DD is stalled in math. need help, suggestions please

[lwilliams1922]

DD is ADHD/bipolar. Executive functions are a huge issue with her. She is very eaisly distracted and has difficulty with anything that involves multiple steps.

 

She is very talented in other subjects working way above grade level.

 

Then there is math...

 

We started home schooling about 6 months ago. She always had difficulty while she was in school, tears, avoidance, fear, frustration, giving up,... I think she carried a 30 average in math the last year she was in school.

 

I found mathusee last spring and decided to start her with multiplication. We worked through it, rough spots and all.

Now she's half way through Delta division.

 

She just cant seem to get long division. Too many steps for her and estimation is something she's never had a grasp on.

 

I don't know what to do.

 

Should I take a break from math for a few months and just let her focus on her other subjects?

She tests 3-5 years above grade level in the other subjects.

Maybe she will be ready after more time? Math has always lead to tears and frustration so putting it on the back burner may be the easy answer but then that will hold up the science as well.

 

Should I look at putting her back on meds? She's been off for a year.

 

Previously the only way she managed to pass each year was with private tutoring after hours by the teacher or a tutor.

I'm not working now so there is just no way we can afford a private math tutor.

 

Is there anything I'm missing? any thoughts or suggestions?

 

thanks

[EKS]

Have you tried to teach her how to do short division? This really helped my multiple-steps disabled son. If she can do something like 26 divided by 6 (4 with a remainder of 2) then she can do short division.

 

Here is a link:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_division

 

The thing is, once she is able to do short division reliably, she does need to get back to long division. Short division gets messy when the divisor gets larger (though it can be done). To get my very-reluctant-to-do-long-division son to actually do long division, I let him do one of those big hairy problems in MUS Delta (the ones at the end of the book) using short division. He ended up in a muddle with calculations written everywhere. So at that point I showed him how actually doing the steps in long division would save him all that writing and from then on he did it when he needed to.

 

Also, you need to know how to do the steps in long division when you divide polynomials in algebra later on, so it is important to get long division eventually for that too.

 

I hope this helps.

[lwilliams1922]

I Think the videos helped her get a better grasp of the short division. It's when she got to the long division that she hit the block.

 

Lesson 22 I think is where she's stalled.

 

When she attempts (ie 22___|98759)

 

She keeps trying to divide the 32 into 987 or 9875 or 98759.

I can't seem to get her to to just divide into the the the fewest amt of digits possible, in this case 22/98.

 

She's very frustrated

 

so is mom :(

[Iris]

When I worked on long division with my son last year,this is how we would have handed this problem:

 

Me: does 22 go into 9?

Him: no

 

Me: does 22 go into 98?

Him: yes

 

Me: how many times?

Him: 4

 

Me: what is 22 x 4

Him: 88

 

and then continue showing the process using long division.

 

As far as your ? about medication, I'll preface this to say that my son does NOT have a bi-polar dx.

 

After testing ordered by his dr. earlier this year (he's on the autism spectrum), it was evident that he has a deficiency in lithium. She prescribed a lithium cream. Didn't see any improvement, but got many complaints b/c of the odor. He eventually squeezed out all the cream. :glare: Through research, I learned of lithium orotate, in capsule form, I think, and ordered them. I would encourage you to google 'lithium orotate' and read reviews on amazon and elsewhere. I plan to start w/in the next few days.

 

Good luck!

Iris

[Ottakee]

My kids are all on the other end of the spectrum--ADHD/bipolar but lower functioning.

 

On the med question, are you asking about meds for bipolar or ADHD or both? I think this is something to discuss with a pediatric psychiatrist. Meds have made a HUGE difference here but you need to make sure the mood is well controlled before you add in meds for ADHD. Is she on any meds now?

 

If the math is the only thing holding her back have you tried using a calculator? She needs to know fractions well for algebra but calculators can be very helpful for other aspects of math.

[Laurie4b]

I would not stop math, but I would adjust it so that she is successful every day. You can keep the division part short (10 -15 min) and add another block of math at another point in the day that is not division.

 

Here's one idea to consider: Create a "pattern" for her to follow. You do a problem step by step. On one side of the paper is the math. Highlight the step you are doing. On the other side is a written explanation, headed by the words: Divide, multiply, subtract, bring down. I would suggest doing it on graph paper, so the "bring down" part is very clear. Put your pattern in a plastic sheet protector.

 

Then, with the pattern to assist her, teach it step-by-step.

 

1) You work through some problems with her. Tell her what to do each step. Let her do it with you sitting there and the pattern there. (You refer to the pattern). When she gets very comfortable with that and is getting 90% of the problems correct and she's done that 3 days in a row, move on.

 

2) You sit there while she uses the pattern to work out a problem. She can ask you as many questions as she wants for "free." No strings attached. When she gets very comfortable with that and is getting 90% of the problems correct and she's done that 3 days in a row, move on. Moving on might be that you decrease the number of questions she can ask OR that when she asks a question, you ask one back to help her.

 

3) You are not sitting there. DD works the problem with the pattern. She comes and gets you if she needs help. When she gets very comfortable with that and is getting 90% of the problems correct and not seeking your help, and she's done that 3 days in a row, move on.

 

4) Eliminate ONE step from the pattern. Ask her which one. You might now teach her the mneumonic: Daddy, Mommy, Sister, Brother. (Starts with the same letters as divide, multiply, substract, bring down. Use your judgment as to whether this will help or confuse.)

 

5) Eliminate another step, etc. until she is doing it without the pattern.

 

The key to this is that she should be successful EVERY day. Long division is hard to get. But she'll get it. Just don't stop all other math while she does.

[at the beach]

DD is ADHD/bipolar. Executive functions are a huge issue with her. She is very eaisly distracted and has difficulty with anything that involves multiple steps.

 

She is very talented in other subjects working way above grade level.

 

Then there is math...

 

We started home schooling about 6 months ago. She always had difficulty while she was in school, tears, avoidance, fear, frustration, giving up,... I think she carried a 30 average in math the last year she was in school.

 

I found mathusee last spring and decided to start her with multiplication. We worked through it, rough spots and all.

Now she's half way through Delta division.

 

She just cant seem to get long division. Too many steps for her and estimation is something she's never had a grasp on.

 

I don't know what to do.

 

Should I take a break from math for a few months and just let her focus on her other subjects?

She tests 3-5 years above grade level in the other subjects.

Maybe she will be ready after more time? Math has always lead to tears and frustration so putting it on the back burner may be the easy answer but then that will hold up the science as well.

 

Should I look at putting her back on meds? She's been off for a year.

 

Previously the only way she managed to pass each year was with private tutoring after hours by the teacher or a tutor.

I'm not working now so there is just no way we can afford a private math tutor.

 

Is there anything I'm missing? any thoughts or suggestions?

 

thanks

 

Oh goodness, I am so sorry you are working so hard at this and she is struggling. My daughter with math issues is younger than yours, but it is familiar with regard to seriously lagging in math. I am going to suggest a book, which even though parts may be too young for your daughter, I think might actually be a good fit in other ways. It's Teach Your Child Math by Arthur Benjamin. You can find it on bookfinder. It's out of print, but it is available! This is an AMAZING book, and an amazing way to help kids GET certain concepts, one being division. I personally would not consider putting her on meds again if she has been off for over a year just to help her move along in math. As well, I'm taking into account that she's so far ahead in other things. Also, it sounds like with Math U See, you actually did come a long way until now. So, I think she will get it. She is 12, but in the grand scheme of things, that is still young, and she may just not be where other 12 year olds are with math. Really, she may just need time with it. And again, I really think this book is THAT wonderful, so if you are inclined, please take a look at it. It's not pricey, either.

 

Best,

Anita

[Mandamom]

I Think the videos helped her get a better grasp of the short division. It's when she got to the long division that she hit the block.

 

Lesson 22 I think is where she's stalled.

 

When she attempts (ie 22___|98759)

 

She keeps trying to divide the 32 into 987 or 9875 or 98759.

I can't seem to get her to to just divide into the the the fewest amt of digits possible, in this case 22/98.>>>>>

 

 

My suggestion would be to move back half a step. Have her practice problems such as 98 divided by 32 (98/32) for a while. Then for several days have her practice 987/32 type problems and make sure that she is putting all of the numbers in the right place. Once she has mastered that you can keep making the numbers bigger and hopefully she'll retain the process.

 

You can also have her review other skills that she might need some work (multiplication, fractions or whatever).

 

I would also make sure that once she really understands long division, have her do 2 problems every day for a month or two (and then periodically after that) to make sure she retains the process.

 

So, my suggestion isn't to drop math completely but make this a review period and make sure there aren't any other skills that she needs to brush up on.

 

You can give her the MUS placement test (on the website) to see if she needs more practice in a skill you have already covered.

 

I hope things get easier.

[EKS]

Even though Mr. Demme would probably not agree with me, I would think that you could easily start MUS Epsilon while you were still doing long division. As long as she understands the concept of division, I think you're ok. That way she could still be making progress while working on the long divison.

[luna]

I, too have a dd, 12, with poor executive function skills. She is at the same point in Delta and we stalled at the beginning of the summer. I planned to do math all summer, to keep things fresh, but she REALLY needed a rest. We are starting back up next week and I am dreading it! She did make a chart to remind her of the steps. Without that, she literally forgets what she is to do. Her neurologist said children with her learning issues often seem to understand something one day and completely forget it the next. She is not quite as advanced in other areas as your daughter, but does do above grade level in other areas. We will continue with MUS because she doesn't mind it as much as Saxon (that moved much to quickly for her.) I wouldn't move ahead to the next book because the first four functions of math should be solid before moving on to something else. I have gotten her some other math books for "fun," though she wouldn't say that! I am looking forward to others suggestions, so thanks for starting the thread.

Katherine

[Greta Lea]

I would not stop math, but I would adjust it so that she is successful every day. You can keep the division part short (10 -15 min) and add another block of math at another point in the day that is not division.

 

We ended up switching from MUS to Teaching Textbooks. I think one of the reasons TT is working so well for him now is that when we hit something that is troublesome to him (like fractions right now), that's NOT what the whole workbook page is focusing on. We do a little with the troublesome concept and then the rest of the work is stuff he is not struggling with.

 

On MOnday of this week, he was REALLY struggling with reducing fractions. He told me that he didn't think he'd EVER get this and for sure would NEVER be able to do it without me there by his side walking him through it. Then I asked him if he remember just a few short months ago when he said the same thing about long division. He said, "Oh, yeah, I forgot about that and I CAN do long division just fine now."

 

Believe me, I SO know how you are feeling about this!!!

 

Here's one idea to consider: Create a "pattern" for her to follow. You do a problem step by step. On one side of the paper is the math. Highlight the step you are doing. On the other side is a written explanation, headed by the words: Divide, multiply, subtract, bring down. I would suggest doing it on graph paper, so the "bring down" part is very clear. Put your pattern in a plastic sheet protector.

 

Then, with the pattern to assist her, teach it step-by-step.

 

This is pretty much what I did with my son that really helped him. I tried the graph paper, but he couldn't focus with all the lines all over the page (he has Asperger syndrome and sometimes visual things like that bother him). I highly suggest you try this and do try the graph paper. I think that would be helpful to most other kids.

 

1) You work through some problems with her. Tell her what to do each step. Let her do it with you sitting there and the pattern there. (You refer to the pattern). When she gets very comfortable with that and is getting 90% of the problems correct and she's done that 3 days in a row, move on.

 

I did this also, BUT I also at first did the writing for my son while he told me EVERY little move to make. He couldn't just tell me to "bring down the 2". He had to also point to exactly where I was to write the 2. Once he could do this with about 90% accuracy, then we moved to him doing it me sitting there.

 

The key to this is that she should be successful EVERY day. Long division is hard to get. But she'll get it. Just don't stop all other math while she does.

 

I agree! Don't drop the other math. Also, she WILL get it. I remember feeling EXACTLY like you do back in January. It was horrible, but now my son has that memory of struggling with something and then conquering it! That long division became a blessing this week, when it helped him remember that he WILL conquer these other problem math areas as they come along.

 

Oh, I just have to tell you that your dd sounds so much like my son. He doesn't struggle with ANY other subject at all. In fact, he has always read way above grade level and excels in all other subjects. I always say that math keeps him honest in that it's the way he's gonna learn that hard work DOES pay off!LOL

 

Greta:)

[lwilliams1922]

When I worked on long division with my son last year,this is how we would have handed this problem:

 

Me: does 22 go into 9?

Him: no

 

Me: does 22 go into 98?

Him: yes

 

Me: how many times?

Him: 4

 

Me: what is 22 x 4

Him: 88

 

and then continue showing the process using long division.

 

As far as your ? about medication, I'll preface this to say that my son does NOT have a bi-polar dx.

 

After testing ordered by his dr. earlier this year (he's on the autism spectrum), it was evident that he has a deficiency in lithium. She prescribed a lithium cream. Didn't see any improvement, but got many complaints b/c of the odor. He eventually squeezed out all the cream. :glare: Through research, I learned of lithium orotate, in capsule form, I think, and ordered them. I would encourage you to google 'lithium orotate' and read reviews on amazon and elsewhere. I plan to start w/in the next few days.

 

Good luck!

Iris

 

 

I went back to it yesterday to remind her to check and it helped a great deal. But I found she got it but ONLY while i was sitting 6 inches from her. every time I moved she stalled again.

 

What was the test called to check for lithium?

 

I actaully had/have her with a really good homeopath from NYC.

She started last August and we saw improvement instantly.

He said he would let us know when she was done with treatment (it's not necessary to take it for ever).

 

Well around Dec or so she was doing so well and I was so busy (with life).I forgot to make her monthly phone consult. She did fine for a month then all the improvement went away. Now It's been a hard time to get back on this guys schedule. :(

 

I'd love to hear how the lithium orotate goes for you.

 

thanks!

[lwilliams1922]

My kids are all on the other end of the spectrum--ADHD/bipolar but lower functioning.

 

On the med question, are you asking about meds for bipolar or ADHD or both? I think this is something to discuss with a pediatric psychiatrist. Meds have made a HUGE difference here but you need to make sure the mood is well controlled before you add in meds for ADHD. Is she on any meds now?

 

If the math is the only thing holding her back have you tried using a calculator? She needs to know fractions well for algebra but calculators can be very helpful for other aspects of math.

 

 

I found out when she was around 9 that the mood had to be the primary treatment. I feel like I need more info before going to a new psychiatist (we're military and recenly made a move). The military doctors are quick to perscribe something or many times ask me what I want to try.

 

Math is her only hold up but sciene will follow as she gets into more advance science.

 

I've been told by a few teachers over the years that she is just LOST in fractions. I HOPE mathusee can help the light come on.

 

thanks

[lwilliams1922]

Her neurologist said children with her learning issues often seem to understand something one day and completely forget it the next.

 

 

Yes this is DD EXACTLY

 

She not only forgets the next day, she forgets if I get up from the table.

 

I have made her lists for all of her daily/life/academic tasks at one point or another. She ALWAYS looses the list. Sigh :(

[luna]

I wish I could tell you things have gotten better...I suppose they have, even if it is just my outlook. I have to admit I spent a couple of years feeling like she COULD do it, if only she would concentrate.(poor her, bad me) My goals have changed a bit, realizing advanced math will probably not be in her future. That's not to say I am writing it off, I simply want to be realistic and be sure she knows her strengths. As far as making a list of daily routine, I had to laugh at your comment. DD has a laminated list right out her bedroom door, next to the bathroom. I hung a Vis-a-vis marker for her to check of things she did. It is beautifully decorated by her, with cute little comments, but she NEVER remembers to check it. The DR. also said ROUTINE, ROUTINE, ROUTINE is what will help with daily things. I have to admit I'm not great about making every day the same, especially during the summer. She is getting better at that, now that her appearance matters more to her! I spend A LOT of time worrying about her, wondering how she will ever make it into and through college. I do think she will be helped by being generally bright, hopefully able to learn how to compensate for her challenges (perhaps a calculator is in her future?) Anyway, best of luck. If your daughter would like a pen pal in NH, perhaps they can connect!

Katherine

[lwilliams1922]

She is getting better at that, now that her appearance matters more to her! I spend A LOT of time worrying about her, wondering how she will ever make it into and through college. I do think she will be helped by being generally bright, hopefully able to learn how to compensate for her challenges (perhaps a calculator is in her future?)

 

 

I still have to chase her to remind her to shower. :(

 

What math are using?

[luna]

We are using MUS. She is quite behind, still in Delta. I have stopped worrying about it, at least for now. She was getting so upset doing anything math related, I have eased up a bit. We just started doing Quarter Mile again to get back into things before we start up in September. We were going to do work all summer, but that is really hard with all the family we have visiting. I had hoped to have her into Epsilon by the fall, but that isn't going to happen. Her younger sister is going to start Saxon 5/4 soon and she is only beginning 3rd grade. Part of the reason I switched to MUS was so they wouldn't be overlapping. That would be painful for her. I sent you an email with our address if your daughter wants to write. That could be fun for them. Take care.

Katherine