helena Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 I read somewhere that there was an updated version which made it more secular, did they also do away with these two subjects? Thanks for any help. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILiveInFlipFlops Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 :huh: I had no idea this was an issue! I have a copy downstairs that I plan to use for 7th grade. If no one has answered by the time I can dig it out, I'll look through it and see what I can find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted August 3, 2013 Author Share Posted August 3, 2013 :huh: I had no idea this was an issue! I have a copy downstairs that I plan to use for 7th grade. If no one has answered by the time I can dig it out, I'll look through it and see what I can find. Thanks, I would really appreciate that! I want to buy this and stop looking. :) It looks perfect for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 No. The new edition is wonderful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted August 3, 2013 Author Share Posted August 3, 2013 AAAAHHHHH.... That's my sigh of relief! :tongue_smilie: I've now made all my plans for this fall. YAY! Thanks :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILiveInFlipFlops Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 No. The new edition is wonderful. I haven't had a chance to look yet--how new is new? Is there a copyright date I should look for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommymilkies Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 Mine is 2010, which I bought less than a year ago *new* and does have that in it. So beware that some places might still have old stock. It's definitely, definitely in mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoVanGogh Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 2010 edition Page 37 "You can't accept her argument against abortion - she is Catholic and the Catholic Church opposes abortion." "You can't accept his argument favoring legalized abortion - he is a member of the A C L U which supports..." I don't know about the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 Arrgh. Yes my 2010 version has the same text on page 37. We did this book 2 years ago, and clearly I had forgotten. This particular page is easy to skip. Apparently, the previous version to this "new and expanded" version had stuff on Monica Lewinsky and some other outdated and politically incendiary topics. Those have been removed. We are definitely secular homeschoolers and we had no trouble using the book. It is excellent. Ruth in NZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted August 3, 2013 Author Share Posted August 3, 2013 Mine is 2010, which I bought less than a year ago *new* and does have that in it. So beware that some places might still have old stock. It's definitely, definitely in mine. Do you know if there's stuff in there about prostitution or any other similar topics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommymilkies Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 My 2010 still has rather touchy topics of the sort, and more than a little conservative bias. There was a recent thread on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommymilkies Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 Do you know if there's stuff in there about prostitution or any other similar topics? In mine, yes. I will have to pull it out later for page numbers. I think I might have posted them in the other thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted August 3, 2013 Author Share Posted August 3, 2013 Thanks ladies! I could deal with the abortion part by skipping it or seeing that it's not coming off in a way that bothers me. I mean, I have two daughters and it's an important subject (though it's something I'm sure would upset them to talk about)... I just don't want to buy it if that's the tip of the iceberg iykwim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted August 3, 2013 Author Share Posted August 3, 2013 In mine, yes. I will have to pull it out later for page numbers. I think I might have posted them in the other thread. Do you have a link to the other thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 This is the best that I can do with my searching. Here is a review of the previous version. The topics listed in post 4 have been removed from the 2010 version: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/99158-lfc-art-of-argument-whos-used-it/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILiveInFlipFlops Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 This is the best that I can do with my searching. Here is a review of the previous version. The topics listed in post 4 have been removed from the 2010 version: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/99158-lfc-art-of-argument-whos-used-it/ Oh, well, for pete's sake! I'm going to dig the thing out now and see what I see. I bought mine used, so I fear it might be one of the older editions. How did I miss all of that in my research?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted August 3, 2013 Author Share Posted August 3, 2013 I just ordered the TM on Amazon. At least I'll know for sure what I think of it. Sigh... :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILiveInFlipFlops Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 I just ordered the TM on Amazon. At least I'll know for sure what I think of it. Sigh... :/ I hate to say it, but I don't think you're going to get a good sense from the TM. I think you need to look carefully through the student guide. The TM is basically just an very slim answer key for the written exercises in the student guide. The SG is much meatier and contains most of the instruction, discussion, arguments, and examples of the fallacies. For example, the exercise that references Catholics and abortion on page 37 of the SB isn't referenced in the TM. The discussion of the origin of Roe v. Wade on page 67 isn't referenced in the TM either. I seem to have an older version, but both of those references are still in the newer version of the SG available currently on Amazon (copyright 2010). I did see that one or two references in my book that presume Christianity ("we Christians") appear to be gone from the one currently on Amazon (can't guarantee though). The Willie Horton/Dukakis reference is still in the current version, as is a paragraph about a young Dr. Larson giving money to the March of Dimes before discovering that the MoD advocates abortion as a solution to birth defects (an example of emotional response driving action before one can use reason to determine action). A reference to prostitution came up in the Amazon search, but I couldn't see the larger context of that particular one due to the search limitations. The reference to impeaching Clinton is still there, but Monica Lewinsky doesn't come up in the search. To be fair, the book also references Bush's credibility after no WMDs were found in Iraq. I think I'd still be comfortable using the newer version of the book for 7th grade. I'm annoyed that I didn't look closer at this before I bought it, but I still think the benefits of the format and the rest of the instruction outweigh the drawbacks. I'll have to see how I feel when we get closer. I'm glad I saw this thread so I can be prepared! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted August 3, 2013 Author Share Posted August 3, 2013 I hate to say it, but I don't think you're going to get a good sense from the TM. I think you need to look carefully through the student guide. The TM is basically just an very slim answer key for the written exercises in the student guide. The SG is much meatier and contains most of the instruction, discussion, arguments, and examples of the fallacies. For example, the exercise that references Catholics and abortion on page 37 of the SB isn't referenced in the TM. The discussion of the origin of Roe v. Wade on page 67 isn't referenced in the TM either. I seem to have an older version, but both of those references are still in the newer version of the SG available currently on Amazon (copyright 2010). I did see that one or two references in my book that presume Christianity ("we Christians") appear to be gone from the one currently on Amazon (can't guarantee though). The Willie Horton/Dukakis reference is still in the current version, as is a paragraph about a young Dr. Larson giving money to the March of Dimes before discovering that the MoD advocates abortion as a solution to birth defects (an example of emotional response driving action before one can use reason to determine action). A reference to prostitution came up in the Amazon search, but I couldn't see the larger context of that particular one due to the search limitations. The reference to impeaching Clinton is still there, but Monica Lewinsky doesn't come up in the search. To be fair, the book also references Bush's credibility after no WMDs were found in Iraq. I think I'd still be comfortable using the newer version of the book for 7th grade. I'm annoyed that I didn't look closer at this before I bought it, but I still think the benefits of the format and the rest of the instruction outweigh the drawbacks. I'll have to see how I feel when we get closer. I'm glad I saw this thread so I can be prepared! Thank you for letting me know about the TM!!! I just cancelled it and ordered the student book. I'll return it if it's too much for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILiveInFlipFlops Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 Thank you for letting me know about the TM!!! I just cancelled it and ordered the student book. I'll return it if it's too much for us. Glad I could help out :D Thank you for posting your question! I would have been awfully surprised a year from now when I started to plan our logic study for my eldest :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoVanGogh Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 I hate to say it, but I don't think you're going to get a good sense from the TM. I think you need to look carefully through the student guide. The TM is basically just an very slim answer key for the written exercises in the student guide. The SG is much meatier and contains most of the instruction, discussion, arguments, and examples of the fallacies. For example, the exercise that references Catholics and abortion on page 37 of the SB isn't referenced in the TM. The discussion of the origin of Roe v. Wade on page 67 isn't referenced in the TM either. I seem to have an older version, but both of those references are still in the newer version of the SG available currently on Amazon (copyright 2010). Your information is not accurate regarding the 2010 edition. The TM is identical to the student book - same size, same page layout, etc., except it has the answers typed in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommymilkies Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 Your information is not accurate regarding the 2010 edition. The TM is identical to the student book - same size, same page layout, etc., except it has the answers typed in. Yup. I ended up selling my student copy and just using the TM as a read aloud together so I could edit some things and because it was redundant. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/477827-secular-logic-similar-to-aoa/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happypamama Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 The Kindle version still has those references. IDK what year its copyright is, but it's whatever Kindle version was available just a couple of months ago. :( I was bummed because otherwise, I really liked it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILiveInFlipFlops Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 Your information is not accurate regarding the 2010 edition. The TM is identical to the student book - same size, same page layout, etc., except it has the answers typed in. Oh, that's good information! There was no See Inside feature on Amazon for the TM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted August 3, 2013 Author Share Posted August 3, 2013 Okay I cancelled the student book and reordered the TM. :tongue_smilie: Hopefully if I read it aloud I can edit those parts ahead of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted August 6, 2013 Author Share Posted August 6, 2013 I received the TM in the mail today. I'm going through and highlighting the pages that mention prostitution and abortion (and who knows what else.) I'll have to decide what is okay, what I want to write a different example of, and what I want to skip. So far they're small bits. Nothing crazy. Abortion page 37 Prostitution page 87 Thanks for everyones help in figuring it out. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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