high school math for a dyslexic/dysgraphic 4th grader with delusions of grandeur

[Pen]

See posts like this make me feel like I am screwing up ds and should just jump him to pre-algebra already. He has had ratios, fractions, and decimal relationships since age 7 but he messes up the computations constantly. I'm not even sure what I would teach him about these relationships because he already understands them better than I do but he doesn't have the procedures down. Interesting. We are about to finish up our current math anyway, I need to think more about it.

 

He could be working on both at the same time perhaps. 

[OneStepAtATime]

See posts like this make me feel like I am screwing up ds and should just jump him to pre-algebra already. He has had ratios, fractions, and decimal relationships since age 7 but he messes up the computations constantly. I'm not even sure what I would teach him about these relationships because he already understands them better than I do but he doesn't have the procedures down. Interesting. We are about to finish up our current math anyway, I need to think more about it.

Have you ever had him just talk his way through a problem while you scribed for him on a dry erase?  Could there be a working memory issue with trying to keep it all straight in his head while he processes the math?  You might try doing some pre-algebra with him that way and see if he does o.k....

 

On the Challenge Math book that we just got (thanks to great recommendations here), DS is only writing down on the dry erase board, not in the book.  I am reading the problem with him and then he is doing everything verbally unless he needs to notate something.  Then he uses a dry erase or I write it on the dry erase for anything he needs to process.  It frees up his brain to focus on the actual math processes and he really enjoys it.  We don't do that for all math, but for quite a bit of it, and it works out much better for DS.

[FairProspects]

Working memory is pretty good. Concepts easily. Algebra, easy. Single variable equations, double variable equations, negative numbers, all pieces of cake for him. Long division? Total bugaboo. Fraction simplification, measurement conversion, same. He does what I call "dyslexic errors". He writes down 50 when he meant to write down 500. He writes down the wrong exponent. He forgets what he was doing in the middle of a long division problem because the color of the robin outside the window is so intriguing or he decides that doodling about "zen" is a far better use of his time. He is just young and can't focus his brain or think procedurally at all but if you CAN get him to focus and not take about 30 minutes to calculate a problem, he is dynamite.

[wapiti]

Working memory is pretty good. Concepts easily. Algebra, easy. Single variable equations, double variable equations, negative numbers, all pieces of cake for him. Long division? Total bugaboo. Fraction simplification, measurement conversion, same. He does what I call "dyslexic errors". He writes down 50 when he meant to write down 500. He writes down the wrong exponent. He forgets what he was doing in the middle of a long division problem because the color of the robin outside the window is so intriguing or he decides that doodling about "zen" is a far better use of his time. He is just young and can't focus his brain or think procedurally at all but if you CAN get him to focus and not take about 30 minutes to calculate a problem, he is dynamite.

 

I might try to have two math categories, one to keep moving forward through higher-level work, and another for the weak topics, analogous to the scenario where a younger kid can't remember math facts but can learn concepts easily, and so they work on math facts on the side.  He sounds very strong with concepts, beyond prealgebra perhaps and well into alg 1?  For moving forward, fraction simplification would trouble me more than long division or measurement conversion - I would try to find a way to use his strengths to improve that.  (E.g., there are aops videos on fractions for ch 4 of the prealgebra; we didn't use that but then it was stuff that ds could already do.  Might be worth looking at them to see if it speaks to him, trying to bring the big picture to your ds?  I don't know - not my favorite chapter but I've never looked at it from an angle of good with concepts/bad with fraction simplification computation.)  How much can you work around his "dyslexic errors" by scribing for him?  What happens if you point out those errors as they happen - help or hurt?  (just thinking out loud now)

Edited September 15, 2016 by wapiti

[Pen]

Yes. Sounds like algebra 1. AoPS just a bit each day while also still working on the other skills might be a good fit.

 

Possibly graph paper, colors to help keep track of what he is doing (either pencils with color or coloring columns on the paper) could help.

 

Working to try to find what helps attention best--not facing a window, ear plugs, very short sessions, might all help. I had bumped a thread on Lumosity--are there computer training games that might help train attention?

[Pen]

ETA: or other things to help work on procedure and attention?

 

How does he do with AoPS videos if he has seen them, btw? Do they help focus him because of the way they are done, or does it become too "busy" and itself distracting? 

 

I think Sal Khan's idea of a calm presentation where only the math shows, not the face of a teacher to distract the student, has some merit. But I know many people are wowed by the AoPS videos.

[wapiti]

. 

 

Edited September 15, 2016 by wapiti

[OneStepAtATime]

Something happened last night that made me think of this thread and the backwards hard-is-easy, easy-is-hard.  Ds was supposed to do the exercises in AoPS Intro to Alg for graphing inequalities and vice versa, finding the inequality from the graph.  Should be relatively easy, I thought; a snap compared to the lesson that follows.  Well, he hadn't really done all the lesson problems at school like he had told me, so he was lost.  Plus it was obvious that he had somehow forgotten how to even graph a regular line(!).  (Then there was the issue with pretending there's an equals sign in the inequality in order to graph the line - he was incredulous - pretend??!!  LOL, dd did the same thing on that topic.)  So, I ended up pulling out Foerster, of all things, because I couldn't find the exact exercises in Jacobs that I was looking for without much trouble (practice with point-slope form, etc.).  I sent him to school today with an assignment in Foerster - I just hope he doesn't forget to bring the book home because that's my only copy.

 

What seems a bit backwards, to me, is how I'm using AoPS here - rather than use it as a way to deepen a concept taught in a more straightforward way first, I'm using AoPS to teach the concept first as it's so big-picture and then using exercises from a more straightforward, detailed text to practice the details.  Then we will come back to AoPS of course and he'll have to try the deeper exercises again.  I guess big-picture is my spine and the details are the...branches?

Interesting!  I think DS is doing better with that sort of thing. Or at least he is enjoying math more now that we are doing Big Picture (Forest/Tree) then, as you say branches (details).  DD and I will be starting a similar, more "specifically aligned that way" approach next week or the week after, but she wanted to wait until she was further in Dynamo Math.

[FairProspects]

Something happened last night that made me think of this thread and the backwards hard-is-easy, easy-is-hard.  Ds was supposed to do the exercises in AoPS Intro to Alg for graphing inequalities and vice versa, finding the inequality from the graph.  Should be relatively easy, I thought; a snap compared to the lesson that follows.  Well, he hadn't really done all the lesson problems at school like he had told me, so he was lost.  Plus it was obvious that he had somehow forgotten how to even graph a regular line(!).  (Then there was the issue with pretending there's an equals sign in the inequality in order to graph the line - he was incredulous - pretend??!!  LOL, dd did the same thing on that topic.)  So, I ended up pulling out Foerster, of all things, because I couldn't find the exact exercises in Jacobs that I was looking for without much trouble (practice with point-slope form, etc.).  I sent him to school today with an assignment in Foerster - I just hope he doesn't forget to bring the book home because that's my only copy.

 

What seems a bit backwards, to me, is how I'm using AoPS here - rather than use it as a way to deepen a concept taught in a more straightforward way first, I'm using AoPS to teach the concept first as it's so big-picture and then using exercises from a more straightforward, detailed text to practice the details.  Then we will come back to AoPS of course and he'll have to try the deeper exercises again.  I guess big-picture is my spine and the details are the...branches?

 

I think this is how I will need to use AoPS too. Not quite sure yet how that will work out.

 

I haven't really tried the Alcumus videos with ds. Maybe I should see how he does. We get back into math tutoring and math circles next week so that will be good.

[wapiti]

. 

 

Edited September 15, 2016 by wapiti

[OneStepAtATime]

Anyone want to guess what I found in his backpack?  His classroom copy of AoPS.  He left Foerster there. :glare:  He said "but I thought doing the Jacobs book now" (I do have two copies of Jacobs, but it doesn't even look the same).  Supposedly he did five of the problems...

Hope you get Foerster back.  The used copy of Jacobs I ordered arrived this afternoon.  I opened it and it was in good shape, just like they said....except for the bright black letters across the top, side and bottom of the compressed pages stating "I HATE ALGEBRA" and the clearly written message on the inside stating "DO NOT EVERY BUY THIS BOOK".   :glare:

[wapiti]

. 

 

Edited September 15, 2016 by wapiti

[OneStepAtATime]

Sorry about the graffiti!

 

I did get my book back.  He only got part of the problems done and wasn't sure how to proceed with the rest - this is the problem with our goofy arrangement with school.  His teacher doesn't have time to sit there for 10-15 minutes to give him a lesson, just by himself (I haven't asked her to, even though she would be happy to help as needed... I envision that sort of helping to be a minute or two rather than a whole lesson).  When it comes to difficulty, I don't think he wants to even ask her for help.  I think the biggest problem for us with aops right now is that he hasn't been in the mood to think  :glare: .  This seems to happen periodically.  Then we'll get back to it.

 

So, because he apparently needs more straightforward exercises sometimes, I decided that, for a little bit, we'll do a few lessons in Foerster.  It's funny, even though it's organized differently, we won't lose ground, because as it happens, sequentially the next topic in Foerster (if we switched over entirely and started at the beginning testing thru chapters) is what would come in the next chapter in aops, factoring polynomials.  If we stayed with Foerster, there are some later chapters for which he could skip some lessons because he's done them elsewhere, though there are some things I'd like him to review.  Anyhow, I like that there are a number of exercises in Foerster, yet if I assign odds it seems to be a reasonable number of problems to do (since they're not like aops problems, if you know what I mean).

 

I'm really posting just to mention something we are trying with this today - the worksheet.  Instead of giving him the whole book, I made up a worksheet of the exercises, with an example at the top.  We did the lesson itself last night, so in theory he should know how to do this, but I know he will resist the writing.  The idea is that at least he won't have to copy over the problems - I'm trying to grease the skids here.  I set up the example with one of the sets of parentheses in a colored font, so that it's obvious what happened on the second line without drawing arrows.  I also chose to split up the first parentheses instead of the second (compared to the book examples) because it seems more natural/visual to me - that is, instead of (x+7)(x-2) turning into (x+7)(x) + (x+7)(-2), I did x(x-2) + 7(x-2).  It took a few minutes to type the whole thing up in Word with the equation editor, but I'm happy to do it if it'll help.  I included lines to write on underneath each problem.

Thanks for the post, wapiti!  Actually, I wholeheartedly support your typing it up, although I know that is a lot more work for you.  When DD was still in b&m school, she found a lot of the pages in the textbooks overwhelming.  I ended up retyping a ton of stuff.  I started buying all her text books in 2nd grade and continued that practice all the way through 5th.  I retyped lessons a bunch.  Took forever, but it meant when she came in from school we could sit and focus on what she usually missed in the lessons at school so she would be better prepared for homework.  Only way we made it through to 5th grade without any accommodations or remediation through the school.  Course, would have made more sense to actually get an eval in 2nd and find a better path, but it worked.

 

And I appreciate you reminding me, because that might work well to go back to when we start hitting higher level math again.  Still in remediation on that right now, but DD is really hoping to tackle Pre-Algebra by Fall of this year.  She is working hard and feeling pretty good about things at the moment.  DS will definitely benefit, too, because of his dysgraphia and his vision issue.

[wapiti]

.

Edited September 15, 2016 by wapiti

[OneStepAtATime]

Reporting back that it worked!  Success!  Ds did all the exercises, well at least the 14 on the first page.  He didn't flip to the second page with a few extra problems, but I'm not complaining.  So, perhaps I haven't wasted my day turning Foerster exercises into a workbook.  When we get to the word problems, maybe I'll just send the book in with him.  I suppose if I were really industrious, I could scan them in and snip the image so they can be placed far apart on a page with room to answer in between.  This is just an experiment; wouldn't be the first time we took a break from aops and returned within a week or two.  But if it goes very well, I can imagine continuing and then using aops later for review problems or something.  There *will* be aops, LOL.

Yeah!  Thanks for reporting back!

[OneStepAtATime]

Thought I would update this a bit.  DS got onto the computer today while I was working with DD and blew through several dozen Dynamo math lessons (he hadn't asked, he just did it), then went and got out the worksheets i had printed out to use for the next couple of weeks and did those, then grabbed the Challenge Math book and Beast Academy and plopped them in my lap, explained that he had already completed level 2 of Dynamo Math and wanted to get moving with the other two books.  He plans to start level 3 of DM next week, but wanted to just get DM 2 over with.  I guess we will go back and do the hands-on activities for DM2 later...or not.  He doesn't seem to need them, really.  DD is the one I got the program for, actually.  He just got to go along for the ride (it HAS helped with his math processing speed so it wasn't a total waste).

 

Anyway, we started Beast Academy, DD came over to see what we were doing, hopped on board and blew through the geometry puzzles in a heartbeat.  She loved them.  DS struggles to understand which angle is assigned the obtuse label and which was acute (meaning assigning the right word to the right thing), but understood which angle to use in which situation.  He couldn't trace the puzzles accurately without help (fine motor and vision issues getting in the way), but did fine as long as I was writing for him.  He just traced with his finger where he wanted me to go, then I drew it in for him. They both enjoyed just doing "fun math".  So did I.

[wapiti]

.

Edited September 15, 2016 by wapiti

[OneStepAtATime]

Another update, in case this helps someone:  in my insanity last week, I ordered all sorts of stuff from Amazon, old texts I wanted to look at and whatnot, an extra copy of Foerster for ds to leave at school, etc.  I noticed that there is a Foerster workbook for working with a graphing calculator, but I didn't order it.  Instead, I ordered this 1995 Foerster alg 1 skills workbook.  It arrived today and is perfect for my purposes - a one-page worksheet of problems for each lesson (pretty much the length I was typing up).  So perfect that I'm thinking, what about my other kids?  should I order more? LOL.  Used workbooks are always a risk to order on-line, but in this case I scored - it's clean.

 

eta, there are some exercises for which separate graph paper would be needed and there are some for which extra paper would be needed for doing the work (whereas on what I typed up, I would include several blank lines underneath the equation, for solving).  So maybe not as perfect as I had in mind, but close.

Thanks so much for the update, Wapiti!  Interesting!  I didn't realize that there were workbooks.  I kind of did the same thing with Amazon and old books over Christmas/January, but I didn't look for workbooks.  

 

I have been really enjoying doing the Key to Fractions books for me, btw!  Remembering so much I had forgotten (or honestly never really probably understood with any depth since fractions were always tough for me).  

[OneStepAtATime]

Bumping this in case anyone else had similar issues and wanted to skim through...

[Heathermomster]

How has Dynamo been?  When will your kids be finished?

[OneStepAtATime]

DS really got tired of D.M. and had nearly finished it anyway so he is now doing Math in Focus with Beast Academy.  He also dabbles in some of the sources upthread.  DD is still doing D.M. but she ran into a small snag with subtraction.  We worked through it with manipulatives and I think she is in better shape now.  She will continue D.M. starting in mid-June but also wants to do Hands On Equations.  Actually, they both do.  We will start that in July.  DD is hoping to be ready for Pre-Algebra by November.