it's thinking out loud nature, scroll down to the post mcconnellboys wrote on 04-02-2008 (her 2nd post I think) - she explains in wonderful detail the difficulties of outlining KF. Then, scroll down further to SWB's reply. She mentions how KF is fine for listing historical facts, but for outlining to follow a writer's train of thought, KF is not so easy. And that's the kind of outlining she is talking about in her writing CD - seeing how a writer develops an idea in a paragraph.

 

Here's a quote I found about the new WTM book: "To answer your last question, a revised version of WTM is coming out in Feb. 2009. I expect they will outline their new recommendations for language arts based on their new programs (and probably others as well).

__________________

Beth

 

Mom to dd10 and dd6 " That's from WABeth.

[WTMCassandra]

I used this book this past spring. I liked it OK, but I wasn't jumping in circles about it. It took a little pressure off me, but they only needed about the first half of the book before they started writing their own simple outlines. Honestly, I don't think you HAVE to do it or anything.

[Homeschooling6]

Christine's blog http://corefoundations.wordpress.com/scheds-english-and-history/- scroll down the page to the history and geography section, and click on the SOTW and KHE and Usborne history book (can't remember the initials) document. It's so thorough!

 

Hold on, I'm going to search some more and I'll come back and edit...

 

OK here is a thread I started http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17598&highlight=outlining+kingfisher

 

If you just skip my original post and it's thinking out loud nature, scroll down to the post mcconnellboys wrote on 04-02-2008 (her 2nd post I think) - she explains in wonderful detail the difficulties of outlining KF. Then, scroll down further to SWB's reply. She mentions how KF is fine for listing historical facts, but for outlining to follow a writer's train of thought, KF is not so easy. And that's the kind of outlining she is talking about in her writing CD - seeing how a writer develops an idea in a paragraph.

 

Thanks Colleen. This was very sweet of you to find the links and info.

 

Blessings,

[Peela]

Peela,

 

This is why I've not looked at those books, because I wondered if it might be fairly easy to teach outlining on my own (with the help of our R&S grammars, and SWB's explanations on the CD). In theory it does seem pretty easy to me, but I am wondering how you started off. We are doing one level outlining, and I will say to ds, "Pick out the main idea of this paragraph. You don't have to include every detail, just the most important idea, and put it into a sentence." I'm finding sometimes it's easy to pick it out, other times, it's not. What types of questions or prompts do you give your kids to get them started at this level?

 

I didn't mean to completely put down the remedial outlining books- I just dont think they are needed for most kids, and I seem to remember in TWTM they were recommended for children who have difficulty, not for everyone. That was more my point- if your child actually does have distinct difficulty, then they may be good, but you don't need to anticipate difficulty.

 

I do think that years of oral and written narrations help with outlining, because they help a child put the main essence of the narrative in their own words. I would have them do oral narrations at least if they haven't, before starting with outlining.

 

But I taught my son outlining simply by going over passages of writing, paragraph by paragraph, with him, and asking him to tell me what the main point or essence of the paragraph is about. (That is not the same as trying to summarise the whole paragraph into one sentence, by the way). Now, he might get a different answer to what I would give, but overall, he was pretty good. So then I would help him write that in a full sentence. After several sessions of us doing it together, he was fine at doing it himself.

I think it might be inherently satisfying for a reluctant writer to put something wordy into a succinct sentence, so he has never complained about outlining, while he does complain about other writing.

 

I think, Colleen, I just kept helping until my son got the gist. There is no magic formula and yes some paragraphs are harder than others. Sometimes I would find it hard myself. That can be more about what you are outlining than the process out outlining. Somewhere SWB (maybe on that online conference months ago? ) mentioned using library books for outlining. She never said use SOTW that I have seen, and I tried SOTW and didn't like it much for outlining.

 

I have used books that have lots of subheadings and clear paragraphs without too much information in them. I actually used a book for Australian history, rather than our World history, to teach outlining, because this particular book seemed ideal, and it was. I also moved pretty quickly to 2 level outlining because this book seemed ideal to do that with, as have subsequent books I have used. I tend to do parallel history streams, and my son outlines for Australian history and writes narrations, reports etc for World history.

 

Not sure if that helps.

[Colleen in NS]

asking him to tell me what the main point or essence of the paragraph is about. (That is not the same as trying to summarise the whole paragraph into one sentence, by the way).

 

I knew it wasn't about trying to summarize the whole paragraph in one sentence, but I couldn't figure out how to communicate that to him so he would understand. What you said in the quote above does help - maybe I can tell him to tell me the main idea or essence is, in a word or two, or a phrase instead of a sentence. So he can zero in on it, without having to come up with a sentence at the same time. Sounds like you break it down into two parts - OK, now that I'm typing that, I see what you are saying - say the main idea first, THEN put it into a sentence. This IS helpful!

 

Yes, I remember you mentioning the library books rec. from that online conference - I may veer off from SOTW to use other books or the encyclopedia, just haven't had a chance yet. Right now it's all I can do to keep his attention on the task at hand, rather than searching for a book - I can just grab SOTW, LOL! But I get it now, you find books that ARE easy to outline, because they would be the ones that you would WANT your child to imitate the writing in, right? Because they ARE clearly written, clearly enough that you can break them apart again.

 

Thank you!