thowell Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Dd10 is using CLE. She is in CLE 4 and has done CLE since the beginning. She has always done great with it but this year seems to be having alot of difficulties. She is not remembering the topics. She does not seem to be able to apply topics learned. Example: They have learned to find 1/4 of 60 you divide 60 by 1/4. They showed this by writing 1/4 of 60 and then showing 60 inside the division box with the divisor spot empty. So today she had a word problem for this concept. She knew she has to have 1/4 of 36 but could not for the life of her, figure out how to get 1/4 of 36!!! After I drew the box and placed 36 inside of it then she knew what to do!! I hope this is making sense...lol So, what is going on with her? I know that this is about the time I had to switch dd13 to a mastery math and I am wondering if that may be the same problem here. I do teach the CLE to her. We do the first part together everyday and then she does the I remember alone. So it is not for a lack of teacher instruction. Another example is division. This is simple 2 digit number divided by 1 digit number with remainder. She can not remember the steps to save her life!!! I had hoped to accelerate her this year to get her caught up. She is 5th grade but in the 4th grade math but I dont see that happening. Any advice on which direction would be great!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jess4879 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 It wouldn't hurt to try a different math just for a topic and see if it clicks. Sometimes it's just a fresh way of looking at it that helps. I know that's been true here. Did you take the summer off? It could just be a temporary memory loss, so to speak. ;) I wouldn't even think of accelerating at this point. Put it on the back burner and work where she's at and ignore the grade level marked on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Dd10 is using CLE. She is in CLE 4 and has done CLE since the beginning. She has always done great with it but this year seems to be having alot of difficulties. She is not remembering the topics. She does not seem to be able to apply topics learned. Example: They have learned to find 1/4 of 60 you divide 60 by 1/4. They showed this by writing 1/4 of 60 and then showing 60 inside the division box with the divisor spot empty. So today she had a word problem for this concept. She knew she has to have 1/4 of 36 but could not for the life of her, figure out how to get 1/4 of 36!!! After I drew the box and placed 36 inside of it then she knew what to do!! I hope this is making sense...lol I wonder if the bolded is really the way they explain it, b/c if it is, it is wrong. 1/4 of 60 is the same as dividing 60 by 4, not 1/4. 60 divided by 1/4 actually equals 240 whereas 1/4 of 60 equals 15. I suspect the problem is not with your dd, but how fractions are being explained and that they are not being explained clearly. A simple way to think about it is that when you have a number of items and you want a fraction of them, you are actually seeking a portion of the whole. When you are dividing a number by a fraction, the number you start with is a portion of what you are seeking. Perhaps searching Khan academy for an video explanation would help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thowell Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 Hmmmm. Ok let me make sure I am explaining this right, so they have this problem: 1/4 of 36 is what? wish I had the little division box on here!! lol problem written 4 division box 36 answer is 9. But you are saying this is not correct? That makes me feel great about it!! UGH!!! This is the problem when I am not a mathy mom in the first place.... Going to find a place to hide for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thowell Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 No we only took a few weeks in June off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Hmmmm. Ok let me make sure I am explaining this right, so they have this problem: 1/4 of 36 is what? wish I had the little division box on here!! lol problem written 4 division box 36 answer is 9. But you are saying this is not correct? That makes me feel great about it!! UGH!!! This is the problem when I am not a mathy mom in the first place.... Going to find a place to hide for a while. No, that is correct. But that is NOT the same thing as saying dividing 36 by 1/4. It is the dividing 36 by 4. In your OP, you stated 1/4 of 60 was the same as dividing 60 by 1/4. It isn't. It is dividing 60 by 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 They have learned to find 1/4 of 60 you divide 60 by 1/4. They showed this by writing 1/4 of 60 and then showing 60 inside the division box with the divisor spot empty. So today she had a word problem for this concept. She knew she has to have 1/4 of 36 but could not for the life of her, figure out how to get 1/4 of 36!!! After I drew the box and placed 36 inside of it then she knew what to do!! First, as 8 already pointed out: you mean divide 60 by 4. Which is something entirely different. Second: the problem I see is that your DD is memorizing a procedure (use a division box, write things in a certain spot) without having understood what it means. You need to work on understanding the meaning of fractions conceptually, not drill more "division boxes" (whatever those may be.) 1/4 means on fourth: dividing the entire pizza or pie or bag of candies or marbles into four equal portions. First she needs to be able to translate 1/4 of 36 into this meaning - then it will become clear what she needs to do. This is simple 2 digit number divided by 1 digit number with remainder. She can not remember the steps to save her life!!! Again: you are trying to get her to memorize a procedure, a series of steps - but obviously she has not understood what division means. If she had a conceptual understanding, it would be clear what she needed to do. I think you need to take a big step back and work on concepts, not drill algorithms. Use manipulatives if that helps her. Have her narrate what she is trying to do. She should be using her own words. For example, if the problem is 26 divided by 6: six stuffed animals, a bag of 26 marbles. Divide fairly so that each animal gets the same number, discover that each will get four and two are left over. I assume she knows her multiplication facts? Then she should recognize: oh, 4*6 is 24. And 26-24 is 2, the remainder. She can then discover: I need to find the biggest number that is a factor of 6 and smaller than 26. But she needs to work through this reasoning first before she is handed an algorithm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thowell Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 Ok thank you! I think I just typed it wrong the first time around. I have been adding in working the problems out with marbles and such so maybe we just need more time on the concept. This is what is worrying me now about the spiral approach to CLE. Even though it has worked great for her in the past, I feel like now that the concepts are requiring her to really think a bit more, she is not spending enough time on them to get it. Does that make sense? So my options??? Tweak CLE to stop and stay on a concept longer using hands on I come up with (like the marbles) or move on to a mastery type math. I like the look of BJU but I am afraid to switch her. Dd13 switched alot until last year she finally settled. I swore I would not let that happen with dd10!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrs.m Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I wonder if the bolded is really the way they explain it, b/c if it is, it is wrong. 1/4 of 60 is the same as dividing 60 by 4, not 1/4. 60 divided by 1/4 actually equals 240 whereas 1/4 of 60 equals 15. I suspect the problem is not with your dd, but how fractions are being explained and that they are not being explained clearly. A simple way to think about it is that when you have a number of items and you want a fraction of them, you are actually seeking a portion of the whole. When you are dividing a number by a fraction, the number you start with is a portion of what you are seeking. Perhaps searching Khan academy for an video explanation would help. CLE isn't explaining it wrong or in a confusing manner. It says what you said. ;) Directly from the book: 1/2 of 12 = ____ 12 / 2 = 6 1/3 of 15 = ____ 15 / 3 = 5 OP, That's introduced using this method in LU 2, Lesson 7. Lesson 1 goes over it with pictures. Maybe go over this concept again? I don't see the box you are talking about. What LU are you on in level 4? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thowell Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 LU 403 lesson 2. Let me go back to 402 and pull that lesson out again. Since you obviously use CLE let me ask you, when your kiddo doesn't seem to get a concept, do you just stop for a bit to give them more time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrs.m Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Ok thank you! I think I just typed it wrong the first time around. I have been adding in working the problems out with marbles and such so maybe we just need more time on the concept. This is what is worrying me now about the spiral approach to CLE. Even though it has worked great for her in the past, I feel like now that the concepts are requiring her to really think a bit more, she is not spending enough time on them to get it. Does that make sense? So my options??? Tweak CLE to stop and stay on a concept longer using hands on I come up with (like the marbles) or move on to a mastery type math. I like the look of BJU but I am afraid to switch her. Dd13 switched alot until last year she finally settled. I swore I would not let that happen with dd10!!! When I run into this problem, I either go back to the lessons that cover it and go over it again OR I get the unit from MM and supplement. It's only one concept and doesn't mean you need to trash the entire program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 LU 403 lesson 2. Let me go back to 402 and pull that lesson out again. Since you obviously use CLE let me ask you, when your kiddo doesn't seem to get a concept, do you just stop for a bit to give them more time? I don't think this unique to a program. I think this is where it helps to teach concepts and talk through them until they understand. Perhaps stepping back to simpler problems would help her understand. For example, 1/3 of 9. Does she understand that that 3/3 is the entire whole? How many need to be in each portion for it to be grouped into 3groups? How many are in 2/3 of 9? Or 1/4 of 16. Can she answer 1/4, 2/4, 3/4, 4/4? Personally, I would not simply focus on 1/x fractions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3andme Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 We have used levels 100 - 600 and I frankly think the 400 light units of CLE are some of the most difficult. I've read similar experiences from others. They really pack a lot of new information into each light unit and introduce many important and complex concepts (long division, mixed nos, simplifying fractions, geometry). My ds is currently working in lu 405 and we have had to slow down and really spend more time reviewing each topic. I would not change programs because of this if CLE has been working for you - just slow down. I really do think this is a hump year and you will find the next levels return to a more balanced and gentle pace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thowell Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 Thank you so much! We actually got out the marbles after lunch and worked several problems together. I took 8 advice above and not only made sure she could tell me what 1/4 of a number was but 2/4 3/4 and 4/4. She really got it. I drew circles on the table and a pie on the board to show how many parts each whole was to split into equally. She worked it with her hands and says she really gets it now! So we will see if it is still there Monday...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Glad you got the fraction problem worked out with the excellent comments from others. With specific respect to the "catching up", I would not try to accelerate during the school year with a student who is struggling at all. The only type of acceleration I would consider would be working year-round, possibly at a reduced (3 times a week) schedule during the summer if busy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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