Better Late philosophy vs Classical Education

[ElizaG]

I'm glad you stuck around.   Children are so funny with their development.  I remember being concerned because one of my toddlers wasn't talking in phrases yet, and the books all said it was a "red flag" if he didn't start by age 2.    He finally started... a week before his 2nd birthday.   (And now he never, ever stops talking.) :001_smile:

 

If you're looking for a structured curriculum with Great Books, Catholic theology, and classical languages, there are a few options.

 

Kolbe uses the progymnasmata, and has an option to start Latin in 5th grade and Greek in 7th.   In their high school materials, they strongly encourage learning to read the original classical texts -- though they don't require this, because they realize that it's not feasible for everyone. 

 

St. Thomas Aquinas Academy offers a service where they put together resources to create a program for your whole family, so that they're all studying the same things in history and science.

 

If you'd like more assistance with the teaching, there's also Fisher More Academy (formerly Regina Coeli), which uses live online instruction and e-mail.   They don't start Latin until 8th grade, but the overall curriculum looks substantial, and very Catholic.  

 

Hope that's somewhat helpful.  I think any of these would provide a solid education along the lines you've described.   (I might end up enrolling my own children with one of them, when they're a bit older.  :001_smile: )

[justamouse]

If you can just jump in, then it would seem they are not truly classical programs. 

 

 

I think I understand what you are saying. 

 

What I have learned is that no matter how 'far behind' my littles were with any sort of skill someone says they should have mastered, if I have read them good books then they can jump in. 

 

With my children who I pulled out of PS, I never was able to give them the education I wanted them to have because the books they read from k-7 didn't give them the foundation of ideas, storylines, vocabulary, or structure I needed them to understand. 

 

The children that I have homeschooled from the beginning, because I was able to be more selective with what we spent our time on, they would be able to 'jump right into' any classical online/curric I would put them into. 

 

My youngest is by far my slowest reader. At 7.8 she is just now getting to be a fluent reader. She's known her phonograms since she was about 4. It's been scary. BUT, I've not pushed her to frustration, and I've not stopped reading to her, and now that she's putting it all together, she's gaining ground so quickly because she has this backlog of ideas, and structure and story. 

 

My best student yet, my 14 yo son, didn't read well until 9, and now I cannot keep him challenged enough. He is devouring Henle Latin, loves Logic, is studying 3 instruments (and is working on obtaining a 4th), plays in a jazz band, a school band, with friends in a garage band, and can write some excellent papers. I had never stopped reading to him, either. We really had to think hard this year if we should push him through to 9th, or let him stay in 8th, and HIS decision was to stay in 8th because he didn't want to miss out what he would have been learning. 

 

So, though he is reading BOB books, read Beatrix Potter to him, then AA Milne, and Hillare Belloc, and Kenneth Grahame, and let him *know* the stories, read them over and over so that they're his and just keep building that. 

 

I still read to my kids every (school) day, even the 14 yo. We have a great time with it and it's truly something precious to our family.

[NASDAQ]

I don't think there's anything wrong with your son not reading at six. Lots of children aren't reading at six.

 

What concerns me is that you say that he resists more than five minutes instructions, and you back down. And in my experience, they get less academically pliable after about eight, not more. Especially boys.

 

Maybe you have some insight into why reading is uniquely difficult for him/should be delayed. You are his mother and you know better. This is just something that I find concerning in general with the "late not early" philosophy.

[MomintheMountains]

I don't think there's anything wrong with your son not reading at six. Lots of children aren't reading at six.

 

What concerns me is that you say that he resists more than five minutes instructions, and you back down. And in my experience, they get less academically pliable after about eight, not more. Especially boys.

 

Maybe you have some insight into why reading is uniquely difficult for him/should be delayed. You are his mother and you know better. This is just something that I find concerning in general with the "late not early" philosophy.

I explained in my earlier posts. I said not more than 5 minutes of phonics instruction. I believe he hated the beginning reading program I was using- Teach Your Children to Read in 100 Easy Lessons. But as I stated, that has now changed.

 

He is my 4th 6 year old boy. Don't be too concerned about us. I know what I am doing!

[MomintheMountains]

I'm glad you stuck around. Children are so funny with their development. I remember being concerned because one of my toddlers wasn't talking in phrases yet, and the books all said it was a "red flag" if he didn't start by age 2. He finally started... a week before his 2nd birthday. (And now he never, ever stops talking.) :001_smile:

 

If you're looking for a structured curriculum with Great Books, Catholic theology, and classical languages, there are a few options.

 

Kolbe uses the progymnasmata, and has an option to start Latin in 5th grade and Greek in 7th. In their high school materials, they strongly encourage learning to read the original classical texts -- though they don't require this, because they realize that it's not feasible for everyone.

 

St. Thomas Aquinas Academy offers a service where they put together resources to create a program for your whole family, so that they're all studying the same things in history and science.

 

If you'd like more assistance with the teaching, there's also Fisher More Academy (formerly Regina Coeli), which uses live online instruction and e-mail. They don't start Latin until 8th grade, but the overall curriculum looks substantial, and very Catholic.

 

Hope that's somewhat helpful. I think any of these would provide a solid education along the lines you've described. (I might end up enrolling my own children with one of them, when they're a bit older. :001_smile: )

This is great! I am familiar with Kolbe and Fisher Moore (actually looking at that for a hybrid school I am interested in helping to start), but I didn't know about STAA. It is very intriguing.

[La Texican]

My kids and I did not like 100 ez lessons. Some people don't like video games, but we do and we used Reading Eggs.

I guess I assumed a classical education was similar to a liberal arts education rather than a STEM focused or engineering trac:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/157509-liberal-education-vs-classical-education/ and that some people focused classical education on Christianity (because it's based on the mediterranian Greek and Roman area), some focused Classical education on charachter development (because Homer and Aristotle predated Christianity), and some based it heavily on literature, but rounded it out with STEM to be like a liberal arts education. I really thought classical education referred to one of two things: private Christian schools & charachter development, or a literature centered liberal arts education focused on literature, history, and philosophy.

 

ETA: that's why I posted earlier that I thought the main focus of early classical education was to read tons of fairy tales and mythology to young children because that is the foundation of literature and philosophy and our earliest recorded histories.

[*Michelle*]

I just received this in my email and thought it would be interesting to see what you all think: http://christopherperrin.com/articles/what-is-classical-education/

[NASDAQ]

I explained in my earlier posts. I said not more than 5 minutes of phonics instruction. I believe he hated the beginning reading program I was using- Teach Your Children to Read in 100 Easy Lessons. But as I stated, that has now changed.

 

He is my 4th 6 year old boy. Don't be too concerned about us. I know what I am doing!

 

I'm sure you do. I am coming from a place where kids my kids hate all phonics and would happily go on illiterate until half past age ninety ;)

 

People run really hot or cold on 100EZ Lessons.

[swellmomma]

oooh we have not had a talk like this in a long time!

I answered in the dp of this thread that I was quite relaxed with my older 3 in the younger ages and have slowly ramped up over the years towards high school and that it is working.  That said they will never be at the level of many of the high schoolers being taught more rigorously since the beginning, then again all 4 kids have learning issues so the fact they are still getting such a good education even is slightly lower level than other WTM high schoolers is "proof" enough for me that it works.

Now as far as othe titles/options whatever, on the shelf next to my computer I have 2 editions of WTM(2nd and 3rd), LCC, The case for classical christian education by douglas wilson and Teaching the Trivium by Harvey and Laurie Bluedorn. I have also read/referenced designing your own classical curriculum.  I tend to reread WTM several times a year and the others once every 1-2 years to keep my vision in my head of what I want for my kids and how we are getting there.

I like many others do not feel the trivium is tied to specific ages and believe that when they are a bit older kids can work through multiple stages at once.  For example, my dd14 did chapter 1 of prima latina in 5th grade, disliked it immensely and we didn't do anymore, this year however she enrolled in a 1st year latin class which uses Lingva Latina, so they jump right into reading, speaking and translating latin without studying the grammar of it first.  They learn the grammar as they go, much like an english speaking child learns the english language through usage before they learn the rules of it.  She is currently top of her class, there are students in the class who have studied latin in the past with other texts and she is surpassing them in ability and understanding.

The same is true for the other subjects she is studying, things that a year or 2 ago she seemed whoafully behind in, she is near up to "grade level" and being able to jump right in using texts/resources recommended from the various books.  ds15 is not jumping in quite so smoothly but given his learning issues and the principal of his ps kindy class telling me he was unteachable and we would be lucky to ever make him literate the fact he is in online literature course reading and discussing the great books I would say he is slightly more than merely literate :P

I plan to continue with my methods of being relaxed in the early years, focusing on unit studies and immersion into topics rather than just piling on the facts and as they grow build the rigor and turn to more written output etc than previously.  Is it pure classical? nope.  Are they still getting a good education, studing the great books, learning languages and how to communicate both in the written and verbal sense in a superior way than their peers? Absolutely.

[CelticHaiku]

I am new and don't know if this will be helpful, but I would like to offer a specific curriculum suggestion that I think may address three things you mentioned. You are looking for something your children can begin in around 5th grade, you want a more relaxed start in the early grades to not be a hindrance, and you want then to learn Latin (I think you mentioned the Latin bit). I am going to recommend you consider The Latin Road to English Grammar and The Bridge to the Latin Road. My dd is too young for this program so I can't speak as an expert but I have found myself looking closely at this curriculum for my own needs. The Bridge is meant for students who may not have had a strong phonetic reading/spelling background or may not have come from an intense grammar background. It seams to be a way to cover in one year with an older student what younger students may have done over several years (They do have a program for younger kids but I doesn't sound like what you are looking for). After The Bridge you start the Latin Road program. I think you mentioned that you are Catholic, so I will say the the program uses the ecclesiastical pronunciation which may be a great tie in if you can go to Latin Mass. 

 

I hope this is helpful. If it is not, don't worry; My world won't come crashing down. :001_smile:

[MomintheMountains]

It is helpful and you are very on point for what I am looking for! Thank you for the thoughtful response.

[Beth in Mint Hill]

 ....

There are so many different definitions, styles, and flavors of "classical education," and many of the components of the various neo-clasical systems really have nothing to do with "classical education" — ...

 

...my kids study Latin and Classical history/art/literature, and they read Great Books, and they will study a LOT of philosophy in high school, from PreSocratics to Post Modernists, because IMHO that is where logic, rhetoric, critical thinking, and Western Civ all come together. Other people may consider themselves "classical educators" even if they skip Latin and read little Classical literature, because they use FLL and SOTW and do a 4-yr history rotation, even though none of those things are really "classical." IOW, as a label, "classical educator" means too many different things to be really meaningful.

 

Jackie 

 

Yes! I agree so much with what you say here, Jackie!  I've been thinking about this off and on for sooo many years. 

"....classical educator" means too many different things to be really meaningful."  

 

I referred to what we did as a "lively literary" education. 

:)  

[Beth in Mint Hill]

Hello, wondering if I can get some help wrapping my mind around an idea. Is it possible to combine the Moore philosophy of delaying a formal education with classical education? I have dabbled in classical through the years (10 years of homeschooling) and I am considering getting serious about implementing a more rigorous classical education. However, I have all boys and they really resist much formal learning when they are young. My now 16 and 10 year old learned to read young and easily, but I am struggling with my 8 and 6 year old. My 8 year old is just now taking off in reading and my 6 year old will only willingly practice reading for about 5 minutes at a time here and there. I am inclined to not push, but if I wait until 8, 9 or 10 to be more formal with their education and allow them to learn to read later, then I will have missed the whole grammar stage. Can I start classical education at a later age at an accelerated pace or am I missing the point of a classical education? Can I have the boys do things like memorization, history that I read aloud, etc. and consider that grammar stage learning? In other words, can late readers or struggling readers still build a grammar stage foundation? And what about Latin? Help! Input, ideas, suggestions, links, books would all be helpful. I need to see the big picture and I can't quite put it together.

 

I just had to pipe up here. Because way back when we home schooled our 3 sons, the oldest was ready to read at age 4 but the middle son could not until 3rd grade! I pushed and pushed the middle one to read in first grade, but he just couldn't track the words. (It turned out he was dyslexic, but we didn't do any expensive "treatment." We just couldn't afford it.) So I thought it best to wait. I happened upon Moore's book Better Late Than Early and it confirmed all my gut instincts. So when he was able to take off with reading in the 3rd grade I taught him the basics, but it did not take a huge, involved phonics program to do it. In the late elementary grades he quickly got up to grade level with reading and comprehension. He devoured the Lord of the Rings trilogy in just a few days! And in high school he could read anything. By the time he was 18 he was reading things like Doestoevsky and Jane Austen, just because he wanted to. Because of his dyslexia he has always been a much slower reader than his older brother, but he loves to read the Economist magazine and other such stuff.

But for years I felt guilty, and thought that I might be failing him by going so easy on the academics in those earlier years. But, although there were many things I'm sure we could have done much better, his development later did prove to be phenomenal. I really do think that it served him well to be allowed to spend plenty of time in the woods and playing with legos at age 7, 8 and 9. And allow him to develop the reading a little later.

 

These days he has been excelling at the university, where he is taking all sorts of very challenging courses (majoring in Economics). I came over to the boards to see if I could answer some questions about Latin, since that's my thing. But just thought it might be nice to hear a story from this side of the fence :) since all three of our boys are grown and doing well.  

[MomintheMountains]

I just had to pipe up here. Because way back when we home schooled our 3 sons, the oldest was ready to read at age 4 but the middle son could not until 3rd grade! I pushed and pushed the middle one to read in first grade, but he just couldn't track the words. (It turned out he was dyslexic, but we didn't do any expensive "treatment." We just couldn't afford it.) So I thought it best to wait. I happened upon Moore's book Better Late Than Early and it confirmed all my gut instincts. So when he was able to take off with reading in the 3rd grade I taught him the basics, but it did not take a huge, involved phonics program to do it. In the late elementary grades he quickly got up to grade level with reading and comprehension. He devoured the Lord of the Rings trilogy in just a few days! And in high school he could read anything. By the time he was 18 he was reading things like Doestoevsky and Jane Austen, just because he wanted to. Because of his dyslexia he has always been a much slower reader than his older brother, but he loves to read the Economist magazine and other such stuff.

But for years I felt guilty, and thought that I might be failing him by going so easy on the academics in those earlier years. But, although there were many things I'm sure we could have done much better, his development later did prove to be phenomenal. I really do think that it served him well to be allowed to spend plenty of time in the woods and playing with legos at age 7, 8 and 9. And allow him to develop the reading a little later.

 

These days he has been excelling at the university, where he is taking all sorts of very challenging courses (majoring in Economics). I came over to the boards to see if I could answer some questions about Latin, since that's my thing. But just thought it might be nice to hear a story from this side of the fence :) since all three of our boys are grown and doing well.

Thank you for posting! Yes, it is great to hear from your side of the fence. I have 5 boys and it is amazing how different they all are. My first two were early readers and my third is very different. He definitely needs to go at his own pace. I thought I had this homeschooling thing down, but it all seems new with him. This thread was actually started awhile ago and I have had some time to work with him in different ways than I have with my older two. He is making nice progress, but I have relaxed a lot and quit trying to conform him to learning in the way my older two have.

[KSinNS]

Haven't read all the previous posts, but I do a late start approach to classical education. 

 

I look at the trivium-grammar, rhetoric, and logic as the primary subjects-grammar includes mechanics of writing and spelling, rhetoric as mainly persuasive writing, and logic as critical thinking and probably at least some formal logic. With my younger kids (my oldest did to grade 2 in a B+M school) I've worked primarily on mechanics of reading, writing, and math. We do informal grammar of course, but nothing fancy. We all read history aloud and study science through nature. We read stories and mythology aloud. I tend to use history and science largely as tools to work on their primary skills; mainly through discussion and oral narration, though some written, they practice clear communication, mechanics of writing and age appropriate critical thinking skills. To use the SWB analogy, they also are developing "the grammar" of these subjects, though not in the way she describes. And I'm not sure I buy into that analogy. I started "formal" grammar with my oldest at Grade 3, and will start my next at grade 3 or 4, depending on the other things we need to work on. I'll start logic with my oldest next year, in grade 5. Rhetoric in this age group is largely working on writing form and style and clear discussion, but as they get older, we'll work on well structured, persuasive argument. They also do poetry recitations (really, much more fun than it sounds) which is super for public speaking! I'm hoping to introduce a classical language in middle school, though I would argue that math is really the modern latin in the sense that it's the primary modern language of science and business.

 

Anyway, I don't think there's one right way to do this. And I'm sure some would argue I'm not doing classical education at all. But this is the way we operationalize this for our family where a "later" start has been appropriate.