This board made me look smart! ;)

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I was at the tennis banquet last night and one of the dad's and I were having a conversation about test scores, college apps, selection and coursework.

 

This dad is a physicist and his sons are going into engineering. Thanks to the number of engineer types on this board I knew what he was talking about when he mentioned diff. eq., the various top engineering schools, strong applications, etc. I was so proud of myself for being able to stand toe-to-toe with him.

 

I do admit, though, that after that conversation I feel ambivalent about DS's preparedness at this stage in the game. At times I think we are on track but after the conversation last night I think we may be a bit behind. I really think our lack of readiness is due to the lax counseling at the high school combined with what scant knowledge I have learned from going through the process myself.

 

This guy came up with at least three ways to guide DS's next two years of schooling. None of which have been proposed by the school counselor or were on my radar. Well, that's not quite true. I have thought about them but was told they weren't viable options so I let it go.

 

From what this guy says, and I have no reason to doubt him, his son, who graduated two years ago and is in one of the top engineering schools in the country, followed the prescribed course by the high school. He took every AP class the school offered (amounted to about 32 credits) and was only granted 4 of them upon matriculation. The college said he would have been better off taking community college courses; they would have accepted all of those as transfer credits (albeit not toward the engineering major).

 

He encouraged me to investigate DS's top college/university choices, ask them what DS should do and go from there. The problem is DS doesn't know what he wants to do or where he wants to go. Since I am the only person in the family (both sides) to have attended a four year school there is no help from anyone, especially since DS is doing so well. The best advice we get from family is either "Pray about it. If it's God's will it will happen" or "You're both smart. You'll figure it out." Both make me want to bang my head against the wall.

 

I am feeling so frustrated that my lack of experience is going to be detrimental to DS.

[Dana]

I am feeling so frustrated that my lack of experience is going to be detrimental to DS.

 

:grouphug:

 

It sounds like you're asking the right questions though.

 

And there will ALWAYS be things we do wrong for our kids. Keep getting information, make changes to your plans as you learn more, don't hold your son back from what he is interested in, and let go of the rest.

 

:grouphug:

[Brenda in MA]

And I question the decision to make the guy think CC courses are better. Great that more of them would transfer, but they don't apply to the major, so the benefit is the same as taking AP courses that don't count....all in what the student was able to learn, nothing in 'saving time'.

 

This is not always true. My son was able to transfer four CC classes to his engineering school. This enabled him to skip 1 semester and do a coop instead. He transfered 2 humanities classes, one science class, and one computer elective. The only one that "counted" towards his major would be the Chemistry class, but it was more of a general ed for him as he majored in Mech Eng.

 

In my mind, it's definitely worth it to check out the transfer possibilities for CC classes at the various colleges your child is considering (also whether they give credits for AP scores). I have been doing that right now to guide my rising hs senior in which APs and CC courses he should take in order to position him the best at several potential colleges. They all have different policies for accepting transfer credits, so right now, he'll be taking some things that should transfer to most of the potential 4-year schools. He'll also be taking some courses (like Calc I at home) which I see as good prep for Calc I at the college and not potential transfer credits.

 

Personally, I don't like to see a teen transfer a lot of courses that will satisfy major requirements because I think it's best for them to take most or all of the major courses at the 4-yr school. I also like to do my best to position them for that first semester with several courses that will be either repeats of what we've done at home or in an area of strength. That first semester away requires so many adjustments that are not academic-related, that if the academics aren't too taxing, it is a good thing and a confidence-builder.

 

Brenda

[Miss Marple]

Yay! I, too, have learned so much from this board.

 

About the engineering and high school prep: I am the product of a public school, a counselor who was the town alcoholic, and the only person in my family to graduate from college. I have felt woefully inadequate to guide my boys' education. I know that I could not have done it without the ladies on this board. My oldest went to a top engineering school in his field (petroleum engineering) and my second son is in mechanical engineering with a pre-med option (odd, IMO, but the medical school here loves this combination). The state school is not a top 100 engineering school, but it has worked well for what my boys need(ed) and didn't require us to go into debt in order to send them.

 

Both boys had 28-35 credits that transferred but they still took (are taking) the full 4 years to graduate. Everyone we have talked with at our state school agree that the concurrent courses were better than APs but my guess is that each school will have a preference. For me, the AP route wasn't as feasible as the concurrent route because we have trouble finding testing venues as well as the feeling of inadequacy I have in teaching that level.

 

I guess this is all just to say that I was in the same situation and I want to encourage you that you can and will do a fine job guiding your son. Just keep asking questions and researching :)

[creekland]

I do admit, though, that after that conversation I feel ambivalent about DS's preparedness at this stage in the game. At times I think we are on track but after the conversation last night I think we may be a bit behind. I really think our lack of readiness is due to the lax counseling at the high school combined with what scant knowledge I have learned from going through the process myself.

 

I was concerned with my guys too - it turned out ok. Keep asking, lurking, gleaning, and adjusting - then know that NO ONE is perfect with everything.

 

 

From what this guy says, and I have no reason to doubt him, his son, who graduated two years ago and is in one of the top engineering schools in the country, followed the prescribed course by the high school. He took every AP class the school offered (amounted to about 32 credits) and was only granted 4 of them upon matriculation. The college said he would have been better off taking community college courses; they would have accepted all of those as transfer credits (albeit not toward the engineering major).

 

He encouraged me to investigate DS's top college/university choices, ask them what DS should do and go from there. The problem is DS doesn't know what he wants to do or where he wants to go.

 

Each college is different. Where middle son goes they grant AP credit, but no DE credit. Had he picked a different school he could have had credit for everything. I've found it "best" to do what works best for the student and not worry about whether it will get credit or not later. We chose 3 DE classes for middle son because those fit him and because I thought they would assist his admissions into college. I'm perfectly content even knowing he didn't get college credit for them. We chose his AP for the same reason - and were happy he got credit for them.

 

 

Personally, I don't like to see a teen transfer a lot of courses that will satisfy major requirements because I think it's best for them to take most or all of the major courses at the 4-yr school. I also like to do my best to position them for that first semester with several courses that will be either repeats of what we've done at home or in an area of strength. That first semester away requires so many adjustments that are not academic-related, that if the academics aren't too taxing, it is a good thing and a confidence-builder.

 

Brenda

 

:iagree: Engineering is a tough major. It REALLY helps if the student is well-prepared foundationally and allowances are made that first semester when choosing classes so they can make the adjustment well. I see way too many at school try to leap right into a challenge and it doesn't always go well. Just because credits can be transferred doesn't always mean they should be. Do your best - and listen to those in the department about transferring any credits (or not) once a school is chosen. Often those in the department have an idea of whether an AP or DE course is worth keeping. USUALLY it's recommended keeping credits not in the major and skipping those in it, but there are exceptions (AP/DE Psych is often a duplicate of an intro course. AP/DE Calc - not always - pending the school.)

[Barbara H]

Here's my thought on AP versus CC. It really is just guesswork and either way it will come out okay. The primary purpose for these courses in high school should be: to learn challenging material, to get needed academic experiences (taking notes, studying for tests) and to establish outside validation for your homeschool transcript. Whatever you choose it will achieve that goal. Most likely it will also net some credit but I would discourage anyone from trying to perfectly plan and control that every single thing you do will also lead to college credit. Even if you knew exactly which college your child was going to, policies can always change or your student may not get the expected score on the AP exam. There seems to be this refrain in homeschool communities to check the college policies, but really most students don't know where they will be going to college. Even if they did it can be difficult in a lot of situations to tell exactly what courses will transfer from CC as sometimes that information is not clearly set forth in policies but it is established more on a case by case review after the student enrolls. It is also hard to tell if the course transfers if it will be just for general credit or if it will meet a specific requirement. General credits are of limited use for most students.

 

Some students will end off better with CC courses and some with APs. Just to make a very sweeping generalization though based on what I see as a counselor... unless the student plans to enroll in a public college in the same state as the CC and there is a strong articulation agreement, APs tend to net more credit for most people at the most schools. My main suggestion though would be to do what serves your student best right now. Meet their academic needs in a way that makes sense for their learning. If they do a variety of CC and AP likely they will enter college with credits and that will be helpful. Don't worry about every last credit. Focus on helping the student be well prepared and let the rest sort out as time goes on.

[Miss Marple]

If they do a variety of CC and AP likely they will enter college with credits and that will be helpful. Don't worry about every last credit. Focus on helping the student be well prepared and let the rest sort out as time goes on

 

I agree! The point, for us, of concurrent enrollment was to fulfill the needed courses for high school graduation at a level of rigor which the boys needed. The fact that most transferred credit was a bonus.

[8filltheheart]

I agree with Barbara in that there is no simple answer and the variance between schools is huge. Ds has looked at schools that will not give dual enrollment credit but give AP credit, ones that limit the number of credit hrs regardless of how they were earned (AP and dual enrollment), as well as schools that specify that transfer credits must have been taken at a 4 yr institution (so CC credits wouldn't transfer), etc. Also, just bc a school accepts transfer credits does not mean they will necessarily accept your student's credits (depends on the course description/syllabus, dept rules, etc.) For the latter, the best option is to speak with the dean of the dept at the school b/c they are ultimately the ones that make the decision as to whether or not transfer credits are accepted.

 

I also agree with Heigh Ho that to succeed as an engineer you do nto need to go to a "top" school. There are great state engineering programs across the country.

[wendyroo]

Personally, I don't like to see a teen transfer a lot of courses that will satisfy major requirements because I think it's best for them to take most or all of the major courses at the 4-yr school.

 

I agree with this based on my personal experience.

 

I took "calculus" as an 11th grader in high school. My school did not offer any APs, and though it was considered a "good" school for being in a very rural area, it was not very academically rigorous. The class was probably more accurately pre-calc material.

 

In 12th grade I dual enrolled at a local university and took calculus there (along with several other courses). It was definitely a step up from what my high school had offered and I felt prepared, yet still challenged.

 

As a freshman at MIT they offered to grant me transfer credit for the calc class, but I decided to take it again. I am very glad I did - the MIT class was at a whole different level than what the local university had taught. It was HARD; even knowing quite a bit about calculus (as many of the freshman did), that class was still a huge challenge. If I had skipped it I would not have been nearly as well prepared for the higher math classes that were required.

 

I did end up transferring credit for four university classes that I had taken while dual enrolled, but not any STEM classes. I got credit for two generic humanities, psych 101 and Spanish 1.

 

The humanities and psych all proved an asset because they filled university requirements and allowed me more flexibility in my schedule. The Spanish ended up being a mistake. I signed up for Spanish 2 as a freshman and dropped the class within a couple weeks - it was SO much harder than Spanish at the local university and I wasn't prepared at all. I regret that I did not just switch from Spanish 2 to Spanish 1, but at the time I couldn't get past the idea that I had already studied Spanish for 3 years at the high school level and 1 year at the university level and that I really didn't want to "start over" in Spanish 1.

 

Long story short, I am fully in favor of dual enrollment, but only limited transfer credit.

[Teachin'Mine]

You're doing great guiding your son! Ask you son whether he'd prefer to take AP classes, or ones at the community college, or a combination. I'm sure APs have some advantages, but I can't speak to that as dd hasn't done any. But I can vouch for the benefits of dual enrollment and they extend far beyond credits transferring. DE students enter their freshmen year not only with the knowledge gained from their CC classes, but also with the know how of how to navigate the college campus, schedule their time, study without prompting, contact professors, get help, get involved, etc.. I'd love to know where his son attends. Unfortunately a lot of the top schools appear to award little credit, if any, but as has been said, this isn't usually decided until after the student arrives.

[creekland]

I also agree with Heigh Ho that to succeed as an engineer you do nto need to go to a "top" school. There are great state engineering programs across the country.

 

Top engineering schools are often state schools...

 

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-engineering-schools/eng-rankings

[8filltheheart]

Top engineering schools are often state schools...

 

http://grad-schools....ls/eng-rankings

 

You miss my pt. Many people equate "top" schools with names like MIT or other well-known names. If you live in a state that does not have a school with nationwide name recognition, it does not mean that the local state engineering program is not well-regarded by industry. Industry does the hiring, so that is what ultimately matters, not whether or not someone you are chatting with is familiar with it.

 

Even within a university, different engineering fields may be viewed completely differently.

 

FWIW, if I had a student aspiring to be an engineer, I would have the student calling the HR depts at various corps where they see themselves wanting to possibly work in the future and ask what universities they recruit from. Call the universities career offices and ask which companies recruit on campus and what percentage of their engineering grads are hired upon graduation. Those answers are going to be far more valuable in the long run than worrying about college rankings.

 

ETA: Dh was recently transferred to a new location. In our new location, the local public university is one we had never heard of. At the plant where dh works, they actually prefer to hire engineering grads from this small local public university over the "big name" state university engineering program. He works for a top corp, so this is not an anomaly. Our ds is also an engineering graduate of a small state university and was recruited by companies across the country.

[creekland]

You miss my pt. Many people equate "top" schools with names like MIT or other well-known names. If you live in a state that does not have a school with nationwide name recognition, it does not mean that the local state engineering program is not well-regarded by industry. Industry does the hiring, so that is what ultimately matters, not whether or not someone you are chatting with is familiar with it.

 

Even within a university, different engineering fields may be viewed completely differently.

 

FWIW, if I had a student aspiring to be an engineer, I would have the student calling the HR depts at various corps where they see themselves wanting to possibly work in the future and ask what universities they recruit from. Call the universities career offices and ask which companies recruit on campus and what percentage of their engineering grads are hired upon graduation. Those answers are going to be far more valuable in the long run than worrying about college rankings.

 

ETA: Dh was recently transferred to a new location. In our new location, the local public university is one we had never heard of. At the plant where dh works, they actually prefer to hire engineering grads from this small local public university over the "big name" state university engineering program. He works for a top corp, so this is not an anomaly. Our ds is also an engineering graduate of a small state university and was recruited by companies across the country.

 

I didn't miss your point - I didn't have much time to write out a whole response like this. I absolutely agree with you, but for those who equate Top with rankings, even among the rankings many state schools are Top, not Ivies, etc.

 

Around here, an engineering degree is best from Penn St or Va Tech. It was definitely Va Tech when we lived in VA. UVA and NC State would tie for second, but a bit behind if they had options. When we lived in Florida it was UF. I always recommend engineers pick an engineering school based upon where they want to work. If they know a company, ask them. If they know a region, ask someone locally. Once an engineer has been at work, then their work resume will speak volumes, but for getting that first job, 'tis best to come from a "favored" school - and that isn't likely to be an Ivy. It often isn't MIT or Stanford either - pending the company. Around here Penn St or Va Tech would gain more points than MIT or Stanford for hubby's line of work (Civil).

Thanks to the number of engineer types on this board I knew what he was talking about when he mentioned diff. eq., the various top engineering schools, strong applications, etc. I was so proud of myself for being able to stand toe-to-toe with him.

 

I dare say you did more than just look smart.

 

From what this guy says, and I have no reason to doubt him, his son, who graduated two years ago and is in one of the top engineering schools in the country, followed the prescribed course by the high school. He took every AP class the school offered (amounted to about 32 credits) and was only granted 4 of them upon matriculation. The college said he would have been better off taking community college courses; they would have accepted all of those as transfer credits (albeit not toward the engineering major).

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "only granted 4" -- do you mean that he only tested out of 4 college classes? I would say that if the student got accepted into the school of his choice, and it is a top engineering school, and is doing well there, I wouldn't worry at all about not being granted credits for AP. If this were my kid, I'd be pretty darn pleased with myself.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I

I'm not sure what you mean by "only granted 4" -- do you mean that he only tested out of 4 college classes? I would say that if the student got accepted into the school of his choice, and it is a top engineering school, and is doing well there, I wouldn't worry at all about not being granted credits for AP. If this were my kid, I'd be pretty darn pleased with myself.

 

He was only given 4 credits, the equivalent of one class.

 

After speaking with more people in our area, it seems that more families are hoping to enter college with as many credits as possible to decrease the number of years spent on the BA/BS. The goal is to graduate high school with an associates degree, spend two years on the remaining course work and enter grad school immediately. From what I gather, the idea is to have an MA or MS within 4 years of high school graduation.

 

So far, I have met one family who successfully accomplished this. Their daughter had four graduation ceremonies within four years: high school and associates degree in 2009, BA in 2011 and MA in 2013. The young lady just turned 21.

 

Another family is on the verge of having their daughter complete her BA/MA sequence in 5 years, 3 years at the state uni and two in grad school. She will be 22 when she graduates with her MA.

 

I wonder if this is an emerging trend?

[creekland]

 

He was only given 4 credits, the equivalent of one class.

 

After speaking with more people in our area, it seems that more families are hoping to enter college with as many credits as possible to decrease the number of years spent on the BA/BS. The goal is to graduate high school with an associates degree, spend two years on the remaining course work and enter grad school immediately. From what I gather, the idea is to have an MA or MS within 4 years of high school graduation.

 

So far, I have met one family who successfully accomplished this. Their daughter had four graduation ceremonies within four years: high school and associates degree in 2009, BA in 2011 and MA in 2013. The young lady just turned 21.

 

Another family is on the verge of having their daughter complete her BA/MA sequence in 5 years, 3 years at the state uni and two in grad school. She will be 22 when she graduates with her MA.

 

I wonder if this is an emerging trend?

 

 

I don't know, but I can say it's pretty much the opposite of what my middle son wants to do. He's enjoying his education and all the possibilities of things he can take. He's seriously considering applying to URoc's Take 5 program - which offers free tuition that 5th year for students who want to delve into "something else" (other than their major) more seriously. In general, it's for those who enjoy learning. I'm all for it.

 

There are all sorts of paths.