remind me again why i don't want Lit Guides for 5th and 3rd

[greenmamato3]

i remember SWB doing her lecture/youtube/whatever audio i heard on why we don't need oppressive lit guides and comprehensive lit study in the young years and that at most we start to ask some directive yet non-burdenson questions during the logic stage, saving the bigger lit study for the rhetoric years. but for the life of me, i'm having trouble understanding or rather comforting myself about why there are so many on the market that i truly don't need to worry about.

 

MP, VP, PP, TLP, LLATL, TTC . . . . on and on the list goes.

 

the last time we did a lit guide, my DS did The Moffats with an MP guide. it was realllllllllly hellacious and sucked the enjoyment right out of him, though he sometimes still makes mentions of characters in the book. i promised myself at that point, at the beginning of 3rd grade, that i would never put any of us through that again. i already had the homer price guide on the shelf but have resisted pulling it out ever since due to the negative associations he has with the study guides. my younger DD has done the PP guides for a few books and honestly enjoyed them, but they were at a much less intense level than the MP Moffats was so i can't guarantee myself that her experience wouldn't be much the same.

 

for me, what i have trouble 'resting' in is the idea that as long as they are ravenous about *high* quality literature (and they are), as long as we're reading aloud to/discussing with them high quality literature on a regular and ongoing basis (and we are), and as long as they are given plenty of training in good quality writing skills during these elementary and early logic years (and they are) that they will be really equipped for suddenly beginning to study literature as a strong classical education requires. {and when in the world do you start if you do delay a la SWB suggestions?}

 

is it safer just to dabble every once in a while with a lit study guide even in the younger years so that it's not so sudden in the later logic/rhetoric stage? or is it better to TRULY delay altogether? and then how can you really ascertain whether they are pulling out of each book they read the key features? does it matter if a 3rd or 5th grader can put a story sequence chart together a la TTC, if he or she can make a basic story sequence outline a la IEW for fairy tales?

 

i so badly want to *not* pour our time, money, or energy into needless pursuits if in the end i'm going to realize that it really was fluff and that they would have been JUST FINE having not done the study guides in the early years. but i so badly don't want them to miss the opportunity to fall in love with literature by studying it by picking it apart. they will always have books that they read just for pleasure and for the thrill of the ride, but i was thinking tonight that perhaps choosing 2-3 lit guides for each of them to really work through this year would be a balanced approach to this issue -- delaying lit guides for the most part and focusing on SKILLS in writing and grammar (esp since they will be doing WWS or WWE alternating with IEW year 2) while still giving them just a few key opportunities to think critically and somewhat independently on aspects of just a few books they read.

 

argh! i go back and forth on this, round and round in my head.

i need experience from others who have olders and either regretted delaying or regretted not delaying, loved the lit guides or loved not doing the lit guides ..... for how it all played out in the end. i'm such a "big picture" person ..... if i see the big pic, then i know what i feel is appropriate for the little steps between here and there.

[Element]

Lit guides make me :cursing: :ack2: , yet I still buy them.

 

I guess I have found lit guides to be useful if I read them ahead of time and just try to ask (some of) the questions at a more natural time. This could be at the end of the book, or it could be at a totally later date. It's not really structured at all, but it helps to remind me of what we should be discussing. Also, we might go through the guide and answer questions orally. My ds is 9.5, FWIW. I'm sure I'll need to be more rigid with lit when he's older. As for now (4th/5th grade) I mostly use them for inspiration.

[Element]

Don't forget, sometimes you can just Google the name of the book and "discussion questions" and you can find a guide online.

 

Here are some short guides over at the Scholastic site.

[greenmamato3]

i so agree about using them for inspiration for discussion, etc. that's how i used our PP guides from this past year.

i think what befuddles me is what to do for so many of the books that DD reads (ravenously) that i don't read aloud to him --

and it seems much less important during the K-3rd years than it does as you move into the logic stage. is that just weird that i think that?

[tuckabella]

Does this help?

[greenmamato3]

yes, actually. :) tremendously ....

[greenmamato3]

and so that means that the WWS book will pretty much fulfill any need for "training" in lit analysis (i.e. writing) that he'll need during 5-8th, right?! :)

[tuckabella]

and so that means that the WWS book will pretty much fulfill any need for "training" in lit analysis (i.e. writing) that he'll need during 5-8th, right?! :)

 

 

Ha ha! I have NO idea. I haven't gotten that far yet!

[greenmamato3]

so ?? anyone else have a little more experience to offeR?

[Lori D.]

so ?? anyone else have a little more experience to offeR?

 

 

 

Never used a single lit guide or program until DSs were 7th and 8th grades. They learned to think, discuss, analyze literature just fine. They graduated from homeschool high school, and were top in their college Writing classes when it came to discussing/analyzing Literature.

 

And by waiting until the logic/abstract/analysis portions of their brains began maturing (typically occurs along about age 12-14), it was not burdensome, nor having to "drag" them into the new skill. They were naturally ready.

 

So... set those guides away. Don't EVEN think of pulling them out until late middle school. Just enjoy those wonderful children's classics and well-written books for their age NOW, with whatever discussion naturally comes up now, to keep a love of literature and reading alive. And keep doing read-alouds of wonderful Literature all through the years!

 

Have a wonderful literature journey as a family! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[texasmama]

I am currently making it through Deconstucting Penguins, which is a simple, straightforward, parent-friendly way to do literary analysis with younger kids. I have not used any lit guides with my kids up to this point. I am very comfortable with literature (minor in English for my undergraduate degree) so I plan to do a tremendous amount of reading aloud the classics and discussing as we go. One of my favorite discussion questions, borrowed from Andrew Kern, is "Should so and so have done such and such?" My kids are very different so the replies lead to interesting discussion.

 

My youngest son is a voracious reader and is drawn to the classics naturally. He has asked me to read aloud Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, which I am currently doing. The vocabulary is very rich, and I am doing quite a bit of defining and explaining as we go, but my youngest son is really enjoying it. He wants to have a book club for 10-12 year olds over the summer, and I plan to lead a Deconstructing Penguins type discussion. How in-depth it goes will depend on the interest of the kids involved. I think it will be fun. :)

[8filltheheart]

I'm right there with Lori. Zero lit ana in elementary school. With some of my kids I didn't even really start until 8th/9th grade. With my language loving dd (and I do mean seriously language loving----this is the stuff she thrives on), we started in 6th.

 

They didn't miss anything by waiting. :)

[Lily_Grace]

Most lit guides suck the joy out. The only ones we had success with (as in, my kid loved doing them, loved the work in them), was Moving Beyond The Page. Don't go to their website, the samples are terrible. Go to Rainbow Resource to view samples.

 

Seriously, they were fun. And my kid learned a TON. He ended up doing a project on falcons for My Side Of The Mountain and still remembers a lot. He played games, he wrote poems, he learned grammar and writing skills. He followed recipes and did art projects.

 

If the wee'un gets homeschooled I'll buy at least one unit a year for him to do - or I'll get off my duff and continue making ones like I started doing this year.

[Lori D.]

Most lit guides suck the joy out. The only ones we had success with (as in, my kid loved doing them, loved the work in them), was Moving Beyond The Page....

 

Seriously, they were fun. And my kid learned a TON. He ended up doing a project on falcons for My Side Of The Mountain and still remembers a lot. He played games, he wrote poems... He followed recipes and did art projects.

 

 

Amending my post above to agree with this post -- that the guides I think are useful for elementary/young middle school are ones that are *project* and *activity* oriented, because they are a type of unit study that allow you to use the book as a springboard into science, cooking, art, history, etc.

 

But... these are only going to be useful if you have a student who enjoys learning via unit studies, or if your family enjoys taking the occasional break from traditional school work to use one of these guides as a unit study for "fun learning".

 

:)

[greenmamato3]

I am currently making it through Deconstucting Penguins, which is a simple, straightforward, parent-friendly way to do literary analysis with younger kids. I have not used any lit guides with my kids up to this point. I am very comfortable with literature (minor in English for my undergraduate degree) so I plan to do a tremendous amount of reading aloud the classics and discussing as we go. One of my favorite discussion questions, borrowed from Andrew Kern, is "Should so and so have done such and such?" My kids are very different so the replies lead to interesting discussion.

 

My youngest son is a voracious reader and is drawn to the classics naturally. He has asked me to read aloud Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, which I am currently doing. The vocabulary is very rich, and I am doing quite a bit of defining and explaining as we go, but my youngest son is really enjoying it. He wants to have a book club for 10-12 year olds over the summer, and I plan to lead a Deconstructing Penguins type discussion. How in-depth it goes will depend on the interest of the kids involved. I think it will be fun. :)

 

just ordered a used copy of the deconstructing penguins and am looking forward to it arriving so i can incorporate those elements into our discussion as we go, as well. we're currently reading swiss family robinson ;)

 

i *don't* have a degree in English .... rather mine was in piano performance. LOL. i did a lot of writing along the way, but not as much literary analysis, as would make me feel more confident in this regard. we *love* books here, so it's only befitting that we'd know how to discuss them; i don't see that being tied to lit guides, though :)

 

oh, and i don't feel like i want a lit guide that expands it into areas of science, history, math, etc .... (i always think of FIAR as being the seed form of that, and it never interested me). i prefer to sort of unschool that part of their eduction, drawing any inspiration they feel from the books to complete those kinds of activities and pursuit during their free time :)

[greenmamato3]

and just wanted to add that ALL your comments are so helpful and reassuring :) thank you ....

[Penelope]

Since you've seen the MP guides at least, you know that at this level they function as reading comprehension guides, not really lit analysis, right? I've seen a few questions that are more "thinking" questions in the one 6th grade MP guide I have, but really, I think most of what any of the guides you mentioned do for elementary is to learn new words, ask questions for teachers to make sure the students have read and understand what they read (and narration can accomplish the same thing), and ocassionally give some additional writing or mapping activities to do.

 

I think elementary and middle grades are a good time to learn basic literary terms, but even that isn't really lit. analysis. I'm not worried at all about skipping the guides for this age. Although one of my kids asked for one and actually likes writing the answers to the questions. Who knew? I consider it extra writing practice, and I won't require it once the interest wanes.

[jessj]

I only have 1st and 3rd graders here. Both read above grade level though. However, my simple answer to your question would be: because it's the perfect opportunity to use for building narration (writing) skills! Since the early years you are spending most of your time helping them build the thinking skills to remember and order what they read, this fits right in. I started out doing FLL and WWE full time, plus reading with narration! I had a major revolt on my hands. I had to step back. So now we do FLL full time, and I've absorbed the principles of WWE and throw it in where the kids don't expect it. They don't know they are doing "writing" half the time they are doing it. Narration, narration, narration... orally is the easiest. I just ask them about what they've been reading. Usually they tell me more than I want to know. I've also had my 3rd grader write a couple of simple book reports. For the book she is reading now I told her she could think up an idea of some kind of project for the book. She loves hands on and projects. She told me tonight she wants to draw up a storyline. Narration... through pictures!