How to diagnose dyscalculia vs. delayed skill development vs. ?

[rochellek]

My daughter is 8 years old. She is reading Harry Potter and writing short stories; she is quite verbal and language arts oriented. But she really struggles with math. Last year we abandoned math pretty much altogether, as it was too much of a battle and I needed to back off. This year we are repeating 1st grade math. She is technically in 2nd grade, although in some states she would be considered a young 3rd grader, depending on their school cutoff. We've skipped around through a few different math programs, and have finally settled on Math Mammoth which has actually been a really good fit for her.

 

While I'm already quite aware of her difficulty with math, it is coming even more into light as her 5 year old brother is quickly passing her in math ability (he is obsessed with math and wants to do math all day long!). Things that are SO simple and obvious to him seem to completely escape her. It's making me think that maybe I need to have some kind of professional evaluation. I have to teach her the same concepts over and over. She is definitely making progress, but it is so slow and so far behind her peers. I get frustrated because I think she knows something (like 10 + 2 = 12, and not 20), and when I see that she doesn't I am sure she sees my frustration. I really feel like I need to reframe this for her and for myself. This isn't just her being difficult, or having delayed skills development, but perhaps it is a real learning disability?

 

Any thoughts about what to do next? I have no idea what kind of specialists are out there and what the pros and cons are of working with different types of professionals.

 

Let me add that I am fairly comfortable with her not being a math whiz. I do not believe that all people need to learn the high level of math that is taught through to high school. I feel it comes at the expense of kids doing the things that they really excel at and love. However, she does need to know the basics, and I am committed to her developing a fundamental knowledge of math. I also worry about the eventual game we will have to play of standardized testing, SATs, and math requirements for college (assuming that is her eventual path -- but perhaps it will not be). At this point, I just cannot see it for her. She is really, truly struggling.

 

I would love to hear thoughts from those that have been through this already. I thank you for your time!

[wapiti]

AFAIK you would be looking for an ed psych or neuropsych for an eval for LDs. I would also consider whether there could be an issue with visual memory or other random vision issue (even though obviously she reads well). Visual memory can be improved. FWIW, I do think an eval makes sense for an 8 y.o. with such a disparity in skills - I would look for a psych experienced with 2e kids.

 

Take heart though - the SATs are a long way away - sometimes kids who struggle with elementary arithmetic turn out to be great with higher-level math concepts that they don't encounter until much later.

 

I would be sure to use manipulatives along with MM. There are suggestions in the notes at the beginning of chapters.

[Heathermomster]

My favorite go to book is How the Brain Learns Mathematics by Sousa.

[AMJ]

First, sorry for the rambling paragraph, but I'm having browser problems and can't type in carriage returns to separate paragraphs in my posts now. Please pretend you are editing and "read" in your own paragraph breaks. Your DD sounds a lot like my DD (now 11) where math is concerned. I strongly recommend a professional eval -- ask them to test for dyscalculia, but let them check for other stuff as well. As it turns out, my DD11 did NOT have dyscalculia, though she showed many classic signs of it. She is ADD (primarily inattentive), has dysgraphia, slow processing speed, and has had vision therapy and sensory integration therapy in the past. She also struggles with MANY environmental/seasonal allergies, which also affect her ability to perform to her true abilities in the classroom (in private school now, but switching to homeschool after the end of this school year). The neuropsych told me that if DD11 had dyscalculia it would have shown up independently in the testing, but it did not -- the math problems disappeared each time they accounted for other things. Since my DD11 is already in 5th grade I looked for math curricula that will go farther than MM (though had I started homeschooling when they were younger MM would probably have been my choice), and the two I'm looking at now are Teaching Textbooks (both DDs liked the samples I had them try online) and Math U See. Their school uses Saxon math and I like it fine, but I have concerns about whether they will get enough geometry by the time they need to take their PSATs, and both DDs are a little tired of all of the math homework they bring home. I figured I'd switch math programs when we start homeschool to see if we can freshen things up and release some doldrums. Good luck with your DD! I bet she'll prove to be great on conceptual math. My DH also struggled with math fact memorization and slow calculating when he was a boy, and he went on to double-major in Math and Mechanical Engineering in college. He's chomping at the bit, waiting for an opportunity to teach a kid the fun of calculus! He advises patience on math fact memorization -- it will come with time as she works math (it did for him and it is for our DD11), so keep up with the math concepts to keep her interest up. One accommodation our neuropsych recommended (which I do at home for homework) is to let DD11 have a math fact cheat sheet to look up the basic facts she hasn't yet memorized -- this allows her to keep working on her higher math concepts, which she gets so readily.

[wapiti]

AMJ, I had the same trouble with paragraph breaks. I un-did the latest Windows updates to my computer (via System Restore) and that fixed it for the meantime. I don't know what will happen when the Windows updates come back around automatically...

[SarahW]

It sounds like dyscalculia.

 

My husband has dyscalculia, and his main issue is with organizing the sequences of numbers. Like, I was trying to teach him how to tip, and my method is to just move the decimal to the left once and then multiply by two. Try as I might, I could not get him to understand what moving the decimal meant, or what it accomplished.

 

He learned to deal with life by just memorizing math tables, but his LD was diagnosed very late. He was initially diagnosed as just being stupid. That was over 30 years ago, so hopefully you won't run into the same thing.

 

Have you tried a program that uses a lot of manipulatives? My husband also has major issues with mental math (which is a bit "odd," because when he was tested his abstract thinking skills were really high).

 

I don't know anything in particular about testing. You could start by calling your school district or asking your family doctor. They may be able to give a referral.

[PrincessAriel]

My ds was diagnosed through a neuropsych eval. I would have to go back and look up what the tests actually were. He does use a multiplication chart regularly. He has so far gotten farther in math than they predicted he would (they said wouldn't go past 3rd grade, he is almost finished with 5th).

[rochellek]

Thank you so much for all the thoughtful responses. So much to think about. Can anyone succinctly tell me the difference between a neuropsychologist and an educational psychologist? For what it is worth, my DD has had other delays, predominantly with gross skills. In a weird "only her mom would know" kind of way, I believe there is a connection. I'm a little tentative about calling the school district, as I hate to get them involved and on the record with anything. I don't want to be accountable to them. But, I know some homeschooling mothers who have 2e kids (I don't even fully know what 2e means, other than learning disabilities) and I may start with them since they have been down this path.

 

SarahW: my DD hates manipulatives. She feels like I'm trying to trick her to do math, and she doesn't want to deal with counting all the little pieces. It just doesn't compute for her.

 

I'm going to have a bit of push back from my husband for having a psych analysis. He feels like I'm always trying to label her with something. He feels comfortable with just letting her be herself and growing into her skills when she is ready. I totally appreciate that (especially since a lot of husbands would just say to put her in school), but I also feel like it is the lazy way out. Ultimately, I'm responsible for the homeschooling and the mothering, and I really feel like an evaluation will be beneficial.

 

Just one more question... how does one explain to their child that they are having an evaluation? Very curious as to how folks have handled that.

 

Grateful for this forum!

[Julie of KY]

In response to you husband being resistant... I found it very helpful to have my kids tested by an educational psychologist. I wasn't looking for labels, but it really helped me understand HOW my kids brains worked, and therefore I am better able to teach them. I understand WHY they struggle and have better been able to accomodate.

[wapiti]

2e = twice-exceptional, gifted with learning disabilities

 

When my kids were being tested, I just told them we were seeing "the Learning Lady", who finds out how kids learn best.

[Heathermomster]

DS was diagnosed by a neuropsychologist. The 2E gifted label is based upon huge testing score disparities associated with WISC-IV and other testing. To clarify, not all children with dyslexia, dyscalculia, or other learning disabilities are 2E.

 

The dyscalculia diagnosis is very important when aiming for accommodations like extended test taking time in college. A diagnosis enables one to better understand and teach to your student too.

 

Generally speaking, public school systems are woefully prepared to deal with children and math disability. Look at books by David Sousa, Ronit Bird, and Kathy Richardson. If you are interested in research, Dr. Brian Butterworth is a prominent dyscalculia researcher from Great Britain.

[geodob]

You wrote: 'my DD has had other delays, predominantly with gross skills.'

Dyscalculia isn't just a difficulty with learning math, but a disorder that effects the ability to 'concieve' of numbers.

But numbers are just words and symbols that we use to represent different sized quantities.

So that a child first concieves of different sized quantities, and then learns to represent them with numbers.

Where we concieve of different sized quantities with Spacial thinking.

But with Dyscalculia, it is actually an underlying disorder with Spacial thinking, which effects the ability to concieve of different quantities.

So that they have nothing to associate numbers with?

Which comes back to your DD's delay with gross skills, where she no doubt has some Spacial difficulties?

Of particular interest, is her bi-lateral (left-right) coordination?

As this left-right coordination is fundamental to concieving of numbers.

Where it uses these opposing sides to spacially locate a beginning and an end point.

[rochellek]

back to the OP , the nice thing about homeschooling is it does give you a little leeway in the wait and see department but that being said I wish i had not waited so long...I knew she was struggling but being the oldest I chalked it up to her not being mathy and a learning curve on my part in learning to teach math...It was when ds blew past her in math skills although he is three years younger I realized it was time to get tested.

 

 

 

Well, that's exactly it!!! I mean, exactly! I've just chalked this up to my inexperience, her stubbornness and her just not being math-oriented. But her little brother is 3 years and 4 months younger (he just turned 5) and is way ahead of her! It is such a sigh of relief that he is understanding math so easily. Working with her can be exhausting, and it just feels good to be around a kid that "gets" it easily. But of course I want to meet her needs and hope that a diagnosis or at least an understanding of her learning style can help us both. I definitely need to move forward with an evaluation.

 

I am so grateful to everyone for their replies. For one, it has helped me see that a diagnosis of a LD is an asset, and not a liability. I hate the notion of labeling her with any kind of LD. But the thought of her having extra time to take the required state standardized tests in a few years, or later on in college -- that is such a relief! I've been dreading the notion of her taking any kind of standardized test! There is no way she would have the stamina for it. And the idea of knowing how she learns best -- from a professional -- is really exciting. It's been hard to admit that I don't always know everything that is best for my kids.

 

I am still interested in the feedback of others, if there are any other potential posters! Thanks again to all!