bluedarling Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 OK, based on recommendations on this board I started my two boys on Foerester Algebra last month. Oldest was less than half way through MUS Algebra, and 2nd child almost finished with MUS Algebra. 2nd son is breezing through Foerester so far...mostly review. Oldest is really struggling with word problems...he spends like 2 hours per problem! He does eventually get them, but it takes him a LONG time to process what it is asking for. I try to help, but he doesn't always follow, and then I make him go do the problem on his own without my notes, and he says it just takes him too long. He is avoiding math and not progressing. Should I "adapt" Foerester, or send him back to MUS and have him complete that first? Or just do MUS? He really wants to start dual enrollment next year, and wants to get through Algebra and Geometry before then. (Planning to get electronics AS degree, get a job, then possibly pursue further education from there.) If I should "adapt" Foerester for him, any suggestions on how to do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gil Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Is it possible for him to fore go the word problems for now? If he skips the word problems, how does he do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 OK, based on recommendations on this board I started my two boys on Foerester Algebra last month. Oldest was less than half way through MUS Algebra, and 2nd child almost finished with MUS Algebra. 2nd son is breezing through Foerester so far...mostly review. Oldest is really struggling with word problems...he spends like 2 hours per problem! He does eventually get them, but it takes him a LONG time to process what it is asking for. I try to help, but he doesn't always follow, and then I make him go do the problem on his own without my notes, and he says it just takes him too long. He is avoiding math and not progressing. Should I "adapt" Foerester, or send him back to MUS and have him complete that first? Or just do MUS? He really wants to start dual enrollment next year, and wants to get through Algebra and Geometry before then. (Planning to get electronics AS degree, get a job, then possibly pursue further education from there.) If I should "adapt" Foerester for him, any suggestions on how to do that? Is it possible for him to fore go the word problems for now? If he skips the word problems, how does he do?The difference between MUS and Foerster is actually being able to use the concepts you are learning. MUS is very "solve this equation" based. The application problems are simple and all replicate each other and the examples. Foerster, otoh, expects students to understand the concepts being taught and be able to apply concepts to unique situations. The odd even consecutive problems tend to be set up similarly, but the problems over all are definitely not plug and chug. Knowing how to factor x^2+10x+25 is an absolutely pointless skill without being able to use it IRL situations. I know nothing about an electronics degree, but assuming that they have to understand electricity, I would think at the bare minimum he would need to be able to master alg based physics. He will need to be able to apply what he is learning. Moving forward without actually understanding the concepts will not benefit him. He would be better served going back and mastering concepts in order to apply them before moving forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 If he can't do Foerster's problems because they're too hard, he's not ready for dual enrollment. He needs the word problems for electronics. It is worth spending time on them. Math is useless without word problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 If he's doing well with the rest of Foerster, I'd continue using it. For word problems, I'd sit with him and help him do them. Try to find pairs of problems that are similar so that you can take the lead on the first one and then let him take the lead (with help as needed) on the second one. I would not let him struggle with a single problem for two hours. You may find that after several chapters he gets more confident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluedarling Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Well, I read him some of these replies, and he's arguing its not that the problems are too hard, its that they take too long. Should I reduce the number of word problems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vito Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 If your child is already well into high school and he is struggling with word problems then: Don’t focus on being different when someone lacks “conceptual understandingâ€. Everything is plug and chug, including high school material. Google language phrases that translate into math expressions/ equations. Also in a particular topic of any textbook try to elicit how language phrases translate into math expressions/ equations discussed in that topic. Many people think they have “conceptual understandingâ€. In reality they just practiced properly, and now they subconsciously translate word problems into known plug and chug patterns. Visit the school your child wants to get his electronics degree from. Find out in detail what math prerequisites are. Also, get the syllabi of the courses that your child will take first year and retrieve math material that is used there. About Foerster, MUS, etc. There are many books. Some harder, some easier. Find the one that is easy. Let him do it fast. Find another that is somewhat harder and do it fast. And so on. Long = hard. In any given one book some topics (or some problems in a topic) could be harder, some easier. Skip the hard ones for now, do fast the easy ones (no repetitions). Come back to the hard ones later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine State Sue Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 If he can't do Foerster's problems because they're too hard, he's not ready for dual enrollment. :iagree: Ds commented about the CC students who couldn't handle the word problems. Foerster's is terrific preparation. If he's doing well with the rest of Foerster, I'd continue using it. For word problems, I'd sit with him and help him do them. Try to find pairs of problems that are similar so that you can take the lead on the first one and then let him take the lead (with help as needed) on the second one. I would not let him struggle with a single problem for two hours. You may find that after several chapters he gets more confident. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Well, I read him some of these replies, and he's arguing its not that the problems are too hard, its that they take too long. Should I reduce the number of word problems? I have had 5 kids go through MUS's alg and geometry AND Foerster's alg. There is absolutely NO comparison between the two books. We treat MUS as pre-alg/intro to Foerster's alg. The way we go through the book is basically odd or even or every other odd (in the really high number problem sections). Going through 1 section per day until we hit the word problems. My kids have done every single word problem in the Foerster books they have completed. (I don't know enough about math to know what to include eliminate, so they do them all. ;) ) They do 3-5 word problems/day until we finish the entire word problem section. So the word problem sections take somewhere around a week to complete. I have approached it this way over and over and have never had any difficulty finishing the book in a yr. FWIW, if it is taking him 2 hours to do a Foerster word problem, he doesn't have solid enough of a base of understanding. Foerster word problems take typically anywhere from 5-20 mins max to solve. FWIW, I disagree with Vito's post simply because Foerster does an incredibly job of teaching students how to understand what problems are asking and problem-solving strategies for setting up the problems. So, I wonder if he isn't spending enough time with the chpt and is relying on his understanding of equations from MUS. B/c simply solving equations will translate from MUS to Foerster. The problem-solving skills are what you will find missing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluedarling Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 The math requirement for the ATA degree (I said it was an AS...oops) is pre-calculus. That is not the pre-req, that is the only required math course! The 2-year degree is almost entirely electronics classes, which start with no pre-requisites. It requires 2 semesters of English, and one humanities course. (Unless he changed his mind and decided to go pre-engineering, but I'm not encouraging him to do that based on his math troubles!) Unfortunately, this child doesn't do anything FAST, but he does things well (perfectionistic). He's an A student, but everything takes him 3X as long as typical students (Aspergers). Math isn't the only subject he's slow in, but its the only one he's currently fighting. Hmmm...based on do easy, then hard...skip all the word problems, then come back to them later? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluedarling Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 I have had 5 kids go through MUS's alg and geometry AND Foerster's alg. There is absolutely NO comparison between the two books. We treat MUS as pre-alg/intro to Foerster's alg. I just want to point out this child did not finish MUS algebra (only got about half-way). The way we go through the book is basically odd or even or every other odd (in the really high number problem sections). Going through 1 section per day until we hit the word problems. My kids have done every single word problem in the Foerster books they have completed. (I don't know enough about math to know what to include eliminate, so they do them all. ;) ) They do 3-5 word problems/day until we finish the entire word problem section. So the word problem sections take somewhere around a week to complete. I have currently assigned 2 days for every other word problem...he got through 3 of the 8 problems before quitting altogether. I have approached it this way over and over and have never had any difficulty finishing the book in a yr. FWIW, if it is taking him 2 hours to do a Foerster word problem, he doesn't have solid enough of a base of understanding. Foerster word problems take typically anywhere from 5-20 mins max to solve. We are trying to finish in half a year! He wants to have geometry so he can take robotics courses...I think he saw it as a pre-req for something he wants to take (online maybe...not at the cc.) He's trying to do MUS Geometry on top of Foerester's Algebra, and choosing to do the geometry and not the Algebra despite my instructions to priorittize Algebra. He's choosing the easier material! FWIW, I disagree with Vito's post simply because Foerster does an incredibly job of teaching students how to understand what problems are asking and problem-solving strategies for setting up the problems. So, I wonder if he isn't spending enough time with the chpt and is relying on his understanding of equations from MUS. B/c simply solving equations will translate from MUS to Foerster. The problem-solving skills are what you will find missing. I will check, and make sure we are going over the textbook chapter together before I help him with the exercises! I really don't know how much attention he's giving the chapter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 We are trying to finish in half a year! He wants to have geometry so he can take robotics courses...I think he saw it as a pre-req for something he wants to take (online maybe...not at the cc.) He's trying to do MUS Geometry on top of Foerester's Algebra, and choosing to do the geometry and not the Algebra despite my instructions to priorittize Algebra. He's choosing the easier material! There is absolutely NO WAY I would let a child do this. Alg is foundational to every single math and science. Rushing through it to get to a robotics course is not going to serve him well in the long run. My kids have completed both MUS's alg and geo in a single yr w/o any difficulty. But, then they have taken a full school yr or until end of Feb/middle of Mar (depends on the child) to complete Foerster's. Then they do an additional full yr of geometry with a standard geo text. MUS's program is really just a brush the surface of concepts vs. fully engaging in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 The math requirement for the ATA degree (I said it was an AS...oops) is pre-calculus. That is not the pre-req, that is the only required math course! The 2-year degree is almost entirely electronics classes, which start with no pre-requisites. It requires 2 semesters of English, and one humanities course. (Unless he changed his mind and decided to go pre-engineering, but I'm not encouraging him to do that based on his math troubles!) Unfortunately, this child doesn't do anything FAST, but he does things well (perfectionistic). He's an A student, but everything takes him 3X as long as typical students (Aspergers). Math isn't the only subject he's slow in, but its the only one he's currently fighting. Hmmm...based on do easy, then hard...skip all the word problems, then come back to them later? I do not think vito has given you good advice here. I would definitely not skip the word problems and come back later. But if there are an unusually large number of word problems in a section, I would see no problem spacing them out over a few days. We are trying to finish in half a year! He wants to have geometry so he can take robotics courses...I think he saw it as a pre-req for something he wants to take (online maybe...not at the cc.) He's trying to do MUS Geometry on top of Foerester's Algebra, and choosing to do the geometry and not the Algebra despite my instructions to priorittize Algebra. He's choosing the easier material! Taking two math classes at once may be too difficult. I don't see anything wrong with finishing MUS geometry before going back to Algebra, but I think that finishing in half a year is an overly ambitious goal except for a strongly motivated and talented student. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vito Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 About prerequisites: Sorry for not being clear. I mostly meant not formal prerequisites, i.e. courses “Algebraâ€/ “Precalculusâ€, but specific material in very detail. Precalculus is a very general term. MIT needs precalculus too. For example, if this ATA degree program has math classes in the first year, then what are they in detail? what specific math knowledge does your son need to succeed in them? Since you mentioned the program does not have math classes at all then you can look into the syllabi of electronics classes of that program. For example, Electric Circuits courses would require thorough knowledge of fractions, proportions, elementary algebraic manipulations etc. You can visit the school, find instructors from that program, visit their office, and ask, find students on campus from that program, chat and ask. Try to get assignments/tests from specific courses in that program. Elicit the kind of math that those assignments require. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vito Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 About being FAST. If your child spends more than 10 min. to think and get ready to verbally clearly succinctly outline a solution for _any_ problem (take 15 for Asperger) then this means that you chose a wrong textbook for him. (this excludes Olympiad/AOPS kids; your child has other priorities and goals). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkT Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Well, I read him some of these replies, and he's arguing its not that the problems are too hard, its that they take too long. Should I reduce the number of word problems? How long does it take him to do one word problem? More than 15 minutes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluedarling Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 How long does it take him to do one word problem? More than 15 minutes? Yes...he says 2 hours, but I think its more like 30-45 minutes per problem....2 hours is probably for the day's assignment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkT Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I do not think vito has given you good advice here. I would definitely not skip the word problems and come back later. But if there are an unusually large number of word problems in a section, I would see no problem spacing them out over a few days. Taking two math classes at once may be too difficult. I don't see anything wrong with finishing MUS geometry before going back to Algebra, but I think that finishing in half a year is an overly ambitious goal except for a strongly motivated and talented student. How do you complete Geometry without Algebra I knowledge? That Geometry class may be suspect. (My son is currently doing Saxon Geometry at his charter, plenty of Algebra in it, and some word problems). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkT Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Yes...he says 2 hours, but I think its more like 30-45 minutes per problem....2 hours is probably for the day's assignment. That's a lot, do you know any good math tutors? Understanding how to solve word problems is a critical component of Algebra. Maybe Kahn Academy has something. Personally I would slow down on the Geometry and concentrate more on the Algebra. (My mother has been teaching (now tutoring) HS math for decades and I have learned a few things from her along the way :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 How do you complete Geometry without Algebra I knowledge? That Geometry class may be suspect. (My son is currently doing Saxon Geometry at his charter, plenty of Algebra in it, and some word problems). The OP says he has already completed a fair amount of MUS Alg I. Clearly he's not running into difficulties, otherwise he wouldn't be prioritizing it as easier. Foerster's algebra is very much more challenging than MSU algebra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 How do you complete Geometry without Algebra I knowledge? That Geometry class may be suspect.). Bc MUS's geo is really like a pre- geo. It is basically learning the theorems and simple concepts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluedarling Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 That's a lot, do you know any good math tutors? Understanding how to solve word problems is a critical component of Algebra. Maybe Kahn Academy has something. Personally I would slow down on the Geometry and concentrate more on the Algebra. (My mother has been teaching (now tutoring) HS math for decades and I have learned a few things from her along the way :) Hee, hee....I actually thought of trying to tutor Algebra, myself! I LOVE it! And I enjoy helping him...there are other subjects I feel less able to help teach! But...I always struggled with word problems, too (I was taking Geometry in 8th grade at the high school, but had to stay after school in 8th grade for word problem help because I apparently hadn't passed some test...despite the fact I had won a regional competition in math!).....its possible I'm not the clearest tutor in that regard. I'll consider it. I was not requiring Geometry at all...he was pushing himself in that regard. I've made it clear that Algebra needs to be the priority. I guess I can take away the Geometry book...but I was actually proud of him for taking the iniative...that's not something I've seen before! I had already linked khan academy videos for each chapter....but perhaps I did not address the word problems! I'll check that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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