Flag raising (or not) for Jesse Helms: This guy is my hero o' the day.

[GraceinMD]

II wanted to publicly thank you

 

Thank YOU! (You're 'practically SWB', you know!) I'm honored.

 

I was stepping out

 

(You certainly don't have to answer, and I won't argue with you if you do, but) I was wondering why this thread was making you uncomfortable?

 

Thanks again!

[sdWTMer]

What she said!

[GraceinMD]

[/i]I wanted to quickly clarify that the article I linked does not represent my personal conviction, but I thought it touched on the issue in a way that (to me at least) seemed to connect to our discussion here...

 

I'm glad you said that! I originally thought it did represent your views, and wrote (but thankfully did not post) a more strongly-worded rebuttal of sorts - and then thought, "Wait, that was Eliana linking. Hmm. I'd better re-read her post... Ohhhh! (delete, delete, delete)" Whew!

 

Thanks, and blessed Shabbos!

[Erica in PA]

I didn't read anything about him writing up a petition encouraging other state employees to revolt against the lowering of the flag.

He just said "I don't want to be a party to that, thanks anyway."

 

 

 

Well, actually, the article does say that he emailed eight of his employees, instructing them not to lower the flag. It also said that he was not the person who normally lowered the flag; instead, he tried to forbid the person whose job it was, from doing it. It wasn't just about him and his political views, although he certainly seemed to see it that way.

 

Erica

[Peek a Boo]

**sitting on the bench next to Grace**

 

excellent posts, yet again!

[astrid]

The issue, to me, is that the man felt a personal conviction, and believed that it would be wrong for him to do as his job was requiring.

 

...and I believe passionately that we are responsible to our conscience before the law, before our employer, before our parents/spouse/children/friends, before custom or courtesy *and* that as individuals and as a nation we must cherish that truth. Orders, policies, customs, traditions, manners... none of that justifies doing something one believes to be *wrong*...

 

YES YES YES! I totally agree, Eliana!

 

Astrid

[Oak Knoll Mom]

To me this is another expression of the growing trend of individuals feeling that the expression of their opinion is more important than fullfilling their obligations. It's petty and tiresome.

 

:iagree:

[Liz CA]

"Don't speak ill of the dead" used to be the standard because generally recognized that it is unclassy at best and a cheap shot at worst.

 

I think it is insulting no matter what his feelings about Jesse Helms. So, no I don't support what he did. He would of been the bigger man to rise above his personal miffs and honor the human being.

 

Now if this non-flag-lowerer were to have passed away prior to my reading the story....I never would have posted. ;)

 

Jo

 

Could not have said it any better!

When Mario Savio died, the president of our university who never could get along with Savio, refused to lower the flag.

The university where Savio caused the most uproar (U.C. Berkeley) not only lowered the flag but also held a memorial service in his memory.

The San Francisco Chronicle picked it up and our university president looked rather vindictive and childish.

 

This is not a time to express approval or disapproval. This is a time to show respect for the person if one agreed with them or not.

 

PS: For you young ones here: Mario Savio stood atop a police car in 1964 on the Berkeley campus and demanded free speech for the students who opposed the Vietnam war.

I came to know him well years later when he taught at my university. He held many beliefs I did not agree with but he was an extraordinary man who would fight for free speech for those who disagreed with him because this was more important to him than if someone held his viewpoint or not.

[Peek a Boo]

 

..he was wrong to impose his convictions on his subordinates. He mentioned several times in the interview about feeling it was "his" lab and so on. While I appreciate his sense of responsibility for the lab and its employees, I can't go along with him here. As Grace MD pointed out, he could have simply resigned rather than first issue the directive to his staff to fly the flag at full-staff or not fly it at all. That was not an appropriate request (demand) to make of his staff. I certainly wouldn't want my superior diverting authority and imposing his or her beliefs on me. So to that end, I'm in agreement with the majority here.

 

...

I have trouble with the concept of following a directive ~ even if one disagrees with that directive ~ based on the idea that it serves to honor an office. If I believe the office itself has been dishonored, it doesn't hold that I'd positively acknowledge the office-holder.

 

now that i've got a few minutes to review everything....

 

the tyrranical nature of the demand [as someone else put it] is my biggest problem. he bullied a buncha people into doing what he wanted. i wonder if NPR would be willing to/ has offer[ed] a counter point about that facet of the story?

 

I do think there is a difference in how you agree to react when you enter into specific career fields. The military folk give up a LOT of things that we in the civilian life would hold dear as "personal freedoms" --the right to question orders, "free" speech, and what you can do on your personal time. Many careers have so many obligations that affect one, but government jobs I think rate high on that list. It would behoove more people to really investigate what is required of one in the details.

 

In this case, i don't think it was about honoring any office, but that it is simply what is done in the job he took: flags are lowered at specific times. And as Elaine said, "heroic" is about putting aside one's personal feelings to do the job that needs to be done. It was NOT his lab, his flag, or his right to express his views with someone else's property. i wouldn't like it if someone came along and lowered MY flag just cuz someone famous died who i didn't like [and refused to lower my flag] and the rest of the country was lowering theirs. It's disrespectful of another's ownership rights and their free speech.

 

i do agree that blindly following a directive to honor an office is up for grabs ---unless you have promised to carry out just such a directive [esp as a superior]. In that case, it's quit quietly or do the job. You are free to exercise your conscience OFF the clock, but you are not free to trample the consciences of other people.

[Caroline]

I found this discussion very interesting. My dad was a government employee for many years. He worked on issues regarding farm labor. He often testified before Congress. He retired earlier than he had planned because he did not like the policies of a President who was re-elected. He decided he did not want to work for him anymore. It cost him quite a bit of money, but he stood up for what he believed in. I am proud of him for that.

 

Is this situation the same thing? I don't know. But I do like people who stand up for what they believe in. I think not enough people do this.