If you're using WWS, what are you doing for history?

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

This may have already been discussed, but I spent some time searching and wasn't coming up with the right threads. So feel free to just direct to me already-existing discussions!

 

I just reworked our schedule to include the WTM logic-stage history assignments (per WTM 3rd ed.), but now I think my DD10 is ready for WWS1, so I'm thinking that might make life easier for both of us. However, doing both WWS1 in addition to the history work will be too much for her, so something needs to change. If you're doing WWS1, have you dropped all the history requirements outside of reading? Which exercises have you kept and which have you dropped in favor of WWS? Can you talk to me about how implementing WWS has changed the rest if what you do?

 

:lurk5:

 

Thank you! I'm just beginning my foray into the real heavy-lifting of logic stage work. I'm still pretty intimidated, but my DD's abilities are growing rapidly, so I guess mine need to as well :willy_nilly:

[Chrysalis Academy]

For the first half of this year (5th grade), I had dd just do reading and a timeline for history, no writing (she does geography/mapwork on another day during history time). I felt that WWS was plenty of writing.

 

Now, though, I am adding history writing back in. She is right at the end of SOTW3, about to start SOTW4. Two or three days a week, I am having her read and outline one section of the SOTW chapter. This is in addition to her official writing lesson writing. I felt that she was ready to ramp it up now, and do more writing. It's also the case that as you get further into WWS, they don't write a lot every single day - they may have 1 outline, one "planning day" which doesn't involve a ton of writing, one heavy writing day (which we may spread over two days if necessary, it isn't always) and then one "style" day that is also light on writing. So I have her do the history writing on days when her WWS writing is light.

 

We're also taking some weeks here and there where we are "off" of WWS, and where she does another writing assignment. She is still doing history writing those weeks.

 

I have zero regrets about dropping the writing down to WWS only at the beginning. WWS is intense, and the adjustment to reading the book for yourself, getting and following the directions with much less mom-mediation was definitely a transition with a steep learning curve. But I felt that she is ready for more, now, and have been pleased by her response to adding the history writing back in. Now that she is so confident about outlining (thanks to WWS) it is a skill she can easily apply to her history. Which is kind of how it was supposed to work, yes??

[Alte Veste Academy]

This is exactly why I am so very disappointed that we don't have a comprehensive IG for WWS similar to the one available for WWE. If I want my kids to have a WTM education as I originally imagined it, it means I want them writing across the curriculum. Even SWB says that is ideal. I don't want to adjust history down; I want to incorporate it in.

 

ETA: Sorry. Just a vent. I know this is not helpful. I will say that IEW lets us write across the curriculum though. Also, I may well try to adapt the WWS workbooks, gleaning what I can in the way of procedural instruction, adjusting for us to use with our history, science, etc.

[TarynB]

I don't know if this will help, but I had copied the following SWB instructions into my advice/tips notebook quite a while ago. I can't find a link to the exact source now, but my notes say her advice is if you're using WWS, you should expect to add only the following as writing across the curriculum: "If using WWS, just add one outline (history or science), one narration (history or science) and one literary analysis per week."

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

This is exactly why I am so very disappointed that we don't have a comprehensive IG for WWS similar to the one available for WWE. If I want my kids to have a WTM education as I originally imagined it, it means I want them writing across the curriculum. Even SWB says that is ideal. I don't want to adjust history down; I want to incorporate it in.

 

ETA: Sorry. Just a vent. I know this is not helpful. I will say that IEW lets us write across the curriculum though. Also, I may well try to adapt the WWS workbooks, gleaning what I can in the way of procedural instruction, adjusting for us to use with our history, science, etc.

 

 

From what I was able to glean from the huge WWS info thread, the idea of WWS is to do pretty much what Chrysalis said: Start WWS so the child can gain the skills, then implement those skills across the curriculum. It seems to me that Susan was saying that WWS would, for the most part, replace the WTM-outlined activities in history and science. However, you'd still have your student do at least one comprehension/analysis exercise in either science or history once a week, in addition to their WWS work. So, for example, you'd have your student do a history outline in week 1, then a science outline in week 2, then a narrative summary for a history reading in week 3, then a narrative summary for a science reading in week 4, and so on.

 

At least, this is how I understood it. Someone can (please!) correct me if I'm wrong. But I agree that a specific guide would be really helpful. It's very hard for me to put the puzzle pieces together to implement a curriculum efficiently. I need a lot more handholding than that. I keep trying to be less dependent on materials and explicit instructions, but...here I am anyway *sigh*

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I don't know if this will help, but I had copied the following SWB instructions into my advice/tips notebook quite a while ago. I can't find a link to the exact source now, but my notes say that her advice is that if you're using WWS, you should expect to add only the following as writing across the curriculum: "If using WWS, just add one outline (history or science), one narration (history or science) and one literary analysis per week."

 

 

Oh, thank you. That's more than I thought was expected. I'll have to ramp up to that, I think. DD10 might implode if I spring that much writing on her all at once!

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I have zero regrets about dropping the writing down to WWS only at the beginning. WWS is intense, and the adjustment to reading the book for yourself, getting and following the directions with much less mom-mediation was definitely a transition with a steep learning curve. But I felt that she is ready for more, now, and have been pleased by her response to adding the history writing back in. Now that she is so confident about outlining (thanks to WWS) it is a skill she can easily apply to her history. Which is kind of how it was supposed to work, yes??

 

 

Thank you for that! It's somewhat along the lines of what I was thinking myself, but I tend to be on the more lenient side, so some outside perspective is very helpful.

[TarynB]

 

Oh, thank you. That's more than I thought was expected. I'll have to ramp up to that, I think. DD10 might implode if I spring that much writing on her all at once!

 

 

You're welcome. And I agree! It will definitely be a ramping up process for us too.

[Dolphin]

We have changed. WWS is teaching all about writing, and his writing is improving so much I am leaving it at that. We are reading so much more with history. When I removed the writing from it, we are going so much more in depth in his favorite areas. I figure we all have parts of history we like more than other parts. So right now he is reading all 4 story of the world books in order. He is telling me what he wants to learn more about. Then we are going to go through history again. Chronologically, but only studying the parts he is most interested in, and doing them in depth. Reading tons, and lots of discussions.

[lewelma]

We have used WWS1 and are beta testing WWS2. There is NO WAY that my ds could do more writing than WWS provides. However, I am finding that in level 2 he is starting to want to swap out topics, which was not possible with level 1. So last week, he had no interest in writing about bamboo, so instead he wrote about cellular automatons (he is a math kid!). Basically, changing topics means that he has to do about 1 hour more work per week to find resources on the internet to read, instead of reading the selections that SWB has chosen. We are using the rest of level 2 as written -- the types of essays, the explanatory material, the examples, the teacher's manual, the assessment, the copia. All this material is just excellent (in fact I like WWS2 better than level 1) The only adjustment we are making is that I am letting him choose the topic he wants to write about. So in your situation, when SWB does 3 weeks of history writing, write about the history you are studying.

 

I did NOT find that this method worked for WWS1 because the writing approach was too new and too difficult. So we abandoned writing across the curriculum for 1 year, and are now back into it.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Alte Veste Academy]

From what I was able to glean from the huge WWS info thread, the idea of WWS is to do pretty much what Chrysalis said: Start WWS so the child can gain the skills, then implement those skills across the curriculum. It seems to me that Susan was saying that WWS would, for the most part, replace the WTM-outlined activities in history and science. However, you'd still have your student do at least one comprehension/analysis exercise in either science or history once a week, in addition to their WWS work. So, for example, you'd have your student do a history outline in week 1, then a science outline in week 2, then a narrative summary for a history reading in week 3, then a narrative summary for a science reading in week 4, and so on.

 

At least, this is how I understood it. Someone can (please!) correct me if I'm wrong. But I agree that a specific guide would be really helpful. It's very hard for me to put the puzzle pieces together to implement a curriculum efficiently. I need a lot more handholding than that. I keep trying to be less dependent on materials and explicit instructions, but...here I am anyway *sigh*

 

Yes, I am just being a big baby. :lol: I just wanted to gain the skills across the curriculum in the first place, not learn with separate material, then apply. Some good points have been made in this thread though. I particularly like Northwest Mama's point about separating writing enabling a changing tempo with history.

 

We have used WWS1 and are beta testing WWS2. There is NO WAY that my ds could do more writing than WWS provides. However, I am finding that in level 2 he is starting to want to swap out topics, which was not possible with level 1. So last week, he had no interest in writing about bamboo, so instead he wrote about cellular automatons (he is a math kid!). Basically, changing topics means that he has to do about 1 hour more work per week to find resources on the internet to read, instead of reading the selections that SWB has chosen. We are using the rest of level 2 as written -- the types of essays, the explanatory material, the examples, the teacher's manual, the assessment, the copia. All this material is just excellent (in fact I like WWS2 better than level 1) The only adjustment we are making is that I am letting him choose the topic he wants to write about. So in your situation, when SWB does 3 weeks of history writing, write about the history you are studying.

 

I did NOT find that this method worked for WWS1 because the writing approach was too new and too difficult. So we abandoned writing across the curriculum for 1 year, and are now back into it.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

Very good to know this about WWS2. Thanks!

[Chrysalis Academy]

I agree with Ruth about WWS being plenty of writing, and just in case I wasn't being perfectly clear - we have added back in history writing in large part because a) we are taking some alternate weeks off from WWS to do other kinds of writing assignments across the curriculum, using what we've learned so far in WWS, and b. not every day in WWS is a "heavy" writing day, and c) after 22 weeks, WWS is actually coming easier than it was at first. Oh, and d) DD is maturing as a writer and logic stage student, so I know that I can ask more of her now than I could last August. Remember that the logic stage is the beginning of teaching in a different way, it's not a switch you suddenly flip and ask for a lot more of your student in every subject. Ramp it up slowly, first in their strongest subjects, adding in heavier requirements in their less strong subjects over time, as they have success. It's a journey, right?

[Penguin]

This is exactly why I am so very disappointed that we don't have a comprehensive IG for WWS similar to the one available for WWE. If I want my kids to have a WTM education as I originally imagined it, it means I want them writing across the curriculum. Even SWB says that is ideal. I don't want to adjust history down; I want to incorporate it in.

 

 

I agree. I don't want DS to learn those during "writing tme" and then apply them during "history time." I want him to learn them with the history that we are reading.

 

I often think of ditching WWS solely for this reason. Instead, I have swapped out the readings and the topics to suit our studies. Is it always a perfect fit? Of course not. But I don't think that DS has really missed out on the much of the program.

 

I will add that I am very comfortable teaching writing and that my DS is a natural writer. Through discussion, we can get through SWB's ideas much, much quicker than he could get through them following all of the directions in the book. I don't use WWS to teach my son how to follow directions; he learns that skill plenty of other places.

 

Echoing what Ruth said, it does take him a bit longer to get through the compositions. He has to do his own reasearch. But I think it probably balances out. WWS takes waayyy less time if you use passages that you have already read!

[texasmama]

We have changed. WWS is teaching all about writing, and his writing is improving so much I am leaving it at that. We are reading so much more with history. When I removed the writing from it, we are going so much more in depth in his favorite areas. I figure we all have parts of history we like more than other parts. So right now he is reading all 4 story of the world books in order. He is telling me what he wants to learn more about. Then we are going to go through history again. Chronologically, but only studying the parts he is most interested in, and doing them in depth. Reading tons, and lots of discussions.

 

This is similar to what history and writing looks like with my oldest son, who is using WWS.

[lewelma]

This is exactly why I am so very disappointed that we don't have a comprehensive IG for WWS similar to the one available for WWE.

 

Are you beta testing WWS2? If not, I will tell you that it would be very hard to find examples of the different types of writing on your own. What I like about WWS 2 is that she explains the type of paragraph/essay and then shows the student repeated examples. Those examples are key to my ds, and I really really don't see how you could just open a book or two and find them.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Alte Veste Academy]

Are you beta testing WWS2? If not, I will tell you that it would be very hard to find examples of the different types of writing on your own. What I like about WWS 2 is that she explains the type of paragraph/essay and then shows the student repeated examples. Those examples are key to my ds, and I really really don't see how you could just open a book or two and find them.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

No, I am not, and I believe you. However, my complaint isn't that adapting the WWS workbooks would be difficult, and I am happy they are available to those who need/want them. My basic complaint is more that SWB has said that writing across the curriculum is ideal, put out a wonderful guide to help homeschoolers use her techniques for WWE, but then did not for WWS. I understand that it would be challenging to take WWS, laid out so precisely as it is now, and work backwards to find cross-curricular matches. However, if we were given a basic outline of skills/genres to cover along with a few good examples of what that would look like, we could build on that. This is precisely what she did with the WWE1-4 guide. In that volume, she provides example lessons for the first week of each new step-up in material and then gives instructions for how to proceed with your own material. I am just saying I prefer that. In fact, I just (re)ordered a copy of the 1st edition WTM precisely to see if I could get more specific guidelines for writing than a curriculum recommendation for WWS.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I am finding that in level 2 he is starting to want to swap out topics, which was not possible with level 1. So last week, he had no interest in writing about bamboo, so instead he wrote about cellular automatons (he is a math kid!). Basically, changing topics means that he has to do about 1 hour more work per week to find resources on the internet to read, instead of reading the selections that SWB has chosen. We are using the rest of level 2 as written -- the types of essays, the explanatory material, the examples, the teacher's manual, the assessment, the copia. All this material is just excellent (in fact I like WWS2 better than level 1) The only adjustment we are making is that I am letting him choose the topic he wants to write about. So in your situation, when SWB does 3 weeks of history writing, write about the history you are studying.

 

I did NOT find that this method worked for WWS1 because the writing approach was too new and too difficult. So we abandoned writing across the curriculum for 1 year, and are now back into it.

 

Are you beta testing WWS2? If not, I will tell you that it would be very hard to find examples of the different types of writing on your own. What I like about WWS 2 is that she explains the type of paragraph/essay and then shows the student repeated examples. Those examples are key to my ds, and I really really don't see how you could just open a book or two and find them.

 

OK, so now I am confused. You say you have adapted WWS2 but that it would be difficult to do? Or just difficult to find examples? Again, she did lay out lots of examples in the WWE1-4 book, and I figured she would do the same if she wrote one comprehensive IG for WWS1-4. (Heck, I would even be willing to buy four good IG's, one for each year, as I understand that they would necessarily become more complex.) I agree that examples are essential. However, you are saying that your DS is using those as a springboard, yes? Because that is what I am talking about too.

[lewelma]

We adapt everything. I just can't help it. In level 2, SWB is working through some of the different invention topics like definition and cause/effect. We are studying her descriptions and examples and following her guidelines for essays, but then just picking a different topic. For the definition essay, she spends 3 weeks working on the 3 different parts of a "definition" and chooses the topic and provides the material for an essay each week. But then the 4th week you pick your own topic and do all three parts in one essay. For us, we do our own topics for all 4 weeks. My ds is willing to do the research to find articles he can use so that he can write about what he wants to write about.

 

What I thought you were looking for was the guidelines for the WWS 4-year program without the examples, which really would not be overwhelmingly useful as the examples are key and really hard to find on your own. I don't own the WWE IG (only the workbooks), but I thought it showed you how to find your own examples for each step using the history and science material you were studying. Sorry for the confusion. I think that WWE level examples would be easy to find whereas WWS level examples would not be. So for WWS2 we are reading her examples but then choosing our own topic to write about. I am sure that is clear as mud.

 

You could also have your student start reading Rhetoric in the Classical Tradition by Horner and begin a basic rhetoric class. Or you could read it and teach her directly. 8filltheheart put me on to this book, and it is WAY easier to read and implement than Corbett's Rhetoric in the Classical for the Modern Student. I'm not saying it is easy, but definitely easier than Corbett. It does cover 2/3rds of the material the SWB is going over in WWS, (not the literary analysis).

 

I agree with you about the ideal and plan to teach it that way for my younger. By then I will have learned what to do, and also be working with my language-loving son who is much less into structure and directions that a curriculum provides.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Hedgehogs4]

I didn't read all of the replies, but I am doing WWS with my 11yo son, and TOG for history. TOG has its own writing program, but I don't like it. WWS is challenging and thorough, and TOG is pretty rigorous. Since I do want him to sometimes write in response to his history work and I don't want to overwhelm him, I only have him cover 1 week of WWS over two. Obviously it will take us 2 years to get through the course, but that is okay with me. We'll move on to the next book when we get through this one. Both are wonderful, and he enjoys both. His writing is soaring.

[Sleep-Deprived]

We have had a similar experience with Chrysalis Academy. The first 10 weeks of this year (5th grade) my son almost melted down at the mention of doing narrations or outlines of his history in addition to WWS-1. However an interesting shift happened around week 10. First, the outlines became VERY easy for him to do in both history and science. I started having him outline a section from SOTW that he was reading. (He has already worked through the whole SOTW series, but I have him read the chapter as review before reading the Kingfisher Encyclopedia section). Around week 14 the same thing happened with writing a summary from his outline. Now at week 20 he actually seems to ENJOY writing about history, and it seems to have become somewhat effortless. I am SO happy with the improvement...and attribute it to the stretching going on in WWS. He doesn't think twice about writing 150 words, and his writing is getting more and more interesting to read.