AP Course or Community College in High School

[momof2cm]

Our daughter is going into tenth grade in the fall. She is planning to take AP Biology and/or AP Chemistry. My friend told me that taking community college classes has more advantages.

 

What is your opinion? What are the advantages of taking AP? What are the advantages of community college in high school?

 

Thanks!

Karine

[Miss Marple]

There are pros and cons to both. If you click on the top sticky thread "Online Classes, etc." there is a lot of information there which may help you. This thread http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/449682-dartmouth-no-longer-accepts-ap-ib/ is a thread on a recent article and it generated some information that you might find helpful. Mostly it depends on which college/university your student will be attending in the future as well as the quality of the community college she would attend.

 

FWIW, dual enrollment credit was the best option for my sons. I didn't feel I could provide an adequate AP level courses myself so I opted to send them to our local 4 year regional university. The university they are attending after graduation acccepts dual enrollment credits easily.

[Jane Elliot]

One disadvantage of the AP is that a year's worth of learning comes down to a one hour test. What if the kid is sick? What if the school changes the test, thus flunking your kid? (happened to us). Also, AP doesn't give you a prof to write recommendation letters. Many colleges like to see dual enrollment because it shows that the kid can function in a classroom environment. We did one AP; never again. Our local school is a four year (they now call themselves a university, though they really aren't). I'd probably be less enamoured of dual enrollment if we were dealing O*** Junior College...

 

Margaret, what do you mean when you say the school changed the test? How does that happen?

[Nscribe]

Because we really are not focused on reducing the cost or time required to obtain a BA or BS in college, we are coming at the AP vs CC question with different criteria than someone who is seeking to gain college credit while in high school. For us, it is a hoop to jump through to provide some outside validation of the overall rigor/quality of our experience and perhaps for the experience itself.

 

Dd will likely wind up with a couple of CC classes in her Junior and Senior year, and a few AP's along the way. I would not want her at the CC before that age range, so AP serves the purpose for grades 10/11 and she has expressed some interest in a couple for grade 12.

 

I have come to the conclusion over this year that I am not going to try to validate each and every class in high school. Hopefully a combination of a few well chosen experiences will give admissions a general sense of what we tried to accomplish.

 

There are some great teachers with great classes at some CC's (ones near major colleges/universities sometimes have the same folks teaching for extra money). The AP exams for some of the subject areas are pretty fair about testing what would be a reasonably rigorous course in the subject area. College itself is a varied experience. Some classes are similar to the AP experience with everything riding on a final exam. Some are more like a CC experience with the ability to show up regularly, meet incremental expectations and work well with a particular instructor/class over time. We really are planning to take each course and decide what the best option available to us for it will be and hopefully emerge with a varied overall set of experiences to display to an admissions reviewer.

[regentrude]

We have chose not to go the AP route, but instead do dual enrollment (not at community college, but at a four year university) for reasons similar to what Margaret in CO mentioned: classroom course with fellow students and live instructor; outcome does not depend on performance in one single test (important for students who do not test well); getting to know professor well enough to have an outside source of letter of recommendation... plus many more advantages of being involved in a live community of learners vs studying for an AP test at home/via online class.

[regentrude]

Some classes are similar to the AP experience with everything riding on a final exam.

 

I just want to comment on this: even if the course grade is basically determined by the final exam, the student can earn different letter grades. Let's say the student earns a B in a college course - this B stays on the transcript, and credit is awarded. If the student had taken the AP course and only gotten a 4, he might not receive any credit for his efforts if the school he will attend gives credit only for a 5.

 

So, when deciding, it is essential to know why you want to do AP/CC in the first place: for rigorous coursework, for validation, or to earn college credit. the decision will depend on those reasons.

[Gwen in VA]

In our family, which route we took depended on the kid.

 

We didn't make the decision based on what would yield the most college credit but rather what was best educationally for the kid.

 

Our older two did almost exclusively AP. They were super-strong academic kids who didn't mind the intensity of their AP classes. They tested well and enjoyed the challenge of studying for the AP exam. The college they went to didn't accept any CC credits but did accept AP, so that worked out well. The AP credits allowed one to double major with a minor and the other to triple major, all within four years. We are VERY thankful for AP, since those credits allowed them to follow their dreams in college instead of getting bogged down in gen ed requirements.

 

My next did do two AP's, but he didn't enjoy the intensity of the AP classes. He liked learning from a "real" prof, and he enjoyed interacting with the "real" students. He could not see the point in putting in 1-2 hours a day for an AP class when he could put in almost no time and get an A in a CC class. He is a strong student, but academics are not his focus, so CC classes were a great option for him.

 

Dd#2 is taking a mix of AP's and CC classes. The AP's are MUCH MUCH MUCH more rigorous and are doing a great job giving her a strong academic background. The CC classes are a joke (even though our CC is highly regarded.....) so they are a painless way of getting A's She is going into music, and if she were taking all AP's instead of a mixture she wouldn't be able to put in the hours practicing that she wants to.

 

BTW, the online teachers for the AP classes usually do write recommendations. The teachers work hard to get to know the students and have enough high-quality work that their recommendations have been strong and highly personalized. (Three of the online teachers voluntarily sent a copy of their rec to the student, which is how I know what they were like.) The CC classes have required so little written work in the form of essays, etc., that I am reluctant to use the profs for recommendations -- these teachers don't know what level of work my kids are capable of!

[Candid]

It also depends on the teacher of the course whether AP or CC. That can result in better scores and grades but it can also result in intangibles like an increased interest in a subject or the reverse dislike of a subject. I'd pick a good teacher over almost all other variables.

[eclecticschooler]

I don't know if you are talking about in person AP classes or online ones. If online AP classes, then hands down I would choose face to face community classes.

 

They have been invaluable to my dd's education. She is interviewing with top tier colleges and they are all saying that her having f2f courses at the community college level is a great advantage to her application.

[Nscribe]

One area that came to mind where CC can be more certain is with in state colleges or universities that have standing agreements with the CC's. For someone looking for credits or even a more certain admissions this can be a big factor. Some states, or some schools within a given state have these sorts of agreements.

 

Some states pay the tuition for high schoolers in CC (Dual Enrollment) and that really can also be a factor for some.

[Jane Elliot]

There simply is no way that my dd missed almost every question on the Bio AP exam, however, this is what came back on her score. This is the same ps district who shorted the kids on their PSAT testing time and stole one dd's PSAT results--they changed the school code. They tried to do it with a different dd and was caught. They showed no remorse, just thought it was funny. I am SO glad that for the ACT/SAT my kids go to the college and we don't have to deal with the ps at all.

 

 

I see. Thank you for explaining. I am so sorry that happened to you. DS had his PSAT cut short, too, and it cost him dearly, but it was the school's negligence/stupidity/indifference (whatever). Your situation was clearly much worse than that. How truly awful!

[momof2cm]

Thank you very much for your replies.

 

We have both 'live' AP courses and Community College available.

 

After reading all the feedback, and considering dd will be a young 15 yo, I am thinking a combination of the two will be favorable. Meaning, CC in 11th and 12th grade and stick with AP for now.

 

Karine

[momof2cm]

I forgot te mention that AP or CC courses will be used to make dd's high school education rigorous, not per se to graduate earlier.

[creekland]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is for kids who might want to head to med school after undergrad. Currently, many med schools do NOT like to see pre-req courses taken at community college, so taking Bio or Chem there wouldn't be to your advantage. Taking them as AP courses will not affect them, though they will likely still want to repeat the intro course at their 4 year school.

 

Also note, for the pre-med student, ALL cc courses will count toward their GPA and math/science courses count toward their Science GPA regardless of whether they accept those credits or not at the undergrad level.

 

My pre-med guy did a mix of cc and AP courses. Like most have reported, the AP were definitely more rigorous - no comparison at all. The cc were useful for classroom experience and letters of recommendations. Middle son's college accepted his AP credits, but not the cc. That was fine with us because we did neither for college credit. We did them all for high school credit. Nonetheless, it's good that my guy got all As at the cc as those grades do count when/if he applies to med school later on.

 

Incidentally, youngest son took the cc Bio class this past fall and sat in on middle son's freshman Bio class at his Top 30 U. He told us there was no comparison to the classes at all. The same topic was in both, but the cc class barely skimmed the topic whereas the Top 30 U went into great depth. At least when going to a Top 30 U, there is a difference in the courses. At a less selective U there might not be. Those might be the same schools that accept credit for cc classes (if they are the same, why not?).

[SarahW]

I did dual enrollment, so just to share my own experiences....

 

I started off in 10th grade at the very small extension of the local CC. I thought the profs were pretty good, except for the Sociology prof who rambled on about "social constructs" and only used the pre-packaged tests that went with the textbook. Easy A, that one. I knew what college I wanted to go to, so I picked classes that met Gen Ed requirements. But, considering that I was 15, some things were a bit of a shock, like the English class where we read The Bluest Eye. I had a very sheltered homeschool life, so I was like.....uhhhhhhh.....whaaaa???? with that one, lol.

 

The next year I went to a local university to have more course offerings. I had to take their ACT to get in, but that wasn't too much trouble. Though they had some weird rules, like that we could only take 14 credits. I ended up in the office of Dean of the University to get an exception (the way I had to do it, I had to enroll in my public high school to do dual enrollment, so I had to meet ps graduation requirements, and also all the college Gen Ed classes I wanted to do).

 

The problem with the whole thing was that we used it as a cheap way to do hs and also knock off two years of college, and that part worked out fine. But I wasn't really prepared to do as well in the classes as I would have if I had actually done them in college the second time around, kwim? So when I applied to graduate schools I had all these weird transcripts from a CC with dodgey grades following me around (I have to submit them, since I used them to get transfer credit for my BA). Do Graduate admissions people take into account the fact that I was 15 when I nearly bombed a course in French taught by DL from an absolutely terrible prof? Not really.

 

So I guess my advice is - only do dual enrollment for courses where your kid has a good background in the subject and is pretty certain that they can get an A or A-. Don't be afraid to drop a class which looks like it might be over your kid's head. This is absolutely vital if your kid is thinking about going into a field where graduate work might be in their future.

[Kareni]

My daughter did four AP courses but she also took some classes at the local community college. Doing both worked well for her. Three of her AP courses were out of the home classes offered at a local homeschooling center; all were rigorous classes and she learned a great deal. Her fourth AP course she took online through PA Homeschoolers; it too was a great class. At the local community college, she took Geology, Environmental Science, College Algebra and Trig, three different composition classes, three different literature classes, Art History, and Introduction to Drawing. While some of these classes (such as Environmental Science) have an equivalent AP course, others (such as Geology) do not.

 

Like you, momof2cm, we were looking for rigorous courses for my daughter but also classes that matched her interests. Her AP studies in Latin and her three community college courses in Geology met those criteria. Today she is a college senior majoring in Latin and minoring in Geology.

 

Regards,

Kareni