Need help choosing Algebra curriculum

[Berley]

Hey Guys! I have a 5th grade student that is almost done with pre-algebra. Last year was our first homeschool year and we landed with Singapore for math. This year, I'm using Singapore 6A, 6B, MUS pre-algebra, a little bit of AOPS, and the Making Algebra Child's Play manipulatives. The MUS pre-algebra isn't as challenging as I had hoped, so I'm supplementing as needed. Basically, we start with the MUS pages and then move on to more challenging problems, even if I have to make them up. I expected pre-algebra (all of the curriculum mentioned) to take us a year and a half to get through, taking us through fall of 2013. BUT, my DD will be done by the end of January. I've looked at the Saxon placement tests and she would easily test into Saxon algebra. I'm not a big Saxon fan because of the way it jumps around. The sequence doesn't make sense to me and she thinks a lot like I do. She isn't fond of AoPS because she "needs" (in her mind) to be able to complete a lesson, and that isn't always possible in AoPS, which is why we only use it occasionally. I've purchased used copies of Foerster's and Saxon (even though I haven't been a big fan in the past) to look at, but they haven't come in yet. Our school administrator recommends Saxon, which is why I even gave it any thought. DD is very good at math, but doesn't love it. I want something challenging, but not to the point that she can't complete all of the problems (like AoPS) because that only frustrates her. Any suggestions?

[Berley]

Dot, I have considered that, but she doesn't really get Singapore's way of thinking. I think part of that is because we didn't start until 4th grade. She can do the problems, but most of the time it's not like they want her to. She understands the way I learned it more than she understands Singapore's way of doing it. Even with me explaining the Singapore methods and working problems with her, she typically responds with, "Will it work if I do it this way?"...and "this way" is the old fashioned way of doing problems. Although she is very bright for her age and thinks outside the box, she seems to "get" the old-school way of doing math moreso than the Singapore way. I was a bit concerned about continuing with Singapore just because I was afraid that she couldn't follow their higher level courses. That being said, I haven't seen their series past 6th grade, so I don't know if she could continue and maybe be able to see things the way they present it. ??

[jennynd]

Math is math. If she gets the answer, I won't be insist Singapore way. DS also didn't start SM until he was 4th grade level but was did part of SM 3 to fill some holes. I generally do not force him to do SM way unless he get stuck, then I will suggest him to try to draw the diagram to help.

There are 2 series SM middle school math. NEM is known as more challenging but not a lot teacher support. And DM, which is more primary SM looking, and more user friendly. And most people still think it is a very challenging program.. I don't have DM so I can't comment. We are using AOPS algebra with NEM.

Did ur DD finish the SM CWP and IP? If not, that might be a choice from now to the end of school year. DS finished 6a/b text and workbook in about 4/5 months and we decided to finish all CWP and IP before we moved on to AOPS algebra. Just a thought

[Berley]

Jennynd, we haven't done CWP and IP. That is a great idea to help fill in the rest of the school year so I can put off the Algebra a little while. Does it bother your DS to not be able to finish all of the problems in AOPS? I really like the idea of AOPS, but my DD just got frustrated with it because she couldn't finish it.

[jennynd]

Jennynd, we haven't done CWP and IP. That is a great idea to help fill in the rest of the school year so I can put off the Algebra a little while. Does it bother your DS to not be able to finish all of the problems in AOPS? I really like the idea of AOPS, but my DD just got frustrated with it because she couldn't finish it.

 

no, It does not bother my son. Also since I plan to reuse the book for my DD later, I copy the pages I am going to use for him, so he really have no idea what he missed. And I do calibrate the end of chapter challenging questions that he goona do base on how he does the problems/excercises. DS is quite young so there are word questions he simply don't understand the background, and there are questions in challenging section is just too hard for him (I learned the hard way,). So far, into chapter 8, He is able to finish all problem/excercise most on his own. But we skipped quite a bit end of chapter challenge problems in ch6 and ch7) I do plan to circle back later and that is also part of the reason that we do NEM on the side. Knowing that AOPS is extremely challenge, I want to have him use NEM as review to make sure we do not miss anything that is important.

The other thing we did during the last year of singapore math is that we added "Key to algebra". It has 10 books and each is about 30 page total. you can easily finish a book in 1 or 2 week. It is very gentle introduction of algebra. It covers about 80% of typical algebra but on the very easy side. We use that combined with SM 6 as our pre-algebra.

[Sunshine State Sue]

My personal favorite is Foerster. You may read my review here. I only hesitate to recommend it because of your dd's age.

 

Another you might want to consider is Margaret Lial. You may be able to find her Algebra book at the library or through inter-library loan.

 

Yet another is Life of Fred. In fact, you might like some of the pre-algebra books. I hesitate to suggest LoF, however, because I think it is more similar to AoPS (with which I have zero experience). We used LoF Algebra in 7th grade. It did not fit ds's learning style.

 

Finally, since she is young, you may want to consider Patty Paper Geometry as a fun intro to Geometry.

 

HTH!

 

ETA: I can relate to not getting Singapore. We briefly tried Singapore around 3rd grade, but it was a bust for us. We did eventually use their CWPs with great success. Well, I thought is was successful. Ds thought they were evil. :nopity:

[wapiti]

Two thoughts: 1. you could use or supplement with AoPS Prealgebra by only assigning particular problems so that there isn't the issue with not finishing. 2. Jacobs may be a nice choice for algebra for a younger student.

 

Also, you might post on the accelarated board.

[ccolopy]

DS really enjoyed Foerster's at about that age. He used most of the Key to series alongside Singapore, then finished up Key to Algebra before starting Foerster.

 

Another option I've seen recently on the board is to use MUS Algebra 1 as a pre-algebra before Foerster or another algebra course. If she likes MUS apart from it being too easy, that might be an option for you to check out.

[Berley]

Thank you all so much for your suggestions!

 

Sue, I'm curious...why do you hestitate to recommend Foerster based on her age? Is the look of the textbook intimidating, material that they cover, etc? She is an older fifth grader. Birthday falls in early September, so she is 11 most of her fifth grade year. She is doing 6th & 7th grade material, and we are considering skipping 8th grade if she stays way ahead. Her best friends are 1-2 years ahead of her in school (grade-wise), so she really acts and thinks more like 6th grade. I'm not lobbying anything. :) From looking at the boards, it looks like you're very familiar with many of the different curriculums, so I'd like to pick your brain as much possible on the best for my DD. teehee

 

Again, thank you for your help everyone!

[Sunshine State Sue]

Sue, I'm curious...why do you hestitate to recommend Foerster based on her age? Is the look of the textbook intimidating, material that they cover, etc?

I only hesitate because I have no experience with using Foersters with a student that age. Math is ds's strongest subject, and we used Foester's in 8th grade after using MUS and LoF in 7th grade. I simply don't know how successful it would be as first exposure to a student your dd's age.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Would you be able to turn around the idea of satisfactory completion in her mind at all? Sometimes we've had success by setting a time allotment for dedicated, strong math work. If they are only on number 17 (or 12 or 8) at the end of an hour, that's fine. They just start at the next problem the next day.

 

And I would also mention that the AoPS Intro to Algebra book actually contains material for both a traditional Algebra 1 and Algebra 2 course. Their online classes are very accelerated, but you can look at the list of topics and compare them to chapter headings. I think chapter 13 is about the end of Algebra 1. There is also a chapter or two of in depth math competition material that you may or may not decide to use.

 

I have at least one kid who is very focused on reality matching up with how he imagines a situation should go. Sometimes I carefully pick curriculum that is a good solid match. But there are other times when I gently try to steer him toward learning to adapt.

 

FWIW, there are some humdingers in AoPS. There are problems that take me 30 min or more to figure out, sometimes going in circles as I do so. I keep explaining to my own kids that it is the process of wrestling with math and physics that makes them better at it. Problem solving requires a combination of skills and creativity. Familiarity with the process of figuring something out is what improves both.

[mathwonk]

I may be an outlier here, but it concerns me when a young advanced student is already stuck on doing things the same old familiar way, in order to get every answer right, rather than being open to learning new ideas and methods. I would hope a gifted child would learn to experiment a bit with more than one way to do things. In the long run that is far more valuable than cranking out the answers in the same way over and over. It sounds as if the child is not comfortable with this, but maybe it can be encouraged. Just a suggestion.

[dereksurfs]

Hey Guys! I have a 5th grade student that is almost done with pre-algebra. Last year was our first homeschool year and we landed with Singapore for math. This year, I'm using Singapore 6A, 6B, MUS pre-algebra, a little bit of AOPS, and the Making Algebra Child's Play manipulatives. The MUS pre-algebra isn't as challenging as I had hoped, so I'm supplementing as needed. Basically, we start with the MUS pages and then move on to more challenging problems, even if I have to make them up. I expected pre-algebra (all of the curriculum mentioned) to take us a year and a half to get through, taking us through fall of 2013. BUT, my DD will be done by the end of January. I've looked at the Saxon placement tests and she would easily test into Saxon algebra. I'm not a big Saxon fan because of the way it jumps around. The sequence doesn't make sense to me and she thinks a lot like I do. She isn't fond of AoPS because she "needs" (in her mind) to be able to complete a lesson, and that isn't always possible in AoPS, which is why we only use it occasionally. I've purchased used copies of Foerster's and Saxon (even though I haven't been a big fan in the past) to look at, but they haven't come in yet. Our school administrator recommends Saxon, which is why I even gave it any thought. DD is very good at math, but doesn't love it. I want something challenging, but not to the point that she can't complete all of the problems (like AoPS) because that only frustrates her. Any suggestions?

 

Hi, I was in a similar situation as you with our ds11 earlier this year. We started with MUS Pre-A and I quickly discovered I wanted more depth along with greater scope. The main reason we selected it initially was because he has used MUS up until this point and its S&S is different from others elementary programs. Anyway after reviewing various programs which could offer more we decided to give TabletClass a try. I didn't feel he was ready for AoPS discovery yet or the writting style of the book. TabletClass Pre-A has been great in terms of rigor and scope including excellent lectures. ds11 is hitting similar topics as AoPS such as linear equations and even beyond with functions. We also suppliment with AoPS at times for another perspective.

 

I'm not sure if you have considered several great online /DVD lecture programs. Here a few worth looking into:

TabletClass

Derek Owens (Based on Dolciani)

Jann In Texas (Lials)

Math without Borders (Foerster)

 

I also bought Foerster, Dolciani and AoPS Algebra and am reviewing them to prepare for what is next. Though I would like to utilize Zaccaro's Real World Algebra between Pre-A and Algebra 1. I was definately impressed with the Foerster book as I think you will be once you recieve it. The others are great as well. But honestly ds11 is thriving so well with TabletClass currently that we will most likely continue with it for Algebra 1, then integrate one or more of these other great texts in as we go.

 

With young learners you have plently of time. And Algebra is such a foundational subject that its ok to spend more time on it. That is why I will most likely use more than one resource and extend it up to two years depending on how things go.

[Candid]

I may be an outlier here, but it concerns me when a young advanced student is already stuck on doing things the same old familiar way, in order to get every answer right, rather than being open to learning new ideas and methods. I would hope a gifted child would learn to experiment a bit with more than one way to do things. In the long run that is far more valuable than cranking out the answers in the same way over and over. It sounds as if the child is not comfortable with this, but maybe it can be encouraged. Just a suggestion.

 

 

:iagree:

 

But the Singapore rod method approach to word problems is pretty unique. It took me two passes through the material over an extended period to really grasp and feel fluid with it. Since mom says dd is doing what mom knows I expect mom is struggling with teaching the method (especially since she entered after Singapore has the method in play.)

 

NEM does not continue to use rods and I like it a bunch (more than the primary series). However, it is clear that NEM is being phased out. My suggestion is to look at the DM series from Singapore and go over to their board and ask some hard questions about the areas that she is struggling with in the Primary series to learn if her current problems are even going to be there in the upper level series.

 

If you want to switch I think suggestions for AoPS are a good idea.

[Berley]

I may be an outlier here, but it concerns me when a young advanced student is already stuck on doing things the same old familiar way, in order to get every answer right, rather than being open to learning new ideas and methods. I would hope a gifted child would learn to experiment a bit with more than one way to do things. In the long run that is far more valuable than cranking out the answers in the same way over and over. It sounds as if the child is not comfortable with this, but maybe it can be encouraged. Just a suggestion.

 

 

I agree with you. I also have a 2nd grader that is doing Singapore (went through 1A and 1B last year - is in 2B now). I have to admit that last year, I had some trouble teaching the 4th and 5th grade Singapore methods because I didn't understand it. There were MANY times I had to pull out the home educator's manual to see how on earth they expected a chid to get an answer that I only knew how to get using algebra. However, this semester, I've "found my groove" and it makes MUCH more sense to me, therefore I can explain it to her better. DD in 5th grade CAN work the problems like Singapore does it. She just prefers my "old" way. However, when she gets stuck and can't figure out how to set up the problem using my ways, she uses the Singapore method and can set up her problems correctly and get the right answer. She had just rather do it the way I know to do it. 2nd grade DD totally gets the Singapore method and loves it. :)

[Berley]

And thank you all for keeping the ideas coming! I appreciate them ALL!

[OSUBuckeye]

My suggestions would be Key To Algebra (to help learn the algorithms of Algebra, as it hand-holds a kid through how to write algebra symbols and solve algebra problems accurately without thinking about the why). In an analogy to learning multiplication, this is the most painless resource for memorizing your times tables (though maybe you won't be able to express why you ever need to know 7x7 after the series is over)

 

Zaccaro's Algebra book has easy problem sets and cartoon graphics that teach the essentials of Algebra. It is a gentle introduction into the conceptual understandings of Algebra, though it stops short of being comprehensive. To continue the analogy, this could be the resource that has your kid going, "mom, look, i discovered this stuff called multiplication (arranges tiles into a 3 by 5 pattern and beams brightly for being the smartest kid ever)." The book is written aimed at gifted fifth graders, and it would be a great "summer math" resource to get the kid thinking, along with the more mindless solving of the Key to... Books.

 

Finally, for a true full-year Algebra textbook for kids that age, I highly recommend Jacobs' Algebra. It's a textbook that feels like it was written lovingly by your mathematical uncle just for you, contains a sizable pre-algebra review in the front part, and rigorously and step-by-step goes through the concepts of Algebra in a way that a mathematician would think about Algebra. The style is such that you could sit discussing the math orally, then write the solutions down for practice. You can preview the Jacobs textbook for free online through Googlebooks.

 

I haven't seen it personally, but I heard Foerster's strength comes from application problems, like an engineering approach to Algebra. So Foerster's might have you calculating the seconds of a moving train or a kicked football, while Jacobs' is more likely to have you creating Pascal's Triangle and exploring the commutative and associative properties just to make sure that they really do always work, if you know what I mean. Which is better? It depends on if your kid loves that 5 and 3 always equals 8 and they "see" math, or if they're more into why they need to know this stuff later on and thrive on word problems. I like switching over the engineering approach once I get to Pre-Calculus, because then the application problems are far more realistic, and make abstract math concrete and real. I like to leave Algebra I more in the mathematical abstract while the kid learns the basic foundations of higher level math.

 

Art of Problem Solving may be another good textbook option, but a concern is that some kids this age get frustrated with not knowing an answer immediately, even if they are capable of solving the problems. Some people wait until the kid matures a bit to switch into the Art of Problem Solving series. It's certainly worth checking out though.