Math for bright 7 & 10 year olds

[ednkirstin]

We've been using Saxon math for several years, and I love it. However, I have 2 kids who are particularly gifted in math, and I'm wondering if there's anything else I can do that might be better for them. Don't get me wrong, Saxon is working great, but I wonder if they need as much repetition as they're getting. DS10 is currently doing Saxon 87 without any problems. DD7 just finished mastering multiplication and division with Xtramath. She's always had really good number sense. She could count to 1000 by 2's, 3's, 4's, 5's, 10's and 11's shortly after turning 5. She's currently half way through Saxon 3.

 

So my question is, do you know of any particular resources that would be good for these kids. I'd especially be interested in any online resource that may expose them to math topics systematically but at a faster rate. I'm hesitant to just ditch Saxon because it's worked so well, but I don't want to slow them down either, if they "get it." Any recommendations?

[Diviya]

If it's working and they are happy, I wouldn't worry. Just stick with what you have.

You may want to look at Art of Problem Solving for your older to maybe switch starting with their PreAlgebra.

For your younger, maybe you could add their Beast Academy as a supplement.

 

But really, if it's not broken...

 

(we used Singapore math, which I found really easy to compact/accelerate. I have never used Saxon)

[mathwonk]

the problem with saxon as i have said before is that it is targeted at test prep and kids who are weak in math. so for gifted kids i suggest trying books by harold jacobs. also a lot of people like AOPS. i.e. i question whether saxon is really "working" for talented math kids. it helps retain basic facts but in my opinion does nothing to motivate or stimulate creativity or real math thinking ability. mr saxon apparently did not himself enjoy math and thought of it as a necessary evil. this is not the sort of author i want teaching my mathematically talented kids. E.g. if you think your kids may ever want to actually be professional mathematicians, i would stop using saxon ASAP. or if the drill seems beneficial, i would definitely at least supplement it with something more interesting. math is not drill, it is challenging and fun. saxon is just drill.

 

this is just one man's opinion.

Edited September 13, 2012 by mathwonk

[wapiti]

but at a faster rate

 

Consider not just faster, but deeper, especially for the 10 y.o. I will also suggest AoPS Prealgebra, as well as the corresponding free on-line practice program Alcumus. (FWIW, there are also free on-line videos corresponding to the lessons). AoPS Prealgebra would be deeper and would likely slow him down.

 

For the 7 y.o., there are lots of ways to add depth, from switching curricula (e.g., to SM) to adding extras (word problems, problem-solving). There should be lots of new and old threads on these sorts of resources.

[SunnyDays]

I know people generally don't think Saxon is a good match for gifted kids... however... every child learns differently. If it's working well, and they're happy, I would not actually change the curriculum.

 

As others said, though, there are many extras that you can add. One resource we really like are the Zaccaro books, "Primary Grade Challenge Math" and "Challenge Math" are the ones we have so far. They have great word problems based in different topics, on several different levels in each book.

 

We also like Life of Fred here... it's story based math that makes a child approach it from a bit of a different direction. But I'd definitely start by looking at the Zaccaro books. :)

[SnegurochkaL]

the problem with saxon as i have said before is that it is targeted at test prep and kids who are weak in math. so for gifted kids i suggest trying books by harold jacobs. also a lot of people like AOPS. i.e. i question whether saxon is really "working" for talented math kids. it helps retain basic facts but in my opinion does nothing to motivate or stimulate creativity or real math thinking ability. mr saxon apparently did not himself enjoy math and thought of it as a necessary evil. this is not the sort of author i want teaching my mathematically talented kids. E.g. if you think your kids may ever want to actually be professional mathematicians, i would stop using saxon ASAP. or if the drill seems beneficial, i would definitely at least supplement it with something more interesting. math is not drill, it is challenging and fun. saxon is just drill.

 

this is just one man's opinion.

:iagree:

 

In the past, I looked through Saxon math textbooks and wasn't impressed with them. Too much drilling for my taste. We use Singapore math challenging word problems, SM Intensive Practice and Math Olympiad problems with my 9 years old. We also used Andrew R worksheets(a grade below) choosing only the most difficult problems to do. After them challenging word problems were very simple.:tongue_smilie: We are planning to use a combination of NEM and AoPS books in the future.

 

P.S. My daughter really enjoyed a LOF Fraction book as a summer fun reading material. Now she is finishing Painless Fractions which she also likes a lot.

Edited September 13, 2012 by SneguochkaL

[regentrude]

Check out Art of Problem Solving.

Great discovery based math curriculum for mathematically gifted kids that teaches the WHY, not just the how and goes way beyond the traditional curricula in scope and depth.

Both of mine started with Intro to Algebra after completing an abbreviated version (because we could not stand it) of Saxon 8/7. The prealgebra text did not yet exist; you may want to consider doing this one first with our 10 o/y.

[boscopup]

Definitely AoPS for the older one.

 

My oldest used Saxon in school. He was so bored. He used Math Mammoth when I first pulled him out of school, then we switched to Singapore at level 4, which was a good move. Interestingly, halfway through Singapore 4B, I checked the Saxon placement test for fun, and he would place into 7/6 at that point. I was surprised at the disparity that late in the programs (I expect it in the early years, but not at 6th grade level).

 

We'll try AoPS Prealgebra next year after doing through Singapore 5B (and we also do LoF).

 

Definitely look at Beast Academy for your youngest. The 3rd grade level is released. BA is made by the AoPS folks. They believe kids should have problems they can't do. If they always get everything right, the material isn't challenging enough. I agree with that, as I coasted through school and never learned to work hard at a problem. Even engineering classes were usually too easy. I had one lone optical physics class that I actually had to work hard to get a decent grade. That was the only time I really had to work hard, and I almost buckled under the pressure. I wish I'd been introduced to hard problems much, much earlier.

[Colleen in SEVA]

DS2 is gifted in math (the others are accelerated in math, but not gifted), and we tried MANY different programs (seriously, I think we tried them all!) but nothing seemed to be a good fit. I finally went with Saxon for him because he saw his older brother using it and it is something he can do independently with the Saxon Teacher CD-Roms. I add in several other things that he does during his math time with me (all mentioned in previous posts). Saxon has been great for him, for reasons that are too hard to explain in such a public setting.

 

Saxon is definitely a "love it or hate it" type of program, and I rejected it for many years because it looked too boring, repetitive, simple, etc. Out of desperation one day, I took my oldest son (who had finished Singapore Primary Math through 6A, MUS through Zeta, Life of Fred F/D/P, plus several other things, but still didn't have a solid enough foundation to move into Algebra) to the home school store, lined up several pre-algebra books, and told him to pick whichever one he wanted. He chose Saxon. He has really blossomed with Saxon -- it has built his speed, his confidence (no more hesitating about whether to change a denominator), and I knew he was ready for Algebra.

 

A long way of saying -- no math program is all good or all bad. If your kids are doing well with Saxon, then don't let peer pressure convince you to change! :) There are several good ideas of fun things to add listed above, and doing Saxon WITH one of those other things will give them a GREAT foundation to build on when they get to high school level maths.

[Beth in SW WA]

 

So my question is, do you know of any particular resources that would be good for these kids. I'd especially be interested in any online resource that may expose them to math topics systematically but at a faster rate.

 

My dds have online tutors for various aspects of math. Dd8 has a Cybershala.com tutor for Singapore challenging word problems/intensive practice. Dd9 has this same tutor for algebra. They are working through high school level algebra 3 times/week. Very effective. We love our tutor, Rachna. The results are fantastic. A one-on-one tutor is ideal for accelerated and/or gifted students.

 

Dd8 takes Beast online via Athena's Advanced Academy.

 

They both do math w/ Ben Rogers/Crewton Ramone for a fun algebra supplement once/week.

 

We do online classes for other subjects also. I am very picky about what I want and how I want to get there. Individualized instruction (by professionals) is my preferred method.

 

HTH!!

[ednkirstin]

Thanks everyone for the input! Mathscore.com and Alcumus look great. I'm checking into AoPS Prealgebra for ds. The samples I read look great. I also like the idea of it being preparatory for MATHCOUNTS, which he's planning to participate in this year. While I have loved Saxon to this point, I haven't been convinced about using it through upper level math. So AoPS may be the direction we take. I'll have to mull it over. :)

[NittanyJen]

They might also enjoy Life of Fred. We are a very strong math/science focused family, and my older son uses Fred now as his program and is thriving with it (he has finished Fractions through the Pre-Algebras and is half way through Algebra, though the physics book was only just published; we'll circle back and do that next year when we study physics).

 

I have also read through the Saxon books, and would probably not choose them for very bright kids-- IMHO, too much drill, not enough love of math, and not enough conceptual understanding of why we do what we do and how numbers relate to each other and tell the stories that they do.

 

Saxon is fine for the kind of student who just needs numbers to get a job done for them competently and no more.

[mathwonk]

" If your kids are doing well with Saxon, then don't let peer pressure convince you to change! "

 

I appreciate this perspective. I may well be guilty of trying to use my "weight" as a mathematician to apply pressure against the use of Saxon.

 

Let me say that you are always the best judge. My better goal is to encourage you to make informed decisions. So i only suggest that as a parent and teacher, rather than counting the votes here, that you compare the presentation yourself in Saxon with that of a book like Harold Jacobs, and ask yourself what the difference is.

 

Then test both books or others on your child, and see what the results are. Saxon was useful for my younger son who had memory issues with skills. But when I introduced him to Jacobs he immediately brightened up and said how interesting it was compared to saxon. He began to actually enjoy the material.

 

I agree that saxon reinforces basic skills through drill. I only maintain that it does no more, and gifted kids really deserve more. I believe we have a duty to determine what our kids' potential is and help them reach it.

 

It may be that saxon is a good first step, but for math oriented kids i believe it should not be the last. but if you do not agree and the comparison does not show an improvement for your children, then absolutely do not change until the evidence shows otherwise.

 

indeed i have noticed that after a lifetime of hoping to learn from others the answers to life's main questions; what is the best algebra book, what is the meaning of life, what is the best italian restaurant in new york, how should i behave from now on so as not to go where i deserve after death, how to recognize an honest mechanic, what's my password, how to cook chicken livers so my wife will like them, why does a mediocre basketball player earn 100 times as much money as a good teacher, is 488833399922888111973 a prime number, or how can i get more grandchildren now that it's out of my hands, ... i have noticed that all i can hope for is enough data to make my own decisions.

Edited September 14, 2012 by mathwonk

[NittanyJen]

Very well stated, Mathwonk.

 

The only person who knows what the best choice of program for your child is, would be . . . you, and your children. I've watched too many people on these boards ditch programs that they and their kids were enjoying and doing well with just because something else became popular, new, and shiny. One should never switch curricula because of what "everyone else is doing."

 

However, it does make sense to evaluate things side by side, to know what it is that you want out of a program, and see which program accomplishes your goals. Do you want to see more examples? Do you need something scripted? Do you want endless repetition because of a child's learning style (keeping in mind that there are plenty of free worksheet generators and online programs for that available as well)? Do you want programs that explain why things relate to one another? Do you want a program that shows things graphically, ore more abstractly? Do you want a program that is written to the student, or to the teacher? A homeschool specific program or a traditional school program? Do you want an applied focus (lots of applications for the type of math you are studying) or a program that just focuses on the math itself?

 

Once you know more about what you want and what your child needs, figuring out the appropriate program for your family is much easier. I have a 9YO who is gifted in mathematical ability, but cannot process busy pages and colorful pictures and text mixed together very easily-- Beast Academy would be a complete nightmare for him. The two-color US-Edition Singpore, however, works very well, as does the black and white Life of Fred. Both programs focus on conceptual understanding, graphical manipulation, and abstract reasoning, but in a carefully constructed manner, which is perfect for him. DS11 likes to work independently in math, but check in with me now and then for a conversation. So he works primarily in Life of Fred, and for "conversation," I pull out an old copy of Dolciani and have him "teach" it to me. Those approaches would not work at all for another family.

 

There is no "this one is best" answer for a math program. There are a handful that are known to be really good. There are kids who have done really well in some programs that get some bad press around here. The key is to match up your kids with the program that works well for them.

 

But I still wouldn't put a super bright math enthusiast through Saxon-- as I said before, I read those books, and I just see mechanics; I don't feel the love for math coming through at all.

[regentrude]

But I still wouldn't put a super bright math enthusiast through Saxon-- as I said before, I read those books, and I just see mechanics; I don't feel the love for math coming through at all.

 

The bolded was our biggest issue with Saxon: it certainly got the job done, but it was utterly joyless. Math was presented like cod liver oil: as something that is "good for you" and useful in adult life - but not as an exciting intellectual journey. It did not stimulate curiosity, and it did not impress with mathematical elegance.

In contrast, AoPS radiates the author's joy from every page; you can feel the excitement about math as the coolest thing ever, the curiosity with which a hard problem is approached as a puzzle, the marvel at the beauty and elegance. And these feelings transmit to the student.