Please let me get this out of my system so I can work. (Warning: CC)

[Janie]

I just need to unload this from my mind so I can move on and get the work done today I need to. Though this post technically belongs on the general board, I've chosen this board because of the fewer people and most of the ones I've "grown up with," so to speak, since the WTM's beginning are here.

 

What is the deal with my church? My heritage is historic Presbyterianism. I embrace everything about it as it proceeded from the Reformation. Until eight years ago, we were in the conservative Presbyterian denomination, but since then, by God's providence, we have been in the most liberal Presby denomination. My dh is a former pastor in the conservative branch until be relocated and has been a ruling elder in the liberal branch for as many years as we've attended this particular little church. We have an ongoing dilemma with the denomination's departure from Biblical rule, especially since this summer's General Assembly. This, plus our immediate hurdle may well signify our need to leave the denomination and this little church.

 

(A little background: We have a new minister for 18 months. He does not visit anyone unless they are old, sick, and infirmed. He does not greet people as they arrive to church, only a handshake and nod (almost literally) given as you walk out the door. He does attend Sunday School. He preaches a 5-9 minute sermon that he literally reads from a paper. He has no agenda for any regular session meeting. He will not commit to doing the church's traditional children's message because he "doesn't like to do that." He is basically a recluse.)

 

You see, a couple in our church is about to divorce. These members are in their 50's. Until the wife wrote and sent a letter to a number of church members, we did not know that there was anything going on. It was kept well under wraps until the letter brought the adultery charges into the public sphere.

 

When this came across our radar, dh called our minister (I refuse to call him a pastor) to ask if he was aware of this. He told dh he'd heard something about it. Well, it's been going on since last August (unknown to us until two weeks ago) and the divorce is final next week. Dh asked minister if he had been to see them to offer counsel; he said no. Dh offered to go with him. Minister said no.

 

At the regular session meeting this week, dh waited to see if minister was going to bring this up; he didn't; dh did. Minister got HOT. He said that he was told the couple would get mad and leave the church if he went. Besides, he said, he was not qualified to offer counsel in the situation. REALLY? (Sunday, dh spoke to the husband, expressing his sorrow at the situation and offered a "if there is anything I can do" opening. The man was very accepting and thanked dh for his concern, saying it was the worst thing he's ever had to go through, etc., etc. Hardly the getting mad and leaving the church conversation.)

 

So, just how bad do situations have to get before this minister makes himself available to a person(s)? I cannot help but recall the quote about all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Though not a Biblical injunction, that quote certainly rings true. Then there are all the directives in Corinthians and Timothy. Go figure! I guess Christians are just to ignore the Bible in real life.

 

Anyway, the meeting went south quickly. The minister was almost out of control with anger (at what? doing his job?) and there were a couple of the women elders who followed suit. Another elder addressed the minister with "I'd be satisfied if you said this was being taken care of." Minister said it was. Dh then asked if he had talked to or with the couple. He said no. (Is it really being taken care of?)

 

Then suddenly, minister asks for adjornment, the two women elders moved and seconded, and the minister quickly walked out the door. Dh couldn't help himself but say he was going to complain against the actions of the session (he said later he doesn't know if he will or not), that the adjoinment action did not show integrity to properly and Biblically deal with the matter. That's when the minister fired back at dh saying he was going to complain against dh. Dh said for what? For trying to be obedient in following Biblical directives?

 

Oh, there was much more. But I've got to stop and attend to my work for the day. Dh is not interested in busybody-ing. He is interested, though, in trying to be faithful to the Scriptures, knowing that he is accountable for his position as elder and Christian.

 

For those who pray, when this comes to mind, I would appreciate your prayers for this couple with whom the minister refuses to speak, the minister himself, and dh. The stress of the meeting actually caused dh angina. This is a difficult time.

[GSMP]

I'm sorry that you are both going through this. I am IFB and can see the huge error in the way this situation was handled.

 

Stay in prayer and seek God's guidance for what He is leading your family to do........

 

I'll be praying for you guys.......:grouphug::grouphug:

[mommaduck]

As a Reformed sister, I'm speechless. The best I can say is to bring up up to your presbytery. Hugs and Prayers.

[Miss Marple]

Oh, Janie, this is so sad. I can certainly see that this 'minister' is a problem. Does anyone really know what his background it? Does this 'liberal' branch accept divorce? Do you know what this man's marital background is? Could he consider himself "not qualified" because of something in his past? How much support does he have among the governing body?

 

I'm asking these questions because I have seen so many organizations hire people before investigating their past. I have seen youth pastors installed who, once their backgrounds were known, were no longer qualified for the position. I personally know of a pastor who has moved from church to church because of infidelity. Yet he continues to be hired - how can that be explained?!?

 

I pray this situation reveals the underlying problems in your little church in order to make it clear to you what your action should be. In the meantime, maybe you and your husband can approach this couple as fellow Christians, outside the role of 'elder' (since there doesn't appear to be much support for elderhood), and see if you can help/counsel. Since scripture says to "bear one another's burdens" surely the minister wouldn't be able to stop you :-)

 

Best wishes

 

P.S I had to laugh about the 5-9 minute sermon. Our pastor recently extended our session because he felt he had so much to impart that he needed 45 minutes instead of the 30 minutes he was given previously!

[summer]

http://www.elca.org/Who-We-Are/Our-Three-Expressions/Churchwide-Organization/Synodical-Relations/Resources/~/media/Files/Who%20We%20Are/SR/Installations/Ecumenical%20and%20Inter%20Faith%20Guests.ashx

 

Your Presbytarian church has merged with our ELCA and a few others. I have seen these exact changes. They are trained in the business end and really do not care about the people. I am fed up. I have visited a few churches and found the same attitude elsewhere. I have given up and do not really attend church anymore.

[CAMom]

As a Reformed sister, I'm speechless. The best I can say is to bring up up to your presbytery. Hugs and Prayers.

 

Agreeing. I'm in a conservative Presby denomination (PCA). However, I came from an "independent" Presby church and experienced similar lack of care and integrity by the pastor.

 

I'll be praying for your church as well as for wisdom for your husband and how to proceed.

 

:grouphug:

[MIch elle]

I think you and your dh are doing the right thing.

 

May you be blessed in your efforts!

[Karenciavo]

Janie :grouphug: I'm sure your dh is in a very difficult position. As an elder isn't he able to minister to this couple without the Pastor's blessing? Acts 20:28 "Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood."

 

I will pray for you and your dh as you work through this situation.

[Cedarmom]

I am sorry, that is so hard. I am praying for wisdom for you and your dh. :grouphug:

[Ria]

I'm sorry, Janie.

Dh was an elder in the liberal Pres. church for years, but after the General Assembly 5 years ago we left the church...dh said he simply could not stay a member of such an organization. This year's General Assembly was a doozy, no doubt about it (dh still follows what the liberal denomination is doing). Our local church finally left the liberal denomination and joined a more conservative Pres. denomination, thank goodness, so we are back there again.

 

I'm sorry for what has gone on in your church. I honestly do believe that the problems start at the top...just look at the mess in the GA.

 

Ria

[Janie]

I agree, Ria. When dh unloaded about the meeting to me, my first thought was "No wonder the denomination is so mired in the mud."

 

And the GA this year! Oh, my. We keep up with GA news through other sources than local. We are waiting to see when the minister will tell the congregation about it. It seems that the practice of many PC USA churches is to keep the congregation in the dark for as long as possible.

 

Between the GA business and this local slough of despond, we know that our days of being a part of this body are coming to an end.

 

These dreary thoughts have just consumed me today. I genuinely feel in the slough of despond.

[Ria]

Oh, Janie, I'm so sorry. I don't understand what has happened to that church...I just don't get it at all. It just seems to have walked away from the Bible. So very sad.

 

Hang in there. You and your dh will be in my prayers.

 

Ria

[FloridaLisa]

We just spent some time up in Montreat. It saddens me to think how far this denomination is drifting from its Biblical foundation. But the Church is large, Janie, and I pray that you and your husband will find a fellowship in which you can bless and be blessed.

 

Lisa