math puzzler for pre-algebra. Help!!!

[thebacabunch]

my dd12 is super smart. She is currently doing SM5A and LoF fractions. She usually gets about 90 to 95% on all of her reviews/bridges. Her mistakes are usually an oversight rather than not understanding a concept.

 

She does not consider herself to be mathy. She prefers LA. Math is a fight sometimes because she just doesn't enjoy it though she is good at it. I don't need to fight her with LoF, but she isn't jumping up and down to do it like her mathy sister.

 

So, here is the puzzle for me. What on earth do I do for pre-algebra? We will continue with LoF because it is fun, but I don't think of it as our main curriculum. I am trying to choose between singapore and AoP. I have been looking at the samples of both and AoP actually seems to fit her style more as it is more , I don't know, literary (I can't quite think of how to put this) than singapore. She loves professor Layton games and other types of problem solving games. I am worried, though, because AoP is advertised as a challenging program for mathy kids.

 

So, she's good at math but not in love with it. Anyone out there have a similar kid or some experience with AoP who is willing to give me an opinion?

[dereksurfs]

Do you mean AoPS as in Art of Problem Solving vs AoP? If so AoPS is known to be better suited for children who really enjoy wrestling with math problems. Its discovery approach lends itself toward that. It is one of the most rigorous programs available and demanding on the student.

 

There are so many other Pre-Algebra options out there which may be a better fit. I would consider some of the others first, especially based on the the fact that she doesn't really enjoy math right now. Then let her demo them and participate in the process before committing to something she may not even like at all. This may help her enjoy math a bit more. Here are just a few more to explore:

 

Derek Owens

TabletClass

KineticBooks

Horizons

MUS

Lials with Jann in Texas

 

We are using TabletClass right now and highly recommend it. But we also own and have used MUS. We also have Lials, though prefer the others two more. Derek Owens always gets great reviews for his classes as does Jann in Texas.

 

Another thing to consider is that Pre-A is simply a bridge from Primary to Secondary Math. So its good to have an idea of where you are going with Algebra and beyond. With some of these programs there are additional follow on courses available, while others will simply be a stepping stone to an entirely different program.

Edited October 14, 2012 by dereksurfs

[8filltheheart]

my dd12 is super smart. She is currently doing SM5A and LoF fractions. She usually gets about 90 to 95% on all of her reviews/bridges. Her mistakes are usually an oversight rather than not understanding a concept.

 

She does not consider herself to be mathy. She prefers LA. Math is a fight sometimes because she just doesn't enjoy it though she is good at it. I don't need to fight her with LoF, but she isn't jumping up and down to do it like her mathy sister.

 

So, here is the puzzle for me. What on earth do I do for pre-algebra? We will continue with LoF because it is fun, but I don't think of it as our main curriculum. I am trying to choose between singapore and AoP. I have been looking at the samples of both and AoP actually seems to fit her style more as it is more , I don't know, literary (I can't quite think of how to put this) than singapore. She loves professor Layton games and other types of problem solving games. I am worried, though, because AoP is advertised as a challenging program for mathy kids.

 

So, she's good at math but not in love with it. Anyone out there have a similar kid or some experience with AoP who is willing to give me an opinion?

 

My 8th grader dd is a very strong student. She also it a language loving young lady who is equally strong in math but doesn't love it like she loves language.

 

I finally convinced her to try AoPS alg last yr b/c her older brother is an AoPS fan and finished high school math w/their texts. While she completed the course w/o any difficulty, it was something she merely tolerated. It was not a process of joy like it was for her brother. (I'm not sure how to articulate the love of puzzling through a single math problem for hours and the sense of pure self-satisfaction of finally figuring it out that math lovers experience via AoPS.) Dd didn't really have that experience b/c she took it after already finishing another alg course but she just does not like the way AoPS teaches and really doesn't get that sort of thrill out of math. Reading the Song of Roland or Marmion and working through the language.......that is where she gets her thrills. ;)

 

I don't think that anyone can tell you definitively, but my guess would be that AoPS for a child who sometimes fights math (the 2 kids I am discussing have never fought math---ever) would probably not enjoy the process of struggling through the process.

 

FWIW, AoPS is absolutely NOTHING like LOF fractions.

 

As far as suggestions, Jacobs is very word-oriented. I have never used the alg text, but others have posted it starts w/pre-alg overview. You might ask about it from people that have actually used it whether or not you can jump into it after SM 5 or if she would need to complete 6.

 

My older 5 kids all used MUS alg/geo for pre-alg/pre-geo. It has been a great fit for them and made the transition to high school alg easy.

 

HTH

[dbmamaz]

But if she's never going to 'love' math, but likely to succeed, why not use AoPS - its a great math education, and you never know what her future might hold

[8filltheheart]

But if she's never going to 'love' math, but likely to succeed, why not use AoPS - its a great math education, and you never know what her future might hold

 

Have you had a child go through the AoPS math sequence? I ask b/c AoPS does not approach math instruction in a manner that students that don't want to put the mental effort into working through the materials are going to benefit from. It doesn't teach a step by step process and then have students do the math. Accepting the frustration of working toward understanding vs. being explicitly taught the material is how the texts engage the students.

 

In addition to not directly teaching the material, the math is just plain hard. It is much "more" than the avg student needs. It is absolutely not a hill to die on. If a student enjoys it, AoPS is a blessing. But, the flip side is that AoPS could actually drive a strong math student to hate math vs. just tolerating it. Kids can receive an excellent math education and still become strong STEM majors via more traditional approaches to topics.

 

I have had students go both routes.....traditional and AoPS. I have the highest respect for AoPS and am thrilled w/what my ds got out of it. But, it is definitely not all math students, even strong ones.

[AimeeM]

We plan to use Jacobs next year for my daughter - similar to yours, she is good at math, but doesn't really enjoy it (although she isn't a LA person either; she's more science oriented). I've heard good things about Jacobs. Wish I could find a sample though.

[dbmamaz]

Have you had a child go through the AoPS math sequence? I ask b/c AoPS does not approach math instruction in a manner that students that don't want to put the mental effort into working through the materials are going to benefit from. It doesn't teach a step by step process and then have students do the math.

no, but thats why i had the bit 'but likely to succeed' . . . if you dont think your child would succeed (which to me means without a ton of extra help and melt-downs) with that approach, of course its not worth it. OP said "AoP actually seems to fit her style more " . . . so if she thinks it WILL work for her BETTER than LOF, then why not. that was my point.

[boscopup]

I've heard good things about Jacobs. Wish I could find a sample though.

 

Nice lengthy one on Google Books here. :D

[8filltheheart]

no, but thats why i had the bit 'but likely to succeed' . . . if you dont think your child would succeed (which to me means without a ton of extra help and melt-downs) with that approach, of course its not worth it. OP said "AoP actually seems to fit her style more " . . . so if she thinks it WILL work for her BETTER than LOF, then why not. that was my point.

 

I guess you meant to originally respond under the OP vs. my post. ;)

 

FWIW, my dd never needed any extra help from me nor did she have any meltdowns. (My response was written from the perspective of a student that is fully capable of doing AoPS if she desired to do it. My dd does not like the method and doesn't want to put that much time into math.

I agree that it is difficult for anyone else to determine whether or not AoPS will be a good fit for a strong math student w/o trying the method.

 

But, anyone planning on using AoPS (at the higher levels anyway. I have only used the alg which I can't assess accurately b/c dd didn't spend a normal amt of time doing it since she did after Foersters. Ds used intermediate alg up through cal, so I am familiar w/watching a student who has no previous exposure to the topics use those texts) needs to understand that it is not a math curriculum that lends itself to simply being opened, cranking out the math problems, and being done. It just doesn't teach that way. Students are meant to chew on problems for long periods of time and reach conclusions about what they are learning. It is like deriving proofs for every formula vs. using the formula. Students that don't like math well enough to want to wrestle through the process will not really get the full benefit of the program. (in some of the higher level courses, my ds might have spent 3 hrs on a single math problem. Only those that like to puzzle through math like that are going to really love it.)

 

Since the OP mentioned that her dd doesn't like math, it is the time commitment to the process that I would question.

Edited October 15, 2012 by 8FillTheHeart

[dereksurfs]

no, but thats why i had the bit 'but likely to succeed' . . . if you dont think your child would succeed (which to me means without a ton of extra help and melt-downs) with that approach, of course its not worth it. OP said "AoP actually seems to fit her style more " . . . so if she thinks it WILL work for her BETTER than LOF, then why not? that was my point.

 

I think the why not was the question 8Fill and I were filling in with some details based on the type of curriculum AoPS is. Its simply not for everyone for a number of reasons which upon a initial glance may not be noticeable. However after reviewing the content, approach and level of difficulty if the OP thinks her daughter is up for it and doesn't mind it may be fine. But based on her post it didn't sounds like that. She could always give it a try and see of course. You never know...

Edited October 16, 2012 by dereksurfs

[regentrude]

Students are meant to chew on problems for long periods of time and reach conclusions about what they are learning. It is like deriving proofs for every formula vs. using the formula. Students that don't like math well enough to want to wrestle through the process will not really get the full benefit of the program. (in some of the higher level courses, my ds might have spent 3 hrs on a single math problem. Only those that like to puzzle through math like that are going to really love it.)

 

Since the OP mentioned that her dd doesn't like math, it is the time commitment to the process that I would question.

 

:iagree:

We love AoPS, but I could not imagine subjecting a student who does not enjoy math to a program that is so much more rigorous and time consuming than every other piece of math curriculum. Why would one do that?

[thebacabunch]

All good points. I am not actually trying to choose between LoF (which I find fun but extra) and AoPs but Singapore and AoPs. Both are rigorous and I expect her to do her best. She is capable of doing either and will be expected to spend 1.5 to 2 hours a day on math regardles off what I choose. I am just trying to figure out which to choose for her personality. She does like puzzles more than doing lots of figures. I read the first chapters of both books and I am going to have her do the same. That is the only way to figure it out.

 

I don't expect her to do more than she is able, however, one of the reasons I homeschool her is to give her a more rigorous education than she would get in ps. I want her to be prepared for whatever she would like to do for her life.

 

Thanks for the feedback!

[dbmamaz]

I use singapore upper level stuff for my older son, who had serious math phobia when at school. We skip the extra-challenging problems, though. I'm hoping to be able to use AoPS with my younger one, but i'm not sure he'll make it there, maturity-wise. But i WANT him to so badly!!

[Arcadia]

I am just trying to figure out which to choose for her personality. She does like puzzles more than doing lots of figures.

 

Why not both unless there is a time contraint?

 

During the mornings, my older just like getting his schoolwork done and Singapore is more straightforward. During the evenings, he likes to entertain himself with more puzzling math. We are finishing up SM 6B soon.

[thebacabunch]

Thanks all! Lots of good ideas and information.

[redsquirrel]

My son went through all of SM and did 6a&6b in 6th grade. This year, he is doing AoPS pre-algebra.

 

You mention that you expect her to spend 1.5 to 2 hours a day on math. I don't think my son ever took that long with Singapore. I guess if I included the instruction time and time spend working out the problems in the text along with the workbook problems, we might have pushed it to 90 mins on occasion, but not often.

 

Even after completing all 6 years of SM, AoPS is easily taking 60 mins plus every day. I wouldn't call my son a math lover, by any means, but he is competent. He picked out AoPS himself, because he liked the look of it. It's not what I would have picked for him, but he is working through it.

[thebacabunch]

Right now we spend about an hour a day on average. I expect this to go up in middle school and high school based on my research.

[dereksurfs]

All good points. I am not actually trying to choose between LoF (which I find fun but extra) and AoPs but Singapore and AoPs. Both are rigorous and I expect her to do her best. She is capable of doing either and will be expected to spend 1.5 to 2 hours a day on math regardles off what I choose. I am just trying to figure out which to choose for her personality. She does like puzzles more than doing lots of figures. I read the first chapters of both books and I am going to have her do the same. That is the only way to figure it out.

 

I don't expect her to do more than she is able, however, one of the reasons I homeschool her is to give her a more rigorous education than she would get in ps. I want her to be prepared for whatever she would like to do for her life.

 

Thanks for the feedback!

 

This sounds like the best way to go. Have her give them a try.

 

Also don't forget about the video lessons that go along with AoPS as well here:

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Videos/index.php?type=prealgebra

 

I think these are supposed to be watched after trying the first challenge problem of the chapter.

Edited October 16, 2012 by dereksurfs