Anxiety on fairly easy things, but not on hard ones?

[Dmmetler]

DD8 dives right into LoF, ate the ACT practice test for lunch, and doesn't seem to get at all floored on contest math or challenging work in other areas. eIMACS? No problem. New and novel, she's willing to attack and doesn't seem to get upset about making mistakes. In that regard, she handles challenges well.

 

 

But, I have her also doing review on Mathletics. I think it's important, because she effectively jumped at least 2 grade levels in math, maybe more, in a very, very brief span of time last year, and I want her to make sure she's fluent on those skills. And what I'm noticing is that every single time she gets a problem set that's a type she's done before, but isn't 100% sure of, she panics. She's absolutely convinced that she's going to get them wrong, that she doesn't know. She'll play the little instructional video again and again, as far as I can tell, simply tabbing through the slides as fast as she can, not paying attention to it. And she'll do the problem, correctly, but be scared to put it in, convinced that she's wrong. For every single problem in the set, invariably getting them ALL correct, all with tears streaming down her face, and giving every impression that she's being tortured.

 

I've let her go away and come back later, and it really seems like it's worse the next time if I don't make her push through then-she'll start panicking before she's even gone up the stairs and turned on the computer, just at the thought of doing that problem set. It's like if I make her do it, I'm the meanest parent in the world, but if I don't, she's convinced she really CAN'T do it. Going and looking it up on Khan academy, or in a math book like SM or LOF, is treated with the same sort of response well meaning adults get when they assume she can't do something because of her age-like I've insulted her intelligence. The fact that both her father and I regularly look things up that we don't remember fully doesn't seem to sink in.

 

I can't tell whether she's really out of control-whether being uncertain about something she feels she should already know really scares her that much, or whether she's manipulating me somehow. She recovers fast-like within about the time it takes her to walk downstairs-if she's allowed to leave the computer "to calm down" or if she finishes the problem set, which makes me skeptical that it's entirely real, since I know that her meltdowns when she was younger took her hours to recover from-but those tended to be due to just too much sensory input at once, and this is, as far as I can tell, all internal.

 

 

Heaven help me, I've found myself considering seriously sending her to the school across the street, simply because I have a feeling that emotional reactions over math that she doesn't remember right away how to do would not meet social approval-but I have this sinking suspicion that she'd hold it together there, and save the panic attacks for iXL, which is what the local district uses for homework, to "individualize" math.

[aly9712]

I would agree with the social pressures to hold it together. I noticed that right away with my dd8. She would completely fall apart at home over something so minor, even if she had just done like 1o in a row previously. However in public, she's be a bit fustrated yes, but she'd hold it together and work through it with a much more "perseverance" attitude. I asked her once why she behaved in a total melt down with me but not at school, and she told me- as sure as day- "I can't act like that at school, they'd think I was crazy". So, we outsource math to mathnasium during the summers for both our sanity. (She's also finishing up EPGY, which is where we still see some tantrums at home).

 

Don't know what support/advice to give except to encourage calming techniques (deep breaths, re-write your notes and talk me through them). Sometimes I have her pretend she's a teacher showing me how to do it and then it finally clicks where the (often careless) error is taking place.

[Barbara H]

Here's some ideas..... for some ids if they are intellectually engaged the brain is busy and it doesn't have as much time to entertain anxious thoughts. When the task is so easy, the brain keeps itself busy and working with anxiety. Particularly for kids who are spending a lot of time with really engaging and challenging work - when they go back to the easy stuff they can be bringing the same amount of brute brain force to those easy problems. It is like they are used to driving a Ferrari on a racetrack and all of the sudden they are driving that same Ferrari on a residential street. They are hepped up and ready for the challenge and it isn't there - so they start overthinking and questioning.

 

Not when she's already upset, but another time, I'm wondering if you've tried engaging her in planning over this. Talk about "overthinking" and what it is like when her brain is slowed down but still looking for work. I'd also think about helping her set up some little goals. Instead of focusing on how many problems she gets correct, see if she can be engaged in setting small goals for how long she can keep her cool - 2 problems? 5 minutes? Try to shift to give her brain the job of keeping her thinking about her performance in check. Any chance something like this might help?

[bakpak]

Also sounds like she's being a perfectionist (in addition to over thinking). She knows she's not expected to get the new stuff right immediately so doesn't sweat it, but feels like she should know the stuff she's already studied. Common problem with gifted kids. I'd straight up ask her if she thinks she's supposed to get it all right and why she thinks she's expected to remember everything perfectly. Talk about all the things you don't do/remember perfectly and explain why practice is important. And also talk about the bigger picture (imagine she's an adult). We adults are always complaining about how much we've forgotten over the years (i.e. undergrad classes), but the key is that even if we don't remember all the details, we learned the 'skills' to learn the details again easily if they become necessary, and acquired the building blocks for learning new concepts. For most of us, our brains aren't hardwired to remember an endless capacity of information. So maybe try discussing that type of thing and discuss the consequences of her missing some questions. What's the worst that can happen? It identifies areas where she needs to refresh...she's not expected to get everything perfectly. Also, make sure that you're not accidentally reenforcing the perfectionism - "You know this one! We studied it a few weeks ago!"

 

I write all this because I can go down this route myself and I've seen my DD already start to do the same thing a bit and I've realized it's not healthy. In all my cheering her on, I've sometimes unconsciously triggered her perfectionism. Now I try to keep more of the conversation on how hard she's working and pointing out my own mistakes and how I fixed them. Mistakes are okay - you can cite how long it took Franklin to make the light bulb or how Penicillin came from a mistake.

 

Sounds like she's honestly experiencing anxiety, not making it up. Maybe she needs a little break? I think talking to her about this stuff would make her feel better. Sounds like she's putting tremendous pressure on herself to perform well and letting her know that she doesn't HAVE to keep working at hyperspeed, she can take a complete math break for awhile (a week/month?) if she wants, might be all the reassurance she needs to happily get back on the horse and ease her anxiety. Just knowing she has the option to stop and take a breath might do wonders...

 

Good luck!!

[Dmmetler]

I think there are some good ideas here-I believe that she is overthinking and expecting perfection of herself. Part of the problem is that she's moved so fast in math that I'm not surprised she has trouble figuring out where to start at times.

 

I'm not sure she'd go for taking a break overall-she has a lot of competitions that she's registered to do and plans to do this Spring, but I might be able to suggest that she takes a break in review overall.

 

I'm wondering about Mathnasium myself and if it would be better to outsource the non-competition math to them? There's a groupon in effect for our area which makes it halfway reasonable, and it might be that she'd be more willing to look at the older stuff with someone else.

[lewelma]

I have definitely seen this trait in both of my boys. It is accentuated by doing math on the computer or for a "time". My younger was working on his speed drill and the computer kept a graph of his progress. He only wanted his time to go down so his anxiety kept rising. He refused to finish a test if he though that 1 of the problems that he did took a second too long, so that the graph might have a chance of going up. (the computer only recorded finished tests) So I told him to "break" the graph. After he purposely messed up one test and the graph had a huge dip, the anxiety stopped and he could just enjoy it. Strange, really strange. These types of kids just put so much pressure on themselves to be perfect. And I can talk until I am blue in the face about perfectionism, but it doesn't help. sigh.

 

Do you see the same behaviour when your dd does not work on the computer?

 

Ruth in NZ

[aly9712]

Mathnasium has worked for us. Even though dd8 attends a Montessori school and is able to do math based on her level, there is still a good benefit with the individual attention she gets there. I think it's more like a math club or conversation for her there. She is able to work through their mastery challenges and explore concepts without necessarily always having to demonstrate it using manipulatives as she does in school. She is also able to " hold it together" there versus at home. lastly, she's met a number of kids her age who also are there because they enjoy math and needed more. One of her friends there was even the national trimathlon winner for 4th grade. it's nice for her to see other kids her age/ability work through thir own frustrations.

[Dmmetler]

We had a better day-we talked through the overthinking and "Ferarri on the road" and the idea that you're not expected to remember everything you ever knew, and she was able to verbalize what worried her about a specific subsection so that we could come up with solutions in advance. In one case, it was that she was nervous about cardinal directions because she gets left and right confused (she's mixed dominant, and her dance teacher, especially, is often on her about starting on the wrong foot-she's right handed, but left footed) and had carried that over. I asked how she managed with maps, and her response was "I look at the compass rose", so I had her draw a compass rose and tape it to the monitor. Problem solved.

 

The other point of anxiety was divisibility rules-the problem set asked her to pick which of two children were correct (including both or neither) when they gave a problem and gave a reason using divisibility rules. DD was second guessing and overthinking on the divisibility rules because in some cases the wording wasn't the same as what she'd known previously. So, we reviewed the divisibility rules, and THEN she was able to see that in every case the divisibility rule was wrong, so was the child's math-that 182 wasn't divisible by 10, period, so it didn't matter what rule he was using, he was incorrect. After that, she became much more confident.

 

I plan to continue this-giving her the option to verbalize what the concern is, and review/compensate in advance, BEFORE she's faced with a problem she's unsure of. Hopefully, eventually she'll be able to do this more on her own, and gain the confidence to truse herself.

 

I also gave her the choice of putting in the answer to the problem herself, or having me do it. In both sets, she started out having me do it, and cringing, and by the end, was doing it regularly herself with little hesitation.

[bakpak]

Excellent problem solving! :thumbup:

[Dmmetler]

Today she got one wrong (a GCF problem) and had a total panic attack, so I told her we were going to practice getting them wrong. And I did. I sat there with her and put in 1 for every single answer until she stopped cringing each time she saw the red X pop up. It took probably a good 10 minutes of getting answers wrong before she realized that this was ALL that was going to happen. She got a red X. Big deal.

 

So, she then went back and did the gold bar again-no hesitation. There was one question she was unsure of, but worked through As she put it, "it's not like the red X is going to fly out of the computer and attack me!"-and seemed very proud of herself.

 

We'll see if this still holds Monday.

[Dmmetler]

Spoke too soon-total and complete thermonuclear meltdown over piano, where se never freaks out. I don't know how much more I can take.

[onaclairadeluna]

My son was this way at 8. I think it was one of those over excitability things. It was very difficult. You have my sympathies.

 

I can't for the life of me remember what I did. It was all a blur. Each year got a little better. I used to say that he was going to be an awesome teenager since he got all of the annoying stuff out of his system at 8. I knock on wood as I say this but, he really is turning out to be a great teenager and much of this is due to the stuff we had to work through at that age.

 

I sent him to mathpath when he was 13 and 14. The first year of camp was completely transformative for him. They really understand that type of kid and his maturity skyrocketed.

 

But 8? I was not feeling all that rosy about things when he was that age. It was two steps forward one step back. It took a really long time to figure things out.

[aly9712]

Spoke too soon-total and complete thermonuclear meltdown over piano, where se never freaks out. I don't know how much more I can take.

 

 

 

One day/activity at a time....you win some,you lose some :/

[bakpak]

Glad you worked through the anxiety - it's probably going to take quite a bit of repetition for her to get over the bad habit of wanting to be perfect on every answer. But sorry about the piano!! Think it's an afternoon thing? Sounds like it was a stressful morning for her even though you worked through it. Maybe the piano was just the last straw? How about piano earlier in the morning and an easier subject in afternoon?

 

Sounds like you AND she need a bit of a schooling break. So maybe you're on to something with the Mathnasium. At least you could give it a try and see how it fit. Even a month of outsourcing that part might help you both relieve the extra stress and get you back on track. Did you guys take a break over the holidays?

[Barbara H]

It is a really tough age. You are doing the right stuff, keep plugging along and it will get better. I'd encourage you to try to set very little goals. Can she go for five minutes during math without crying - hooray she did it - everybody get up and dance. Small progress again and again will get her there.