CLE and Pacifism question...

[Kisa in CA]

I am considering CLE reading for 5th and 6th grade. The 6th grade sample I looked at teaches pacifism. For anyone who has used this curriculum, can you tell me how often this comes up. I am not a pacifist and not Mennonite or Anabaptist and don't want to constantly be giving the other side of things. On the other hand, I don't mind my child reading a different point of view every now and then.

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks,

Kisa

[Guest]

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[ldee]

I have never seen anything like this before. I don't think I would mind my child reading about this or a different view every now and then. We haven't come across anything objectionable. I am neither mennonite nor anabaptist.

[phathui5]

I only have up through the fourth grade books, but pacifism, nonviolence, forgiveness, etc are definately heavy themes in the readers.

[G5052]

And it underlies many of the stories, but it is presented more as an example versus explicit "you must do this." I always have my kids narrate the story orally before doing the worksheets anyway, and we've dealt with it then. There were only maybe 2-3 times in the 6th grade book that there were things that I wanted to counter though. I don't mind some level of nonresistance and separation, but we don't go as far as the Mennonites do. DH and I believe in personal defense (our children take Aikido) and both of us have built our careers on government jobs. Several years ago I bought the R&S 5th grade reader, and it was much more explicit that way. I sold it right away.

[MIch elle]

that doesn't mean it hasn't. We've used all the CLE readers except CLE reading 6 which we'll be using this upcoming year.

 

We're practicing Episcopalians. We aren't pacifists but it doesn't bother us that others may choose this way.

 

Which lesson teaches pacifism? Where did you see this lesson? I have the reader 6 but not the workbooks yet. They probably mention pacifism, but I'm sure they don't teach it.

[DB in NJ]

I'm not sure. I'll go look through the reader and see what I can find. I have the 6th grade reading set for sale; dd never finished the course, so I can't answer your question :)

[Haiku]

the other side of things

 

This is OT, but it's a sincere question. What is "the other side" of pacifism?

 

Tara

[Plaid Dad]

What is "the other side" of pacifism

 

Just War theory would be an alternative view.

[Tami]

We are using the 5th grade book Open Windows as individual devotional reading. I haven't noticed anything I object to. We aren't pacifists, but greatly respect other Christians who choose that path. No, I havn't seen pacifism taught in Open Windows yet, so I don't believe it is a huge part of what is taught.

 

We are loving the content of the book. It is very uplifting.

[Kisa in CA]

Thanks everyone for your input. To answer where I saw the sample, it was sent to me via email from CLE. I think it's rather strong in it's teaching.

 

Here's an excerpt from the lesson:

 

Taking the Sword

 

 

“Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword†(Matthew 26:52).

 

 

 

Think about what this verse is saying: One who uses force—a sword or a gun—against others will die because of someone else using force against him.

 

 

Read Matthew 26:47-52. Answer the questions.

 

 

1. To whom did Jesus say these words?

2. Why?

3. In what way could this verse come true for someone who fights in a war?

 

 

This verse applies not only to using swords or guns in war but also to any kind

of fighting and any improper use of force. Think about the way you use your

hands. Have you ever pinched your brother or slapped your sister because you

were angry at them? You were “taking the sword.â€

 

 

Answer the questions.

 

 

4. Can the words we say be a way of “taking the sword�

5. Explain your answer.

6. Read John 18:36. Why did Jesus say that His servants do not fight (take the sword)?

 

Honestly, I don't think it will be a problem for me, but I think it could cause some confusion to a military child. I can certainly discuss this with my kids and balance it with all of scripture, but honestly, I don't always want to use the precious school time to do this. I like to choose when and where I will approach controversial subjects KWIM? I think I am going to use CLE, but I'm glad to know this ahead of time. The fact that the 1 lesson CLE sent me as a sample had such storng verbage scared me a bit. I understand they have a right to put in their beliefs and I'm great with that. Just not sure it would fit for me.

 

Anyway, thanks everyone!

Kisa

 

 

[Tami]

Hi Kisa,

 

I see the emphasis on the lesson you send on being peaceable with brothers and sisters, and with the words we say. I doubt most kids would even notice the pacifism part of that lesson, since the emphasis is on the child's daily life.

 

When we started the reading program, I explained to dd what pacifism is, what the arguments for it are, and explained that Mennonites are pacifists. It's not something I worry about, or something that has honestly even come up so far. I feel that a good argument for pacifism can be made from the New Testament, and it is good to consider things from the view of other Christians. This is an exercise in logic, Scriptural exposition, and meditation. I want my dd to be able to consider another's opinion carefullly, without having to agree with it. Especially when we are talking about 5th/6th grade and up. Pacifism is a non-essential doctrine, so there is room for disagreement without dividing.

 

It honestly hasn't come up in the 5th grade book, but I wouldn't have a problem with it. We are Calvinists, but I don't have a problem using an Arminian Bible study - since we still agree with 99% of what is taught. I enjoy learning about what other Christians believe, and think it's valuable to consider others' viewpoints, especially in the Logic stage. Let your child dig into the arguments for herself, if it comes up. Wonderful for the mind and spirit!

[G5052]

DH and I are picky when it comes to subtle theological undertones in homeschool materials, and I do see it in CLE. It may not be a big deal to some families of course, but it is definitely a consideration. Kisa reminded me that it's much more overt in the LightUnits than in the readers, so those who use just the readers will encounter it less than those who use the readers with the LightUnits. It's also more frequent as you go up the grades.

 

They also advocate self-employment or only working for believers as a part of their belief in separatism. Government employment is discouraged.

 

That said, we still use CLE and are fine modifying it. I have yet to find a curriculum provider out that truly matches our beliefs anyway. :D

[Tami]

Since we are mainly using the reader without the workbook, that is likely why we haven't noticed it. The mix of stories, poems and Scripture is fantastic.

[Kisa in CA]

Thanks Tami and GVA, I so agree with what you have shared. Discussion and thinking, loving and learning will all come from using this curriculum.

 

Blessings,

Kisa

[phathui5]

DH and I are picky when it comes to subtle theological undertones in homeschool materials, and I do see it in CLE.

 

I didn't think they were being subtle about it. CLE and Rod and Staff are both very open about both the fact that they're Anabaptist companies and that their materials teach that viewpoint.

[G5052]

They're absolutely open about their beliefs, in fact more so than some publishers IMHO. Our family is probably leans more that way than most on this board without actually being Mennonite.

 

I do think though that it's important to look at the theology of the company publishing the materials, because there will indeed be subtle differences in how they present things and what they emphasize. If that's a problem for a family, they need to decide how to handle it versus ignoring it or being unaware.

[Julie in CA]

DH and I are picky when it comes to subtle theological undertones in homeschool materials, and I do see it in CLE. It may not be a big deal to some families of course, but it is definitely a consideration. Kisa reminded me that it's much more overt in the LightUnits than in the readers, so those who use just the readers will encounter it less than those who use the readers with the LightUnits. It's also more frequent as you go up the grades.

 

They also advocate self-employment or only working for believers as a part of their belief in separatism. Government employment is discouraged.

 

That said, we still use CLE and are fine modifying it. I have yet to find a curriculum provider out that truly matches our beliefs anyway. :D

 

We are a Reformed family, and I found much in the CLE history that we just could not overlook. The slant against the Reformers was...rather intense, imo. Do you only use the language arts, or do you use other subjects also?

[G5052]

We are a Reformed family, and I found much in the CLE history that we just could not overlook. The slant against the Reformers was...rather intense, imo. Do you only use the language arts, or do you use other subjects also?

 

My oldest is using their Math 6 right now, and I actually have been looking over their Math 7 over this last week and decided to return it. There's an emphasis on "occupations for Christians" that I'm not comfortable with, so we'll be using other programs for 7th and up.

 

I'm OK with their geography-centered history, but not with their historical programs, although for different reasons than you state. There really isn't a textbook-based Christian history program that fits our theological views though.

 

And I'm OK with their reading, but I pre-read and discuss. We use other things for language arts.

 

Ah, curriculum...

[titianmom]

I'm joking, of course. I can't imagine anyone not liking what you have in the quote.

 

But honestly, if you've studied Church history at all, the early church was pacifist.

 

Kim

 

I only have up through the fourth grade books, but pacifism, nonviolence, forgiveness, etc are definately heavy themes in the readers.

[H0MEFree]

An interesting and exciting read (or movie even!) is Sargeant York.

 

He was pacifist and then when questioned by the military group he had joined decided to seek the Lord about it all (at his superior's insistance). God was pretty clear in answering him during this quest. Sargeant York returned to the military and came home an incredible war hero. Great true story!

[titianmom]

But doesn't really prove anything. And I guess I'll end up playing the advocate, here.

 

So, are we saying that the early Church was in error, then?

 

I mean, when you think about it, during the 3rd centruy for ex, Rome was dealing with the Barbarian incursions. They were looking for recruits and the Christians refused to sign up. They also refused to bow the knee to the Emperor, of course. These people were willing to die rather than fight.

 

I was in the military, BTW, and I'm not Mennonite, either, so I'm not slamming anyone, here. I've been a Christian for many moons and I'm probably much older than most of the posters on this site. I believe that in my earlier days I walked in the light that God had given me, and He was with me when I was in the military.

 

But now, at 46, could I do that again? I'd have a harder time signing on the line and raising the right hand.

 

Of course, if God came to me and ordered me to go, I"d go. (Assuming I could even sign at 46, LOL. Hey, there's homeland security...) I believe God has His reasons for everything and I do believe in exceptions, and God isn't interested in appearances, but Truth and accomplishing His will and developing character in our lives. What really matters is His will. But I'd have to be dead certain it was God before I'd sign.

 

As a general rule, Jesus' "Love your enemies" thing is to be taken seriously, and we're to obey the authorities over us unless it conflicts with the will of God. American Christians seem to gloss over these Scriptures way too often and have the mindset that we're the good guys and they're the bad guys, and God is obviously on our side, etc, etc. and this is a Christian nation, which it really isn't, and is becoming less Christian all the time.

 

God is only on God's side. (Joshua 5). I can't emphasize this enough, folks. God raises up and puts down nations at His choosing. He even told the Israelites that they weren't chosen because they were better than the other people in the area, etc., and made it clear to them that His choice was Sovereign and had nothing to do with them at all. Very humbling, no?

 

It's the American theology that gets to me, sometimes, at 46. :)

 

I just throw this out as something to ponder and pray about. I'm not pointing fingers at people, just trying to point people back to the Scriptures to get people to consider the other guy's view.

 

It's a tough issue, to be sure, and it sometimes takes years to wrestle with. My concern is, no one is wrestling at all, it seems--or very few are, anyway.

 

Just don't assume that the majority is right because they're the majority, you know? I think the Anabaptists have a valid argument that we should listen to, at least.

 

FYI, during the religious wars between the Catholics and Protestants after the Reformation, when they were all killing each other (God help us...), it was the Anabaptists who refused to fight other Christians. There were some fringe Anabaptist groups that were violent, but the vast majority of them simply refused to fight anyone and they were slaughtered because of their willingness to do what Jesus taught. It's sooo sad to think we were killing each other, you know?

 

Take care and God Bless,

Kim

[toawh]

and taught it for 6 years in a co-op school till I read TWM and cut it out. Besides it being too expensive at 30 dollars per subject per student year after year in in a format that can't be reused like a textbook, their religion is definitely there in the history. Though they do not believe in war and openly state it, you'll find that they love to talk about tortute. In 5th grade one whole light unit is dedicated to their martyrs and they quiz the student on the names of each and how they died, etc.. On the other hand someone influencial like Queen Elizabeth gets two paragraphs worth of coverage mainly stating that she persecuted Anabaptsits. Take it for what it's worth.