Secular logic similar to AoA?

[Mom in High Heels]

I need to find a logic program for next year that isn't just brain puzzles. I'd like something like AoA, but a secular program. Any recommendations?

[watertribe]

Why do you think AoA isn't secular? We just finished it this year and we keep things secular here. I can't remember anything overtly non-secular (but maybe my memory is lapsing).

[Paula in PA]

We just finished AoA earlier this month and there really isn't anything overtly non-secular. There were a couple of examples that made my dd and I cringe a little due to some slight bias, but they did lead to some great discussions. :D The basic information on the fallacies was quite good and we learned a lot!

[redsquirrel]

We used Critical Thinking Book 1 by Anita Harnadek this past year and will use book 2 in the coming school year. I have both the student book and the teacher's guide. We do it 100% orally. It is made the a public school setting and is totally secular. It took a little bit to get into it, but my son really enjoyed it once we got into a groove.

[TarynB]

According to this thread, Art of Argument was secularized in 2010, so the 2010 edition should be OK for you. No personal experience, though. Would love to hear if you have knowledge to the contrary, because we're pretty conservative (so a conservative bias might still work for us, depending on the topic) but secular, and I've been wondering about A of A too.

[Walking-Iris]

http://classicalacademicpress.com/

 

When I was researching Art of Argument, I looked into the company's website. I was a tad worried that any book published by a company that has quite a bit of background in apologetics would have that bias leak into their products. I wasn't interested in a logic program that was basically a thinly veiled attempt at teaching kids how to argue a religious case. I've been a bit turned off with the Classical Education plus Christianity connections several companies and author/speakers have been making.

 

I haven't had the book in my hand however, and I'm not opposed to using products from a Christian company (Peace Hill Press for example). But it did make me wonder.

 

I've been curious about more secular options myself.

 

ETA: does anyone have examples of the non-secular material that was apparently removed?

[mommymilkies]

I am using AoA with my 12 yo. I agree, I would not really classify it as secular. On the surface it is, but a lot of the examples are biased towards the Christian Right politically and religiously. I cringe a lot or have to rant when we go through it. Too bad, it's good otherwise, but I'm a little annoyed with it right now. I have the newer editions of the teacher book and sold my student book (I find both unnecessary).

 

Walking Iris, you can borrow mine sometime to look through. It's not blatant at first glance, but when you use it, it really creeps in and gets annoying. A lot of abortion examples, too, which I find unnecessary and maybe even inappropriate for the age range. There may have even been a prostitution example. I'll have to look back (that one might have been a different book, but the abortion examples were AoA for sure).

[Walking-Iris]

I am using AoA with my 12 yo. I agree, I would not really classify it as secular. On the surface it is, but a lot of the examples are biased towards the Christian Right politically and religiously. I cringe a lot or have to rant when we go through it. Too bad, it's good otherwise, but I'm a little annoyed with it right now.

 

 

Hi stranger!!! ;) I didn't know you were using this. I've been looking into logic for the future and thought this would be a good fit, but then I hesitated. I think I'm just going to read Harry Stottlemeier and do some philosophy/ethics and comp religion with my oldest next year.

 

I would love some secular logic recommendations as well.

[mommymilkies]

I do like Stottlemeier. I have Discovery. The Philosophy for Kids wiki is pretty good, too. There is a cool printable on the fallacies. I can post link later, if you want. I'll have to find it. Overall, I think AoA can be used secularly, but you would need to read ahead and read it aloud. Prepare some of your own examples, etc. basically use it as a guideline, not a prepared curriculum.

[Mom in High Heels]

I do like Stottlemeier. I have Discovery. The Philosophy for Kids wiki is pretty good, too. There is a cool printable on the fallacies. I can post link later, if you want. I'll have to find it. Overall, I think AoA can be used secularly, but you would need to read ahead and read it aloud. Prepare some of your own examples, etc. basically use it as a guideline, not a prepared curriculum.

 

 

PLEASE post links! I'd love to see.

[SunnyDays]

I am using AoA with my 12 yo. I agree, I would not really classify it as secular. On the surface it is, but a lot of the examples are biased towards the Christian Right politically and religiously. I cringe a lot or have to rant when we go through it. Too bad, it's good otherwise, but I'm a little annoyed with it right now. I have the newer editions of the teacher book and sold my student book (I find both unnecessary).

 

Walking Iris, you can borrow mine sometime to look through. It's not blatant at first glance, but when you use it, it really creeps in and gets annoying. A lot of abortion examples, too, which I find unnecessary and maybe even inappropriate for the age range. There may have even been a prostitution example. I'll have to look back (that one might have been a different book, but the abortion examples were AoA for sure).

 

Yikes... We do use some Christian material, but I don't think I'd want to use this. I think there are more age appropriate topics that would make a point equally well if not better. Glad to read the review. I'll be interested in seeing your links too! :)

[mommymilkies]

Here are a couple links.

 

http://www.teachingchildrenphilosophy.org/wiki/Main_Page

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/poster

 

I think I have more stashed away somewhere, too.

[Sarah CB]

I am using AoA with my 12 yo. I agree, I would not really classify it as secular. On the surface it is, but a lot of the examples are biased towards the Christian Right politically and religiously. I cringe a lot or have to rant when we go through it. Too bad, it's good otherwise, but I'm a little annoyed with it right now. I have the newer editions of the teacher book and sold my student book (I find both unnecessary).

 

Walking Iris, you can borrow mine sometime to look through. It's not blatant at first glance, but when you use it, it really creeps in and gets annoying. A lot of abortion examples, too, which I find unnecessary and maybe even inappropriate for the age range. There may have even been a prostitution example. I'll have to look back (that one might have been a different book, but the abortion examples were AoA for sure).

 

 

We're only two chapters in, but there's definitely a prostitution example. IMO it's pretty low-key. It's using the Chronological Snobbery Fallacy - they say something like, prostitution should be a an accepted profession because it's been around longer than nearly every other profession. They don't get into prostitution, but you'd have to know what prostitution was in order to understand the fallacy.

[mommymilkies]

We're only two chapters in, but there's definitely a prostitution example. IMO it's pretty low-key. It's using the Chronological Snobbery Fallacy - they say something like, prostitution should be a an accepted profession because it's been around longer than nearly every other profession. They don't get into prostitution, but you'd have to know what prostitution was in order to understand the fallacy.

 

 

Thanks! I thought it was, but we've been reading several philosophy books. I still didn't think it was necessary, though. And of course my insatiably curious child made me describe prostitution and why it's controversial to my 11-12 year old. Kwim? Especially since I didn't read ahead and it just got thrust upon me unexpectedly. Lol

[HRAAB]

I am using AoA with my 12 yo. I agree, I would not really classify it as secular. On the surface it is, but a lot of the examples are biased towards the Christian Right politically and religiously. I cringe a lot or have to rant when we go through it. Too bad, it's good otherwise, but I'm a little annoyed with it right now. I have the newer editions of the teacher book and sold my student book (I find both unnecessary).

 

Walking Iris, you can borrow mine sometime to look through. It's not blatant at first glance, but when you use it, it really creeps in and gets annoying. A lot of abortion examples, too, which I find unnecessary and maybe even inappropriate for the age range. There may have even been a prostitution example. I'll have to look back (that one might have been a different book, but the abortion examples were AoA for sure).

 

 

Is this the newest edition? I thought they had left out some of those references with the new revision. If they haven't, I am disappointed.

[Mom-ninja.]

Oh well, guess I'll be getting something else for logic.

[mommymilkies]

Unless it's come out in the past 8 months, then I have the newest one I know about!

[redsquirrel]

Here is a link to what we used. Totally secular

 

http://www.criticalt...012/index_c.jsp

 

And I am pretty sure that it is suggested in TWTM as a secular resource for logic. I think she suggests moving through both books in one year. We did the first book over the course of this year and it felt fine. I guess we could have done both if we did logic every day. I did it two or three times every week. If I used Critical Thinking in US history as a history assignment then we might take a day off of using CT. So, it took us the whole year.

 

My son really liked it. He actually referred to what we discussed and pointed out types of arguments he saw being used in the media. He was very proud of himself, lol.

[Walking-Iris]

Here is a link to what we used. Totally secular

 

http://www.criticalt...012/index_c.jsp

 

And I am pretty sure that it is suggested in TWTM as a secular resource for logic. I think she suggests moving through both books in one year. We did the first book over the course of this year and it felt fine. I guess we could have done both if we did logic every day. I did it two or three times every week. If I used Critical Thinking in US history as a history assignment then we might take a day off of using CT. So, it took us the whole year.

 

My son really liked it. He actually referred to what we discussed and pointed out types of arguments he saw being used in the media. He was very proud of himself, lol.

 

 

This is actually what I've looked at using. Also I thought about getting the What Would You Do moral dilemmas book to use this year as well. Does any one have experience with that?

 

There's also this

 

http://depts.washington.edu/nwcenter/lessonsplansdiscussquestions.html

 

And this for basic info

 

http://www.unco.edu/philosophy/arg.html

[SilverMoon]

Weston's slim little A Rulebook for Arguments was mentioned in one version of TWTM. It doesn't have as much meat as AoA, but it would be a great starting place. :001_smile:

 

The abortion examples do sound like the older edition of AoA. Some places like RR sell the older editions until their stock is gone. I don't remember prostitution being in ours either, but it wouldn't have blipped on my radar with the intended age range. (My kids were aware of prostitution and brothels well before that age; we lived in a state where it was legal then.)

Edited July 10, 2022 by SilverMoon

[Mom-ninja.]

Thanks, Redsquirrel. I've seen CT in WTM. It's good to hear a review.

[Sarah CB]

Weston's slim little A Rulebook for Arguments was mentioned in one version of TWTM. It doesn't have as much meat as AoA, but it would be a great starting place. :001_smile:

 

The abortion examples do sound like the older edition of AoA. Some places like RR sell the older editions until their stock is gone. I've had that happen with Veritas Press materials purchased at RR. I don't remember prostitution being in ours either, but it wouldn't have blipped on my radar with the intended age range. (My kids were aware of prostitution and brothels well before that age; we lived in a state where it was legal then.)

 

 

Ours is the Kindle version, so I'm assuming it's the newest there is. The prostitution references weren't an issue here either, I had kids who were 11 - 13 in my group and I talked to the parents before the kids had to do the reading. All of them were aware of prostitution - and abortion.

[Walking-Iris]

Ours is the Kindle version, so I'm assuming it's the newest there is. The prostitution references weren't an issue here either, I had kids who were 11 - 13 in my group and I talked to the parents before the kids had to do the reading. All of them were aware of prostitution - and abortion.

 

 

 

But there are some parents who would not be comfortable with that in there, even in a middle school age range. Add any bias the publisher has for or against those two things and it is especially unworkable for some parents.

 

I would prefer to talk about controversial things when I feel it's appropriate for my individual children. I don't personally feel that knowing about abortion is necessary at age 11.

 

I'd rather use something that teaches the logic while using examples that are more relevant to a child's life and developmentally appropriate.

[tammyw]

This is actually what I've looked at using. Also I thought about getting the What Would You Do moral dilemmas book to use this year as well. Does any one have experience with that?

 

There's also this

 

http://depts.washing...squestions.html

 

And this for basic info

 

http://www.unco.edu/...osophy/arg.html

 

Are you thinking of using those Critical Thinking books with your 10 year old? It says Grade 7 and up. I'm still trying to find an appropriate level for my dd10 who breezed through all the lollipop logic stuff a couple years ago.

[Walking-Iris]

Are you thinking of using those Critical Thinking books with your 10 year old? It says Grade 7 and up. I'm still trying to find an appropriate level for my dd10 who breezed through all the lollipop logic stuff a couple years ago.

 

No. I'm researching and thinking ahead. I posted in another post (maybe even thread! seems to be a lot of logic talk) that I'm going to do philosophy/ethics and some mommy -made comparative religion for 5th. I'm going to read Harry Stottlemeier (and wing it until I find cheaper instruction manuals to go with it if at all---yikes.) and probably dip into some of the online links posted in this thread. Sort of informal discussion blended with literature.

 

I did order What Would You Do? It's a moral dilemma style book from CTP for the younger grades. And then of course I'll stay with math/puzzle logic.

 

EPS has logic. Primary Analogies. I haven't used them however. I'm thinking at these young ages logic will still mostly stay in the critical thinking realm rather than formal logic. The Philosophy for Children online resources should be enough.

 

But unless something better comes along I will probably revisit Critical Thinking when we're ready for it. There's also a book called You Decide that I was interested in as well.

[Mom in High Heels]

What's EPS?

 

BTW, we did Philosophy for Kids this past year and really enjoyed it. I know there is a second book, but I've heard it's not as good. I may use it anyway, but I'd like something that can help with learning to make a point and back it up as well.

[tammyw]

What's EPS?

 

BTW, we did Philosophy for Kids this past year and really enjoyed it. I know there is a second book, but I've heard it's not as good. I may use it anyway, but I'd like something that can help with learning to make a point and back it up as well.

 

 

We love Philosophy for Kids also! It's a great book to pull out when you want to have some wonderfully deep discussions :)

[Mom-ninja.]

Tammy, my 9 and 12 yr olds are doing the Orbiting with Logic series. Obviously not formal logic but that's what they're doing right now.

[tammyw]

Tammy, my 9 and 12 yr olds are doing the Orbiting with Logic series. Obviously not formal logic but that's what they're doing right now.

 

Oh good to know, as I have that book in my Amazon cart. I just ordered Logic Lift-off (same company) as it said grade 4-6, but it hasn't arrived yet. I was wondering about Orbiting as well. Are there only the two books in that series? Any others for grade 5 level? I'm having a hard time figuring out age appropriate stuff for this year.

[Mom-ninja.]

There are 3 books. My 9 yr old is doing the 1st book. Then it's Logic Liftoff and Orbiting with Logic. 12 yr old is doing the 3rd book.

[Crimson Wife]

EPS is Educators Publishing Service. They sell the Stepping Stones program for the primary grades and the Ridgewood Analogies for middle grades. I have one of the Stepping Stones books and found it not very intuitive.

[Catherine]

I am about to start my third trip through seventh grade and will be doing the Harnadek Critical Thinking books again, one per year most likely.

 

They are a mix of formal and informal logic, but the first book is mostly informal logic. My kids enjoyed and were far more interested in informal logic, so that worked out fine. However, I consider the exposure to formal logic important. I had to learn more myself before I was really prepared to teach it, and a couple of resources, the Teaching Company logic course, and a book called Introduction to Logic, by Harry Gensler, really helped me. Intro to Logic was what helped me to understand, finally, why formal logic even matters (as it's taught in Critical Thinking and other elementary sources, that is not at all clear).

[mommymilkies]

Tammy, my 9 and 12 yr olds are doing the Orbiting with Logic series. Obviously not formal logic but that's what they're doing right now.

 

They don't teach the fallacies that I have seen so far, but I also recommend this series. It's really good.

[tammyw]

They don't teach the fallacies that I have seen so far, but I also recommend this series. It's really good.

 

 

We just started working with it and it's tough! (We have the second book, as I didn't realize there were three in a row. It's challenging but doable).