Science sequence question

[yoyoma]

Now that I'm getting my legs back for planning, and have gotten some feedback from dd, I'm hoping somebody can look at my logic, and back me up or straighten me out.

 

The essentials:

dd15, starting 10th in fall, math/science inclined, self-motivated, avid test-taker, has finished Alg1/Alg2/Geom.

 

Took run of the mill biology (Holt) this year with no labs (did a microbiology workshop the year before, so she felt the labs were unnecessary). Did I mention she is opinionated? Maybe I'll mention that at this point. She really enjoys biology and at this point feels that is the science she is leaning toward and will take a second time.

 

She would like to take AP Chem this fall. Her math and logic is very strong. We are leaning toward Thinkwell at this point in the summer.

 

I understand the AP Chem test is changing this year from some of the posts on the forum...

 

I think she just likes the "idea" of it being an AP class...I'm thinking NOT to take the test in the spring, but maybe take the sat subject test.

 

She mentioned maybe cramming next spring for the AP test a year after actually taking the course. I can't imagine, but she's crammed entire textbooks before and has fabulous retention (not from my genes I can tell you!). Her point being by then the new AP test will have been test-driven by others, and there may be test prep books geared to the new test.

 

So question one: is that just asking for misery, or does it make sense? My logic is that if she wants the name "AP," then fine. If she wants to take the test, okay, but let's plan to do it the year after? Or is that just going to look wacko on a transcript?

 

Part two:

After the AP Chem, I was thinking she should then do AP Bio (her junior year). That way, she can do the AP test or sat subject test spring her junior year, and assuming she did well, her interest areas would be very clear and documented on her transcript by the time senior year we are college-shopping.

 

So question two: that is not a normal science sequence from my limited experience (bio/APChem/APBio/other), so is that really odd, or does it make sense to more science-inclined folk?

 

Thank you for any and all feedback!

[8filltheheart]

Is Thinkwell going to be updating the course to cover the same material as the new AP test? Has she taken a regular high school chem course? If not, am I confident that she has the ability to skip high school chemistry? Has she tried following the Thinkwell lectures that are viewable as a preview?

 

Those are the questions I would consider vs sequence. Chem really needs to be taken before AP bio since there is so much focus on bio-chem. Other than that, as long as all sciences are covered, I don't sequence really matters.

[at the beach]

If she has done her math through algebra 2, you could consider AP Physics B with the exam and the subject test. She seems to have all the background she needs. To prep for an AP Chem or Bio, you could have her do part of a regular chem course this summer and part next summer. I do not think sequence matters, either, but I think taking an AP level Chem this coming year and holding off on the exam seems like it would create unnecessary work, which I would think is best to avoid. It would also result in her having to shift her focus off of whatever science she does in 11th grade. How would she prep for both AP Bio and Chem that year? Perhaps she could but why do it that way if you don't have to? If she can finish an entire chemistry this summer, she could do AP biology this coming fall if you want to avoid her taking the new chem test. But it seems like physics would be a good option and allow her a little more freedom in completing a chem course.

[Jen in NY]

I agree with atthebeach.... there's no way I would wait a year on the APExam after having taken the course. Maybe unfortunately, the prep for the exams is very specific, so to let a year go by between the prep and the exam would defintely double or triple (or more) the prep time for the exam... and to *me* the only reason to take the exam at all is to maximize the results so they help with college credit or admissions. Not saying that's the only reason to take an APClass, but the exams are all about the score. I would get in touch with Thinkwell and see what their plans are regarding the new exam. FWIW, dd1 took Chem through PAHomeschoolers and had a great experience, so maybe contact the teacher from Chemvantage as well and see what his plans are too.

 

I would say if the plan is to take the Bio Exam the year after Chem, don't let the opportunity for her to test the Chem go by when the material is fresh this year. Both Bio and Chem are just full of information and I don't know how my dd's would have dealt with having to do the Chem Exam and the Bio exam simultaneously. It would have been A LOT of studying. As it was, it was a lot of studying --- one science exam at a time. : ) My approach would probably be to start the year planning on taking the exam. Find out where she can take it and what their registration deadline is.... ours is February.... and as that deadline approaches see how you both feel. If she is feeling in the least bit confident about the subject, sign up for that exam!! That way she has the option to take it or skip, but you haven't closed any doors too early.

 

Whatever you plan on using, I would recommend signing up to be a part of the APChem teacher community at the CollegeBoard website. They will be talking about the new exam and how they are preparing for it all year. If you submit a syllabus yourself you can even gain access to practice materials. Read through the College Board's publications about the new exam so you can have an idea about the direction in which they are headed. It made a great deal of difference to me to know (I have a friend that dilligently paid attention to all the Bio changes and filled me in --- it was a lifesaver! Thank You, M!!) how the Bio Exam was changing and my dd and I talked about it frequently. If you are informed of the changes and using Thinkwell, you can steer the ship a little and emphasize the appropriate topics.

 

One other thing... Junior year, exams come at a fast and furious pace, if that is the road you are on. There's the PSAT, the SAT, and whatever subject tests and AP Exams you are trying to squeeze in around them. If your dd is game, it could be great for her to get one out of the way in the relative calm of sophomore year.

 

Or you could scrap all that and go with PhysicsB, like AttheBeach said. :lol:

[yoyoma]

I just KNEW you guys would straighten me out. Great thinking here. It takes a village, right? Thanks for the responses! Emphasis in the quotes is mine...

 

Is Thinkwell going to be updating the course to cover the same material as the new AP test? Has she taken a regular high school chem course? If not, am I confident that she has the ability to skip high school chemistry? Has she tried following the Thinkwell lectures that are viewable as a preview?

 

Those are the questions I would consider vs sequence. Chem really needs to be taken before AP bio since there is so much focus on bio-chem. Other than that, as long as all sciences are covered, I don't sequence really matters.

 

8Filltheheart, those are all excellent questions. I'm fairly confident in her ability to handle the course, but that is a really good reminder to make sure I have the exact right fit of a course for her, and to maybe do some intro work this summer.

 

If she has done her math through algebra 2, you could consider AP Physics B with the exam and the subject test. She seems to have all the background she needs. To prep for an AP Chem or Bio, you could have her do part of a regular chem course this summer and part next summer. I do not think sequence matters, either, but I think taking an AP level Chem this coming year and holding off on the exam seems like it would create unnecessary work, which I would think is best to avoid. It would also result in her having to shift her focus off of whatever science she does in 11th grade. How would she prep for both AP Bio and Chem that year? Perhaps she could but why do it that way if you don't have to? If she can finish an entire chemistry this summer, she could do AP biology this coming fall if you want to avoid her taking the new chem test. But it seems like physics would be a good option and allow her a little more freedom in completing a chem course.

 

at the beach, MANY good points here. She is more excited about chem than physics as she became acutely aware how much chem there is in biology with her intro bio last year. I'm trying to follow her lead, and that is why we are doing the chem--I will definitely keep the physics in mind though.

 

I've bolded the things that I was forehead slapping myself. Thanks for straightening my thoughts out there...I know SHE thinks she can do multiple tests (AP), but I know for a fact for even her, that would be too much of a stretch, particularly that time of year. In fact, you've reminded me that the whole AP discussion is her doing...I had figured on sat subject tests where warranted...and maybe one AP test, probably bio. Most years the summer chem idea would totally work for us, but she will be dancing all day most of the summer, so her brain will be pretty kaput--too much this year.

 

I agree with atthebeach.... there's no way I would wait a year on the APExam after having taken the course. Maybe unfortunately, the prep for the exams is very specific, so to let a year go by between the prep and the exam would defintely double or triple (or more) the prep time for the exam... and to *me* the only reason to take the exam at all is to maximize the results so they help with college credit or admissions. Not saying that's the only reason to take an APClass, but the exams are all about the score. I would get in touch with Thinkwell and see what their plans are regarding the new exam. FWIW, dd1 took Chem through PAHomeschoolers and had a great experience, so maybe contact the teacher from Chemvantage as well and see what his plans are too.

 

I would say if the plan is to take the Bio Exam the year after Chem, don't let the opportunity for her to test the Chem go by when the material is fresh this year. Both Bio and Chem are just full of information and I don't know how my dd's would have dealt with having to do the Chem Exam and the Bio exam simultaneously. It would have been A LOT of studying. As it was, it was a lot of studying --- one science exam at a time. : ) My approach would probably be to start the year planning on taking the exam. Find out where she can take it and what their registration deadline is.... ours is February.... and as that deadline approaches see how you both feel. If she is feeling in the least bit confident about the subject, sign up for that exam!! That way she has the option to take it or skip, but you haven't closed any doors too early.

 

Whatever you plan on using, I would recommend signing up to be a part of the APChem teacher community at the CollegeBoard website. They will be talking about the new exam and how they are preparing for it all year. If you submit a syllabus yourself you can even gain access to practice materials. Read through the College Board's publications about the new exam so you can have an idea about the direction in which they are headed. It made a great deal of difference to me to know (I have a friend that dilligently paid attention to all the Bio changes and filled me in --- it was a lifesaver! Thank You, M!!) how the Bio Exam was changing and my dd and I talked about it frequently. If you are informed of the changes and using Thinkwell, you can steer the ship a little and emphasize the appropriate topics.

 

One other thing... Junior year, exams come at a fast and furious pace, if that is the road you are on. There's the PSAT, the SAT, and whatever subject tests and AP Exams you are trying to squeeze in around them. If your dd is game, it could be great for her to get one out of the way in the relative calm of sophomore year.

 

Or you could scrap all that and go with PhysicsB, like AttheBeach said. :lol:

 

And Jen, thanks for lots of good thinking here...yes, it sounds like it would be dumb to wait a year for the exam...that would NOT maximize results...I guess I was stuck in the "well, if she did the work, why not take the exam" conundrum. I remember taking multiple APs, but mine were not in the sciences, and I think ya'all are right--why all that unnecessary pain. I like the idea of seeing where we are after a semester or so. She could be struggling--that answers the question right there. Or, she could be thriving (I've had that happen with challenge with her), and we can decide then what to do.

 

I'll look into the college boards--thanks for that advice...

 

And the junior year battery of tests is a highly motivating factor for us. This year she took the world history sat subject test for that exact reason (get one out of the way). I would like to see the tests spread out more, and tests that happen in the spring (AP in particular) happen during our heaviest schedule (dance performances), so thanks for that reminder.

 

 

So, what I pull from this going forward...

 

-I will try and find out what Thinkwell (if that is what we go with) plans to do to address changes in the AP test.

 

-We will plan on studying the Holt chem over the summer to get prepared for the fall curriculum...at least I will raise that weather balloon for her and see if she is game.

 

-I will keep an eye on the college board updates to align if necessary for the test, but also keep an eye on whether she is thriving or struggling in the subject matter. We will decide at registration time for the AP where we are, and no harm done if she doesn't take the test, (but not plan on taking it the following year). I would like her to take at least the SAT subject test, however.

 

-Then plan on APBio the following year, with test and all.

 

Sounds like a plan! Now to present my findings to the board...err, I mean student. :thumbup1:

[Dicentra]

Just a thought...

 

Is Thinkwell AP Chem accredited with the College Board? I'm assuming it is since they label it "AP" but I couldn't see where they specifically state that on their website and since they don't have a hands-on lab component, it makes me wonder... If your dd takes an AP Chem course but doesn't write the exam, she can't call it "AP" on her transcript unless it was an accredited AP course and I'm not sure what universites make of students taking an AP course without the exam. Even if she writes the exam, she could only call it "Honours Chem with AP exam" - KWIM? My apologies if you already knew this or if I misread your post. I don't know if universites care if she takes the exam a year after the course - I think a good score is still a good score.

[8filltheheart]

Also, in case you didn't know, CTY offers online AP chem using Thinkwell. If she has the qualifying math score if she wasn't part of their talent search in middle school, she can still take the course.

 

http://cty.jhu.edu/ctyonline/courses/advanced_placement/ap_chemistry.html

[yoyoma]

Just a thought...

 

Is Thinkwell AP Chem accredited with the College Board? I'm assuming it is since they label it "AP" but I couldn't see where they specifically state that on their website and since they don't have a hands-on lab component, it makes me wonder... If your dd takes an AP Chem course but doesn't write the exam, she can't call it "AP" on her transcript unless it was an accredited AP course and I'm not sure what universites make of students taking an AP course without the exam. Even if she writes the exam, she could only call it "Honours Chem with AP exam" - KWIM? My apologies if you already knew this or if I misread your post. I don't know if universites care if she takes the exam a year after the course - I think a good score is still a good score.

 

I actually don't know if it is accredited. Maybe I'm being naive...we are still in our research component deciding on a program. Our M.O. is to mash programs together as we need...I've not outsourced before... I do understand about not labeling a transcript AP unless college board accredited, but it is easy to throw the "name" around, so you are absolutely right to point that out. There was a time I *didn't* know that. Thanks, Dicentra.

[yoyoma]

Also, in case you didn't know, CTY offers online AP chem using Thinkwell. If she has the qualifying math score if she wasn't part of their talent search in middle school, she can still take the course.

 

http://cty.jhu.edu/c..._chemistry.html

 

I have not looked into any tuition programs. If there is a large advantage to doing that? She got a 61 on the math portion of the PSAT in 8th grade, which looks like it meets some sort of CTY qualification, but I don't know what that advantage is. If you can clarify, it is something I could consider. I am all about learning new things.

[8filltheheart]

 

I have not looked into any tuition programs. If there is a large advantage to doing that? She got a 61 on the math portion of the PSAT in 8th grade, which looks like it meets some sort of CTY qualification, but I don't know what that advantage is. If you can clarify, it is something I could consider. I am all about learning new things.

 

 

I was thinking more along the lines that since the test is changing it might be worth using a program that has been modified to meet the new AP syllabus. I have never used any CTY classes, so I can't comment on them. I just know that they use several Thinkwell programs. FWIW, it is probably too late for openings, but ChemAdvantage's AP chem class is worth every penny. He is a fabulous teacher.

[yoyoma]

I was thinking more along the lines that since the test is changing it might be worth using a program that has been modified to meet the new AP syllabus. I have never used any CTY classes, so I can't comment on them. I just know that they use several Thinkwell programs. FWIW, it is probably too late for openings, but ChemAdvantage's AP chem class is worth every penny. He is a fabulous teacher.

 

 

Ahhhhh, I getcha now. :thumbup1:

 

That ChemAdvantage looks fabulous--thanks for mentioning it (I missed that one when reading the chem threads--maybe because it had a chem 1 requirement). Unfortunately it doesn't meet our needs of stopping and starting our schedule for dance season--(sigh). (Yes, I have dreams where SWB whispers in my ear with words that stuck from wtm my first read-through years ago--to limit extracurriculars :smilielol5:--yeah, ain't happening here)

[Dicentra]

I actually don't know if it is accredited. Maybe I'm being naive...we are still in our research component deciding on a program. Our M.O. is to mash programs together as we need...I've not outsourced before... I do understand about not labeling a transcript AP unless college board accredited, but it is easy to throw the "name" around, so you are absolutely right to point that out. There was a time I *didn't* know that. Thanks, Dicentra.

 

I believe it's illegal for companies or schools to label a course "AP" if it isn't accredited but I always double-check. :)

 

There were a few choices for AP Chem on the big chem thread - hopefully, there's one there that will fit your family and your schedule. Make sure, though, that whatever you choose has been aligned with the new syllabus for next year. I wouldn't purchase anything for AP Chem until much closer to September to give companies the chance to put the updated curriculum into place.

[8filltheheart]

 

I believe it's illegal for companies or schools to label a course "AP" if it isn't accredited but I always double-check. :)

 

There were a few choices for AP Chem on the big chem thread - hopefully, there's one there that will fit your family and your schedule. Make sure, though, that whatever you choose has been aligned with the new syllabus for next year. I wouldn't purchase anything for AP Chem until much closer to September to give companies the chance to put the updated curriculum into place.

 

 

 

Accredited is not correct term. In order for a course to be labeled AP on the transcript, the syllabus for the course must have been approved by College Board. Homeschoolers have successfully submitted their syllabi and received approval. I don't anything about it beyond that bc that is not a route I have chosen to go.

[Dicentra]

 

 

Accredited is not correct term. In order for a course to be labeled AP on the transcript, the syllabus for the course must have been approved by College Board. Homeschoolers have successfully submitted their syllabi and received approval. I don't anything about it beyond that bc that is not a route I have chosen to go.

 

:) You're right - I don't think it is the right term. I couldn't think of what else to call it - "audited" maybe? Or just "approved" might have been a better choice. I forgot that "accredited" means something else to folks in the States. (Doesn't it have to do with schools being accredited by the State?)

 

And you are correct - homeschoolers have had their own AP courses approved by the College Board. If yoyoma wanted to go that route, she could use any of the suggested texts for AP Chem and, if she wanted to be able to label it "AP Chem" on her transcript, she could write her own syllabus for the audit and submit it.

 

Just to clarify - I wasn't meaning to pick on Thinkwell. :D I think their courses looks great. Have other folks used Thinkwell for AP science courses, labeled the courses on their transcripts as "AP", and had colleges be OK with that? The only reason I wonder is because there doesn't seem to be a lab component to the Thinkwell courses (just video labs) and, from what I can remember from when I taught AP Chem, there was a big push to make sure that students going into college with high AP scores had the lab experience and skills to back up the scores.

[yoyoma]

Where were ya'all, Dicentra and 8FillTheHeart, when I had this conversation (College Board, "AP" name, etc etc) a couple years ago? I remember the glazed look on my DH's eyes very well, and I ended up talking to myself to work it all out....

 

Oh, ya'all were here...and I was not...

 

so glad to be here now!!

 

And I really hope I don't come across as someone that hasn't done their homework, but rides on the research and work of others...but boy is it nice to have a sounding board here of intelligent, well-informed, experienced, hs'ers.

 

one grateful yoyoma

[AngieW in Texas]

What I would recommend is AP Physics B for 10th grade (assuming that she really wants an AP for this) because it is the last year for the test in this format.

 

Then I would have her do ChemAdvantage AP Chemistry for 11th. That would be the 2nd year of the new format, so at least the test prep folks will have something to base their books on.

 

After that, she can do AP Biology for 12th.

 

I definitely would recommend AP Chemistry BEFORE AP Biology.

 

I would recommend doing some level of physics course in high school. It doesn't have to be AP level. If she really hates the idea of physics, she can even do conceptual physics, but she ought to take some level of physics in high school if she is planning to major in any science.

[Dicentra]

Where were ya'all, Dicentra and 8FillTheHeart, when I had this conversation (College Board, "AP" name, etc etc) a couple years ago? I remember the glazed look on my DH's eyes very well, and I ended up talking to myself to work it all out....

 

Oh, ya'all were here...and I was not...

 

so glad to be here now!!

 

And I really hope I don't come across as someone that hasn't done their homework, but rides on the research and work of others...but boy is it nice to have a sounding board here of intelligent, well-informed, experienced, hs'ers.

 

one grateful yoyoma

 

:D I'm not sure I was here either. I think I originally joined up in 2010, promptly forgot about it, and didn't start posting until relatively recently.

 

I worry sometimes, too, about asking questions but I figure we're all here to help each other, so it's all good. :)