Summarizing Woes in WWE

[petepie2]

I'm looking for advice on writing for my 4th grade DD. She has completed WWE 1-3. Dictation is a breeze for her. Last year there were only a few selections that I had to read more than 3 times in WWE3. Her punctuation is usually correct, as well. So, she doesn't seem to have a problem holding information in her head and then writing it down. The problem she has is formulating the information in the first place! Summarizing can be a nightmare for her. Sure, some weeks were better than others in WWE3, but she needed a good bit of hand-holding to get through the summary narrations. She does better with stories and not so well with historical passages. Description-type passages are so-so. If given the opportunity, she can sit and rewrite a story-type selection with most details and punctuate it correctly. She just can't summarize. If she's reading a book and I ask, "What is that book about?". I get nothing. Nada. Not even bits and pieces. If I were to ask specific questions, I would get answers. If the book were Anne of Green Gables, I would probably get "It's about a girl."

 

This year we decided to try Memoria Press's Classical Composition: Fables and maybe throw in a bit of WWE4. So far we really like Classical Composition. I decided to alternate lessons between CC and WWE4. It takes two weeks to complete one lesson in CC. Well, the first week of WWE4 was okay, as the selections were fables. Yesterday we started week 2 of WWE4 and I thought we were never going to get through it. The passage is a historical one about the Renaissance. The first narration she gave me was miles away from the main point of the passage. We finally worked out something together, but it was very frustrating.

 

I don't want to completely drop WWE4 because I realize that summarizing is a valuable skill to have and she needs to practice it! I'm thinking about just doing the narration parts of WWE4 and throwing out the dictation all together. I just want to help her and I don't know how. Or maybe I should chill out. It's only week 2 of WWE4, after all. Any advice? I know others have children that struggle with this issue.

 

Thanks in advance!

[Miss Tick]

In WWE3 (where we are) there are leading questions to ask if the dc has trouble with the summary, do those help her? Do they not have them in WWE4?

[Aloha2U]

The leading questions in WWE are definitely helpful.  

 

Also, something that made all the difference for my little man was having him read through the sample summaries and then discussing them with him, but only after he'd finished his summary - of course.  By doing this, not only did he eventually gain a better understanding of what was expected of him - summarizing in general, but that there is more than one way to go about it.  This was a huge stepping stone in my opinion.  He would often critique the samples and say what he did or didn't like about them.   :laugh:  Too funny.

[Tonia]

It's a learned skill that still needs practice... my daughter still needs to have me give her a few leading questions. Not "what was it about" but more specific questions - WWE 3 does this but I think WWE 4 just asks more general questions, doesn't it? So, it sounds like she still needs you to coach her along for a bit longer, like the questions in WWE 3. Say for a fable or story you could ask "who was it about, what problem/situation did they face, and how did they solve it?" (one question at a time, of course!) Eventually she'll learn to ask herself these questions and won't need the hand-holding.

 

My daughter is very similar - dictations were a breeze, no problem holding long sentences in her head. But learning to pick out key ideas from a passage is a higher-level skill, one that takes practice. So yeah, I'd continue with WWE 4 since you've got it. Skip dictations and just use the narrations/summaries. But chill and remember that it's a skill she has to master. No point in either of you getting frustrated while you're working on it. She'll get there.

[petepie2]

Yes, the questions in WWE3 were helpful. There was only one leading question for the first narration of week 2 in WWE4, and then it said something like "now give 2-3 sentences with more details." That wasn't so helpful! I'm not sure if the questions are available throughout WWE4. I think I'll just skip the dictation days and press on with the narrations.

[Tonia]

Yes, the questions in WWE3 were helpful. There was only one leading question for the first narration of week 2 in WWE4, and then it said something like "now give 2-3 sentences with more details." That wasn't so helpful! I'm not sure if the questions are available throughout WWE4. I think I'll just skip the dictation days and press on with the narrations.

 

You could just ask leading questions yourself, instead of just the general "what happened in the passage" question in WWE. My daughter (also 4th grader) still needs that bit of prompting too.

[alicai]

We're only in WWE2 so take this fwiw, but I go through each of the provided summary examples with my dd every time. I let her try first and then I stop her as soon as she gets too wordy or whatever and read her the first example. Then we try again. And so forth. I also have her close her eyes while I read the passage and visualize it as closely as possible. Not only does this help with recall and focus, but then when I say, "Tell me in 2 sentences what this story is about and pretend I didn't just watch the movie in your head with you and know nothing about it," it helps her to see what she needs to focus on to paint the picture of the story for me without a lot of detail.

[Guest ISheen19]

Omg, thank you thank you thank you so much for posting about this... We are in WWE2 with my 2nd grader and WWE1 was already a struggle where we'd both end up in tears, from me getting frustrated and her getting upset by my frustration.  Not good.  I like the curriculum and the stucture/format, but honestly, I was starting to lose hope and wonder if I need(ed) to find a new curriculum.  My DD is GREAT at narration--whenever I ask her to tell me about a book she's just read or that I've just read to her, just off-hand (not specifically doing WWE), she can rattle off detail after detail.  But then when we get to WWE I'll read the passage, ask her the questions and 50% of the time she gets absolutely stuck.  Dication, copy work, all that, she is just fine and dandy.  But narration with specific questions?  Ugh.  This post and the replies gives me hope, and just encourages me to give her time and more continued practice.  Just had to say thank you!

[Chrysalis Academy]

Well, also, some of the passages in WWE2 are weird! So don't feel bad.  If she can do narrations of books you or she reads, I wouldn't worry too much about having trouble with some of the passages in WWE.

 

Also, I do think there is a significant difference between being able to narrate - tell back a story with all its details - and being able to summarize, which is what you are starting to learn in WWE2 - to pick out the main point in one or two sentences.  It's easier for a kid with a good memory to tell you back the whole story, but they really have to think and to work hard to pick out the *main* point.  I'd keep working on that skill, gently, using the prompts, and it may take her the whole year to get it down, but it's worth it.  Just take a deep breath and try not to get frustrated - it's not that she should be able to do it now, it's that you are teaching her how to do it so that she'll be able to by the end of 2nd grade.   :grouphug:

[Guest ISheen19]

Also, I do think there is a significant difference between being able to narrate - tell back a story with all its details - and being able to summarize, which is what you are starting to learn in WWE2 - to pick out the main point in one or two sentences.  It's easier for a kid with a good memory to tell you back the whole story, but they really have to think and to work hard to pick out the *main* point.

 

 

Yes, you are so right about that.  And if it weren't for my husband trying to give me perspective, I'd probably throw the book out the window.  ;)  He's always pointing out to me that she struggles with the summarizing because she really has to think about getting those *main* points.  Not to mention trying to give it to me in a complete and coherent sentence!  It's a lot for her to be able to do all at once, and at her age.  Whereas the narrating will just come naturally--like there's no pressure. I'm often having to remind myself to take a :chillpill: .

 

Thanks for the encouragement! :001_smile:

[Guest ISheen19]

Also, I do think there is a significant difference between being able to narrate - tell back a story with all its details - and being able to summarize, which is what you are starting to learn in WWE2 - to pick out the main point in one or two sentences.  It's easier for a kid with a good memory to tell you back the whole story, but they really have to think and to work hard to pick out the *main* point. 

 

Yes, you are so right about that.  And if it weren't for my husband trying to give me perspective, I'd probably throw the book out the window.  ;)  He's always pointing out to me that she struggles with the summarizing because she really has to think about getting those *main* points.  Not to mention trying to give it to me in a complete and coherent sentence!  It's a lot for her to be able to do all at once, and at her age.  Whereas the narrating will just come naturally--like there's no pressure. I'm often having to remind myself to take a :chillpill: .

 

Thanks for the encouragement! :001_smile:

[5LittleMonkeys]

Summaries are hard for some kids...especially when there are details that are interesting or exciting...they tend to latch onto the details and miss the big main idea.  

 

I go at this several different ways.

• Explicitly teach what a main idea is vs. details.   I use a graphic organizer to help my dc see what the difference between main idea and detail is.  I always start with their name as the main idea and then put details about them around their name.  Then I will use the graphic with several of the passages in WWE, their own short story books, and chapters from science or history to help them visualize what main idea vs. details looks like.  This may not be helpful to all kids but mine are all very visual so it helps a lot. I do it for several weeks with a lot of models then taper off and only do it with a few models per week interspersed with me giving the summaries.  After a couple months we can ditch the visuals.
• Model what a good summary sounds like. Take a few weeks to read through the passages and then you give the summary - using the example the book gives if you want for WWE or coming up with your own if your reading from something else.  Explain to your dc how your summary talks about only the main idea - not the little details.
• Use selections that make it easier to pick out the main idea.  If my dc struggle I resort to using very, very simple models that can be summarized by asking, who is this passage about and what does he\she\it want or do?  I slowly build up the difficulty of the passages.
• Have patience.  This is such an important pre-writing skill.  Writing well is dependent on ordering information....do not skip over or rush this vital piece of the foundation.

 

Edited to add - Does it make a difference in her ability to summarize based on if she reads the passage vs. you reading the passage.  My 5th grade dd can summarize much better if she reads something for herself.  Just a thought.:) 

 

 

 

[lmrich]

Let her read with you. Fourth grade is a good time to highlight information or take notes.

[kpnick in nc]

These posts are always encouraging me - to stick with WWE.  We have just begun WWE3; DS does well enough with the summary questions and dictation, but the narrations are pretty tough for us.  We also do narrations for SOTW, but I'm willing to help him more with those. I always read his narrations back to him for reinforcement, and I like the idea of reading the samples.

 

DS took the Woodcock-Johnson test last year, and his best area was passage comprehension. I was surprised at first since we struggle so with narrations, and I have no other experience with which to compare.  Now it makes sense since this approach is rigorous for him and is one-on-one. I do the testing solely for state req's, but it was nice to see something like this on paper to encourage me to stay the course.

 

[petepie2]

Thanks to everyone! I knew there were others out there with the same problem. The key is realizing that summarizing does not equal narration. It's a different skill and can be difficult for many kids to learn. We'll just all press on!

 

Also, I like the idea about highlighting or taking notes. I think we'll try that....

[Stellalarella]

Summaries are hard for some kids...especially when there are details that are interesting or exciting...they tend to latch onto the details and miss the big main idea.  

 

I go at this several different ways.

• Explicitly teach what a main idea is vs. details.   I use a graphic organizer to help my dc see what the difference between main idea and detail is.  I always start with their name as the main idea and then put details about them around their name.  Then I will use the graphic with several of the passages in WWE, their own short story books, and chapters from science or history to help them visualize what main idea vs. details looks like.  This may not be helpful to all kids but mine are all very visual so it helps a lot. I do it for several weeks with a lot of models then taper off and only do it with a few models per week interspersed with me giving the summaries.  After a couple months we can ditch the visuals.
• Model what a good summary sounds like. Take a few weeks to read through the passages and then you give the summary - using the example the book gives if you want for WWE or coming up with your own if your reading from something else.  Explain to your dc how your summary talks about only the main idea - not the little details.
• Use selections that make it easier to pick out the main idea.  If my dc struggle I resort to using very, very simple models that can be summarized by asking, who is this passage about and what does he\she\it want or do?  I slowly build up the difficulty of the passages.
• Have patience.  This is such an important pre-writing skill.  Writing well is dependent on ordering information....do not skip over or rush this vital piece of the foundation.

 

Edited to add - Does it make a difference in her ability to summarize based on if she reads the passage vs. you reading the passage.  My 5th grade dd can summarize much better if she reads something for herself.  Just a thought. :)

 

Is there a writing curriculum that helps a teacher do this?  Apparently I am needing some hand holding in this area.  

 

I think the thing about WWE is that every lesson feels like a failure.  I read the passage and ask questions--the children cannot remember the questions.  We reread.  I ask again.  We reread.  I ask again.  Sometimes I preread the questions before we read the passage...and still, the struggle.  I go over difficult vocab (like being able to visualize a grating on a basement window in the passage from The Littles) and still they struggle.    We do the questions, I guide them to the correct answer.  They just don't seem to be able to nail it.  I even read them the example summaries after they are done to help them see other ways the summary could be written.  And then there are the dictation sentences.  Argh.  Those are sentences for great spellers....but for the two kids I have in WWE2 and WWE3, it's just too much.  

 

I want something that does what WWE sets out to do--only simpler sentences for dictation, passages on easier reading levels, and more uber-specific instruction for me, the teacher.  And I know that I could go out and find easier passages and easier dictation sentences on my chosen subject matter, but the fact is that I am stretched thin schooling 6 children and I just selfishly want something that is open and go.  And if that is not enough, I would like the copywork materials printed with HWoT font and HWot double lines........

 

We are just struggling and I feel concern that the kids are not coming along like they need to. 

[Stellalarella]

 Whereas the narrating will just come naturally--like there's no pressure. I'm often having to remind myself to take a :chillpill: .

 

 

I am wondering about the narrating coming naturally.  I have using now for 4 years using narration, summarizing, etc...and I still see my dd12 struggle in this area.  Ds15 gets it, I think.  I keep thinking, this will be the year, but is it?  

 

Just think of all those grown-ups out there who can't summarize a story..."and then he said, and then she did, and then the ball rolled, and then we went around the corner, and then you not believe, and finally, but wait, she then went out..."  You know what I mean.  :)