Leaving CC Challenge program need advice

[mamasfamily]

OK - so we love foundations and essentials. The Challenge A program has been so disappointing, we are not going to continue with it this year.

 

I'm totally lost and need some advice. I tried to talk myself into enrolling into an online charter school (free w/ state money) but honestly, the demos of those programs are so rediculous. Look at this example for 7th grade:

 

1.

Which of the following sentences has a subject that matches the underlined verbs? (1 point)

• Donna and Terrell mows the lawn on Saturday mornings.
  
• Sometimes they argue about who will push the lawn mower and who will rake.
  
• He want to work in the yard by himself, but Donna thinks he won't finish everything.
  

 

2.

Which of the following sentences has a subject that matches the underlined verbs? (1 point)

• Stacey wants a new bicycle for her birthday.
  
• Deon and Harry drives to school together on Wednesdays.
  
• Albert play trumpet in the school band.
  

 

3.

Which of the following sentences has a subject that matches the underlined verbs? (1 point)

• Scott's family have a history of heart disease.
  
• He tries to exercise for 30 minutes every day.
  
• Amy make healthy meals that also taste delicious.
  

 

Ok, so now that we are all understanding why I'm so sad :(

 

I need a dual type program .....something that will teach my older kids but something that requires the academic rigor that we are used to. I have looked at TOG, but it is really confusing and I'm not looking forward to reinventing the wheel with a new program.

 

I do not mind an eclectic approach. One thing I really need advice for is Latin. We have been trying to use Henle Latin with CC but it is NOT user friendly. We are using 3 different books per lesson! So, frustrating.

 

So, can someone relate to this and help me out? I have to have something very good and secure. I am a planner, but I hate to plan (if you can relate at all). I have fallen in love with classical education, but I'm not classically trained. I am very sad because I want to love learning not just try to get it done.

 

I think I'm going to stop here because I'm too emotional to write logically.

 

Thanks.

[Brenda in FL]

Since you have already spent the money on the challenge guide and the books/materials, why not just continue it at home at your own pace?

 

It has the academic rigor, it is all planned out, and if you are doing it at home at your own pace, you can fold your other children in with the same studies. I am assuming that it is the pace of the class that is disappointing, or perhaps the tutor, or the group of students.

 

As far as Henle is concerned, read the various threads on using Henle, you'll get lots of ideas for making it work (assuming you want to continue studying latin). Also get either the Memoria Press Henle study guide (it includes an answer key) or the answer key from Seton; that will make checking the exercises much easier!

[angela in ohio]

What were you using? If you list it, someone might be able to think of soemthing similar, so that you don't feel like you are coming up with all new things. Also, is this for a 7th grader or what grade/age?

[mamasfamily]

OK so here is the problem. It is not the pace of the class. Henle has just been hard to use (I have the MP book with answers). But that is not why I do not like Challenge. I do not like it because for logic we do math only. We do have a rhetoric study which I actually do think is good for the kids, but it moves slow. OK, so we were supposed to be using apologia science and instead the kids have been writing small "essays" about natural science (a tree, a fungi, an herb, etc. and they will continue to have to look up spiders, whales and dolphins, etc. until the 3 week of the spring semester). Also, we only do 2 labs for the year for science. Ok, so then we have no history at all. Or government. There is no worldview until 11th grade! There is no study of great books. The geography is learning to draw the world, (which countries borders change over time so I see this as overachieving busywork), but the kids learn NOTHING about the countries (as a tutor you are not to deviate from the curriculum which is what I have been told), so at home we can do more, but what did I pay for? Ok, for math we use Saxon and at first I didn't like it, but actually I do think it is going to be better than the teaching textbooks we used to use and it had a learning curve with it. We are using Bible Based Writing (BBW) which I love and hate. Love the content, hate the way it is taught......but I will continue to move through that learning curve trying to love it fully (I wonder if I could mix it up with something else??).

 

Now this is my opinion, but so far Challenge has been the study of core subjects with some rhetoric. I do not feel this is really a classical study right now. My kids used to read a lot of books. Now they just do a lot of busy work (it takes 20 mins for science to be completed to the final draft for them, but mapping takes hours because they are not super artistic). My husband is also not happy with the program and rather than continue to the meetings, we are cutting our losses. Foundations is such a great program with visuals and music etc. Challenge A has been a room, table and chairs, white board with markers and books without any visuals. It is a super long day (8:30-4:30) and it is not motivating. They are literally trying to push through 5 days of lessons in that time and so there really isn't time for enjoyment of the lessons. At home, I find myself having to try to get through that stuff just to enjoy learning.

 

So, now that you guys have more details......I am really wanting so me advice about Tapestry of Grace. I keep going back to look at it because it really seems like we will get to dive in with detail all this. Also, I can have all of my children on the same topic at their age levels. Would anyone know if it would compliment the foundations learning? (I would like to stick with foundations for my younger ones). I'm going to finish using the Henle for this year, but in CC they start over in Henle each year until they get through the book (I assume you work faster each time) but I do not like that form of teaching. So, really CC isn't going to work for us in Challenge levels unless they improve some things. I'm going to stick to Saxon. I'm going to finish the Rhetoric they are doing. I'm going to start over with geography and attempt to actually learn something about the areas.

 

I believe we really need a strong middle and high school program. The kids LOVE to be together (they have known each other for years), however, I want them to love the work and social time!

 

Thanks for listening and for any advice ya'll can give!

[angela in ohio]

I taught Challenge A with my two daughters (11 and 13 yo at the time) in it. We are very (very) academic homeschoolers. I had to supplement a lot, and I agree with all that you say. I like the idea, but for Challenge to work for the greatest number of customers, it has to be not too challenging (hello, public school. :D) Ch A is grammar level in most things, trying to get ready for a transition to logic for the next year some. If your dc are already past that, it becomes frustrating.

 

Here's what I would do, fwiw:

 

I would follow the cycles of Foundations for the whole family, if you really want to stick with Foundations and make it meaningful: World History I, World History II, and American History. For the older ones, use WTM to choose works and then use the ideas to discuss and write from WEM and WTM rhetoric level. You can use a history text as a spine. We use Spielvogel.

 

For Latin, I'm not sure if there are videos for Henle at MP? If not, could you swing an online class? My dd taught herself mostly out of Wheelock's, but I know Latin, so it was easier. I can't imagine trying to teach high school Latin without knowing it (one of my problems with Challenge in most cases.)

 

If you like Saxon, stick with that. Easy one there.

 

One of the only really useful things that came out of our Ch A year was the mapping. My dds both ended the year drawing the entire world. Not many students could do it, because it required practice and time, but it comes in handy all the time. I use them as my walking map references. :D I did add soem information during class time, and I think you could do that at home and enjoy it.

 

If you like the rhetoric book, keep that.

 

Doing the BBL over the first half of the year wasn't bad. We had already done IEW for years, but it was good review. I don't care for most of their theme-based books, so I modified it a lot, though, to fit the original program more closely. Then for the second half of the year, the writing about literature was good, though you could choose more age-appropriate works than in Challenge.

 

Go back to whatever science program you were using, adding in the idea of memory work (memorizing the body parts and such was helpful from Ch A.)

[jamajo]

It's so funny how all of our experiences are so different. My daughter did Challenge A as an 8th grader with no previous Latin background. For that matter, it was actually her first full year of homeschooling. Previously, she had a combo of private/public school education. We still talk about that Challenge year. She thought it was the most work she had ever done in all of her schooling. She was so motivated by her classmates and tutor and we had no time to add in any extra work at home. I can see if your child has had a classical education from the beginning how your experience would be very different. We did MFW WHL after that Challenge year. Her self motivation and study habits from Challenge is still evident in her present studies.

 

This ramble isn't helpful to your original post...I just wanted to share:001_smile:

Would Veritas Press Omnibus meet your needs? I was looking at the sample online and it seems very appropriate for a classically trained student. Very challenging.

[mamasfamily]

Oh I'm glad you mentioned Omnibus :)

 

Yes can someone tell me if Omnibus or TOG is better for middle schoolers? I mean I read that TOG was lacking for that age group but better for rhetoric. I read Omnibus is good to start age 12 ish. IDK which is better.

 

I wonder if Omnibus would fit along with CC cycles?

 

As for Challenge A, ok see that is the thing. We have only been in CC for 6 weeks now! I'm not complaining there isn't enough work, I'm complaining the work itself is not challenging. I mean, the amount of work isn't the issue. It is the content.....it is just lacking. I mean they are doing Math, simple science, 1 3 paragraph essay, drawing maps, latin, and a rhetoric discussion (which for my kids they do rhetoric in an hour or less).

 

I really wish CC had an "entry level" and a "AP level". I do not think it is ok to cater to people who have not had classical studies. (I know I know I am not going to be popular with this opinion). I just hope CC re-thinks some of their strategy on this stuff. I really would love to see them introduce worldview in Challenge A. It is so important!!!!!

 

Thanks for not totally disagreeing with me on the content. I will say that this experience is not a total loss for me. It causes me to understand that for us, I like to be able to supplement when necessary....and if it isn't working, we need to be able to chuck it and move on! :)

 

Oh as far as the Latin thing, yea I need to find an online course. I thought about signing up for the MP one...stick with Henle let them instruct it. Your right, I do NOT agree with the lack of knowledge required to tutor CC. (not trying to upset any tutors here, it is just that a 3 day seminar can't make you an expert and they do NOT give you a good teacher's guide....but for those that are experts....wish you lived here lol).

 

So, back to Omnibus....anyone do a co-op with that? Or is it better with the online class?

 

Well, thanks again for the advice!!!!!!!!

[G5052]

In our experience, local classes are hit-or-miss. I live in an area with many CC campuses and three local groups that offer paid classes. And there are many other "by invitation" co-ops with just a few families using TOG, MFW, and Omnibus.

 

So much depends on both the leader and who signs up. You really can't just look at the curriculum, and the teacher has to be able to use the curriculum well. In our experience, I've been truly happy with only about half of the local classes we've done. The tough thing about chosing to do CC is that it is six subjects and will take up an entire day. Deciding to put it "all" (or mostly all) on the table with one person and one group of teenagers is a big decision, as you discovered.

 

Buyer beware, unfortunately!

 

P.S. FWIW, I like Challenge A, but each of mine has had a particular individual that we know handles it beautifully. Even having always been homeschooled rigorously, mine have been pushed appropriately and are very involved in the content of the material.

Edited September 29, 2012 by GVA

[laughing lioness]

So, can someone relate to this and help me out? I have to have something very good and secure. I am a planner, but I hate to plan (if you can relate at all). I have fallen in love with classical education, but I'm not classically trained. I am very sad because I want to love learning not just try to get it done.

 

.

 

Some ideas:

First Form Latin - you can get DVD's- excellent program!! Restored ds's appreciation of Latin

History of.. (listen to SOTW first if you haven't taken the time to do so) Ancient, Medieval.

Science- we have used a combo of Apologia/ Great Courses/Prentice Hall

Math- we hired a tutor. Best decision EVAH!

[newlifemom]

Omnibus is definitely a challenging program. Some may not like the content or some of the contributors, but will make you think.

 

Honestly, I believe any Latin program can work, if the person teaching it knows Latin. That said, many do not. Perhaps you can flesh out what I am doing with my 5th graders this year. As they are memorizing the declension endings in CC, I am teaching them how to decline. We've only just begun [cue Karen Carpenter :D] but so far, they are loving it and are starting to understand Latin in way my older did not until, well, I learned it. [Not that I am by any means an expert. I get the grammar of nouns/adj/verbs and that is about it at this point, still learning]

 

I've heard First Form is good, but I think you may need some type of online Latin that will have an instructor.

 

Too bad about the science. Not supposed to be that easy. [i know, I am a Challenge A Director :D] That said, you could definitely do Apologia General Science. A lot of the 2nd half of the book is a more in depth human anatomy.

 

Math is math. Use what you want, but make sure they get it! Never again will I put a child into Algebra just b/c they did ok. Never.

 

I would add some logic problems into the day as well. [We normally do that after CC is over for the year] It helps the brain imo.

 

I am using LTW and really enjoying it. Have you looked into that? It would really open up your 7th grader's mind to logical thinking and writing at the same time. You could continue with the books listed in the Ch A guide or pick your own. Easy Peasy. :tongue_smilie:

 

Well, there's some ideas for you. I am sorry it didn't work out for you and your family.

 

 

 

full disclosure for those who require it: I am currently a Challenge A Director, but will not make any money off of these comments, unless you came to my town and joined my program specifically. :D

[Candid]

If you only have D and R level students, Tapestry should be pretty straight forward. It will be more work than Classical (at least at the high school level). But you pick the subjects you want to use Tapestry for (History, lit, philosophy). But the books, assign readings and any questions to the students and make sure they do them. At the end of the week lead the discussion, move on.

 

There's more involvement with younger children so if you have a large spread you'd have to do that part as well.

[SonshineLearner]

You know that you may be able to just go to some classes, right? Honestly, my favorite part of Challenge A was the map work :) My daughter still has a decent memory of locations, even though she only finished half of CH A and wasn't perfect about her work... :)

If you've already paid for it, are you sure it's not worth sticking with some of it? Are you only 4 wks in? Anyone who knows me, knows that I think Challenge isn't what it could be... but there are some good parts, and I think you can make it work if your child is 12yrs old... :) Just a thought... (and like I said, I'm not even a CC lover :))