Compare HOD RtR to Biblioplan 2 to SL Core G

[Dassah]

We finished HOD's Creation to Christ last week. My daughter was on the middle range for the guide and found it very challenging. I'd like for next year to be a bit lighter and more joyful (translated -- more engaging history readings) but I do want to follow a 4 year Chronological history. CtC was very deep, plain and simple. Nothing was glossed over and somedays my dd just didn't have the ability to think down that many layers (and the academic exercise of it was not what my late elementary student needed). I'd love to stick with HOD RtR but I worry that it will be too similar to CtC's history selections. My initial plan was to go half-pace if the readings were difficult but as of late I am challenged by a conversation I overheard between she and a PS friend in which she said she "hated history". :001_huh: I'm so discouraged by this and would appreciate a little advice. This is a literature loving child who should have a propensity towards history readings. MFW RtR is out because our library is awful and I don't have the funds to purchase enough book basket materials (at least I don't think I can without breaking the budget).

 

We love SL but moved away from it after Core 1+2 because I thought the IG was burdensome. I now feel more comfortable with SL but I have no idea where to jump back in.

 

My other goal for her is to grow stronger in the enjoyment of writing. She doesn't enjoy it at all now after writing daily with HOD's CtC (although she HAS gotten very good at written narrations). I suppose my biggest hope is for someone to tell me that the history selections in RtR are engaging.

 

I know that next year, 6th grade, will be one of the last years where I can be less strict with all that needs to be accomplished. I feel like so far school has been drudgery for her and I really want to bring some joy and enthusiasm back. Please help. :confused:

[Sew happily ever after]

We hasn't used RtR yet but I have it and am anxiously looking forward to it for my seventh grader. It does incorporate IEW medieval writing lessons that would probably help your daughter in her writing skills. Personally I think the history portion looks super engaging and the the book choices are awesome. One of the books is mystery of history 3. It is used for quite a bit of the year. I wonder I you could have her read some of the sample of that book online then see what you think. A few other titles are available to read online at the Baldwin project. I think story of the middle ages and Gabriel and the hour book. I'm sure there is more but can't think off hand what they are.

[Donna T.]

CTC has been perfect for us for 7th grade. I know alot of moms use it earlier than that but I don't think I would want to. My son has loved all of it and really loves the extension books. I have decided that I don't want my younger son to do CTC until 7th grade... maybe 6th, but I won't feel any pressure to get there until 7th grade. The books are rich and require a depth of reading that I think is just right for 7th grade.

 

Did she enjoy the other portions of the guide? How did she like the poetry, the science, the Bible memorization and quite time?

 

Did she do Preparing Hearts before using CTC?

 

I think if I were looking for something lighter and more engaging I'd just go with Story of the World 2 with the Activity Guide and add in some readers and read-alouds from Sonlight. When we used SOTW 2 I used it alongside the portions of Core 2 that matched up with it. It was great. My son remembers so much of it, he doesn't really even want to do RtR next year. He feels like he got a very indepth study of that time period with SOTW 2 and Core 2. He loves HOD but doesn't feel like he needs to study that time-period again right now.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Donna T.

[Dassah]

Thank you, Donna, for breaking it down for me. ;)

We have been with HOD since Bigger with this child. Preparing was a wonderful fit for 4th grade (she loved it and cried when it ended!). CtC was not as good of a fit for 5th grade. She didn't really "get into" History until the 2nd semester and I would say she did not enjoy any of the History spines. She loved Storytime...every selection! Any historical fiction has also been very enjoyable. She really loved the science (all of the choices). The Bible time was just ok (even though I loved the Family Bible, she was just trying to get-it-done quickly), we both really enjoyed the Bible Memory CD, however. I am very, very grateful for that selection. She disliked Poetry (I really think many of the selections were too difficult for her) and she got tired of doing the watercolor each week. If I can summarize her feelings, she just 'got her work done' without much enjoyment after becoming disengaged with the history. She became a zombie box checker. I'm not sure that she really retained much of the Ancient World book. It was too deep and specific and she said everything ran together. I am beginning to wonder how she would have felt about it as a 6th or 7th grader. Do you feel like the placement chart is a bit skewed relative to the history selections? She placed squarely in this guide and scores very high on comprehension on Standardized tests and yet this was just not at all something that got her motivated to learn more or feel engaged in history.

 

Judging from what I've just said, and knowing that overall CtC was a fairly good fit except for that pesky little problem with history :closedeyes: -- would you move ahead with RtR half-pace or not at all? If we slow things down, I really believe it will be okay UNLESS the history lacks flavor (which is the big reason I'm considering something like SL for next year).

 

Maybe I'm holding on to HOD too much simply because I love, love, love it and wish I would have learned this way. Perhaps we should just come back to HOD in a year or two?! :(

Edited May 13, 2012 by Dassah

[Dassah]

maadrose,

I'm all ready seeing a theme... people are using HOD CtC and RtR beyond the "guided" ages (or at least at the very oldest end). I thought as long as I was square in the middle (and well within the skill set) we would be okay. I am really questioning whether the History spines are the right fit for MY child at the author's intended age range. Thinking back to Bigger, I felt the same way (that older children would get more out of the History spines). Preparing was not that way and I guess that helped me forget my initial fears. Charlotte Mason-ish titles ARE difficult!

[prairiegirl40]

I think half-pace might be a good idea if you would like to stay with HOD.

 

My 12 year old is doing RTR this year, but we went half-pace in the beginning. This was good because there were times I thought we would have to ditch the program. When this happened I took over reading to her until we got past the books she didn't like or got more into them, whichever the case might be. She liked Middle Ages, but really disliked the Withrow books. It took a while to get into A Child's Geography, but we are doing fine and about to finish that up. She is now going strong and not half-pace anymore! I'm not sure if we will work through the summer or stop and pick up next fall. She really wants to get to American History so that may be motivating her!

 

HTH

Jen

[1shortmomto4]

I used HOD RTR last year for a 9th grader - and I would be hesitant to push forward even half-speed after what you experienced last year with CTC. I know HOD is big on placement based on the first chart but there is just so much more to placement and the amount of work required. RTR is heavy and a lot! especially if you do the Shakespeare, poetry and art appreciation. The books are beautiful yes, but man, it takes a lot of work even for the best of readers! The first half of the year is like the little blue engine climbing up the hill - I think I can, I think I can and the content is not necessarily easily understood, especially for the sensitive child. My dd was 13/14 and I still skipped over some stuff because it just wasn't necessary (Carrie does give you notes in the guide to be aware of potential gruesome details). This is not a pleasant time period that is full of handsome knights and pretty maidens but full of all the saints and their stories of giving their lives to share the Gospel and they don't necessarily end well, kwim? Now, once you get through the two books you finally get to the MOH III Reader and it is a beautiful book - full of color and definitely a lighter read and tone - just like the train coming down the hill - with ease.

 

Now I must say that I love HOD but have been doing a lot of soul-searching myself about whether all that work is necessarily the goal for my kiddos. The books she schedules are awesome but when you start taking out this or that because it makes the day long it makes mom begin to think about the money spent, the tools not used, etc. I know self learning is perhaps the goal but I'm not sure that I want my 4th or 5th or 6th grader sitting off by themselves checking the boxes as they do the work and there is just minimal narration interaction with me. I want discussion and that is something that you don't necessarily get in the higher guides. I want to be engaged in their learning and again, I'm finding that the higher guides remove much of mom from the equation. (And this from the mom who had to read much of the history books because my dd has dyslexia!).

 

Just a different perspective here.

[Abbeygurl4]

maadrose,

I'm all ready seeing a theme... people are using HOD CtC and RtR beyond the "guided" ages (or at least at the very oldest end). I thought as long as I was square in the middle (and well within the skill set) we would be okay. I am really questioning whether the History spines are the right fit for MY child at the author's intended age range. Thinking back to Bigger, I felt the same way (that older children would get more out of the History spines). Preparing was not that way and I guess that helped me forget my initial fears. Charlotte Mason-ish titles ARE difficult!

 

 

This is from Nothing New Press about Christine Miller's Story of the Ancient World :

 

What stage / age of children is this book appropriate for?

 

"This book, like all the others in the Guerber history series, is meant for a child’s first introduction to the history of the ancient world. It was written with first graders in mind, which is the age we recommend it for at Classical Christian Homeschooling. It is too advanced for a first grader to read independently, but very appropriate for a history read-aloud to first graders, or any other children in the grammar stage. The content covers the events of ancient history and the Old Testament, and as such children will encounter sin, crime, betrayal, and rebellion against God, as well as repentance, faith in God, heroism, and many examples of God’s faithfulness to men. Although we encourage everyone to use the Guerber histories, including The Story of the Ancient World, with their children in the grammar stage, or first through sixth grades, we have heard from many parents whose teens read these histories with great enthusiasm."

 

Maybe I'm in the minority, but my 9 yo dd is reading CtC's history spines by herself and she's fine. She doesn't care for the Christine Miller book but she understands it. She's doing all of CtC but the painting part of poetry and we are doing IEW in place of Write With the Best. I also add SOTW to round out history a little.

 

Can you read the spines together? Or cut down on some of the written narrations and do them orally? CtC did NOT work for my ds who was 12 when he was in it. He couldn't keep up with the notebook pages but the reading was a breeze for him. I think HOD is wonderful when it fits your child but when it doesn't fit, it's drudgery. I bought it for my ds, sold it after using it for 8 units and bought it again for dd.

[Donna T.]

We took a one year break from HOD between Preparing (with extensions for 5th grade) and CTC (with extensions for 7th grade). I am right there with you... I love, love, love it. I do. But, we are taking another year "off" this year though for different reasons than you. I really don't know how to advise you, other than to say to pray about it (and I know you are!), trust your gut, and know that taking a year to do something else won't be a problem! However, taking it at a slower pace in the beginning wouldn't be a problem either. Lots of moms do that.

 

The CTC history spines worked well for my son (as a 7th grader). He found the books on Greece and Rome to be more difficult to narrate from. He had to ponder those narrations quite a bit more than he had had to do with the Ancient World book. The topics covered in the history spines in RtR will be heavy. I think they would be encouraging and edifying for a 7th or 8th grader, but I'm not sure about a child younger than that. So much does depend on the child though. There is a link to a sample of The Story of the Middle Ages at HOD's page for the RtR books. You may want to dig that up and check it out. Looking at one book in isolation may not give you a real feel for it though.

 

Were you using the extensions with her? That would surely be too much for children younger than the ages for which they are intended. Let's see... it sounds like it worked pretty well except the history spines weren't a great fit. And, the poetry and art weren't hits either. Well, my son didn't do all of the painting. One a week is alot. He began to skip some of the projects about half way through the guide. He did really connect with the poetry, but I can see where a younger child may not. Some of the selections are quite abstract.

 

HOD leaves little room for "rabbit trails". It's so highly structured that you feel like you don't have the time to pause and follow your own interests. Atleast I have felt that way. I love that about it but it's also a negative if you want to be more relaxed for awhile. I think it's probably somewhat expected to find some parts of a program that is so "complete and full" that you just don't like! There is so much to it!

 

Maybe you could take the first semester of next year and just be more relaxed. Find something in particular that your child is crazy about and do that for a little while. I bet just half a school year would make a big difference.

[Abbeygurl4]

Now I must say that I love HOD but have been doing a lot of soul-searching myself about whether all that work is necessarily the goal for my kiddos. The books she schedules are awesome but when you start taking out this or that because it makes the day long it makes mom begin to think about the money spent, the tools not used, etc. I know self learning is perhaps the goal but I'm not sure that I want my 4th or 5th or 6th grader sitting off by themselves checking the boxes as they do the work and there is just minimal narration interaction with me. I want discussion and that is something that you don't necessarily get in the higher guides. I want to be engaged in their learning and again, I'm finding that the higher guides remove much of mom from the equation. (And this from the mom who had to read much of the history books because my dd has dyslexia!).

 

Just a different perspective here.

 

Even though the boxes are marked "I" my dd sits near me and we discuss the books after each reading. My 13 yo ds also has a lot of independent reading and the first thing I say after he reads is "okay, tell me what you read" o "what do you think about that situation or person" or "tell me something you learned". Dd and ds both read different books but will have discussions with each other about some of the books they are reading. Always use a curriculum the way it works for your family.

[birchbark]

We did CTC last year and are finishing RTR this year. The ladies here have made some good points. Based on what you said, I would suggest taking a year off from HoD.

 

I think the history texts are more engaging this year (esp MOH III) and the geography shorter and sweeter, but there is still a lot of writing. There always will be with HoD. I myself have mixed feelings about it. It definitely strengthens writing abilities, but it also can kill the love for a subject when a student knows they're going to have a writing assignment always included.

 

If you decide to do HoD at some point, evaluate which boxes are really necessary for your goals. We are doing Rev2Rev next year, but I am cutting out Bible Quiet Time, the Music/Worldview box, the State study, and most of the History Projects. I was challenged by the big Circe thread (in March) that we were spending too much time and effort on history and none at all on classic lit and discussion. So I'm making these changes to accommodate that new goal. In the end, curriculum is a tool. Drop or change what is not working and move on.

[Another Lynn]

We used parts of RTR last year with my then-6th grade ds. Even though he loves history and has been exposed to "CM-type" spines since 1st grade, he did not enjoy Harding's Story of the Middle Ages.

 

Echoing birchbark's post about cutting out some of the side-subjects... I LOVE everything that HOD chooses, BUT there's something about hitting the logic stage years where so many "little" subjects didn't work as well for us. Maybe it's a time to see more forest and fewer trees?

[Dassah]

What a blessing it is to have a forum for guidance and advice!!! You all have given so many great points! Thank you, ladies, for taking the time to share with me how you have implemented HOD. Nearly every comment registered heavily with me. I'm not sure that I had given enough thought to the end result of the multiple writing experiences. The notebook is absolutely beautiful from CtC now that it is complete and yet dd doesn't look back on it with much fondness or excitement. :( That should tell me plenty about her perceived experience.

 

I struggle to find the balance between how unenjoyable a good education must be. Obviously, math is going to be unpleasant some days as will grammar. But, don't you believe that history should be one of those areas that kids can both learn AND enjoy? Could it be that it is just my dd's personality and she would have the same experience no matter the curriculum OR perhaps a CM style education doesn't fit her needs. If one of the desires in a CM education is to read literature that is complexly written or old fashioned in order that the child might truly be educated in language as they read, then for some children this might take the joy out of the history itself. :confused: Is that a fair conclusion?

 

On the other hand, the lack of seeing "the forest for the trees" might be one of the difficulties we are experiencing. I loved that comment and I am pondering that and contemplating how to implement things a bit differently. Maybe all of the sub-subjects ;) in the guide are overwhelming to dd and she just goes about each area as quickly as possible to get all things checked without enjoying much. I need a scientific questionnaire to figure this out. :lol: 1. Do you find the multiple boxes of your day fun or overwhelming? Y/N 2. Do you learn best from reading or listening? Y/N ...I'm seriously over-thinking this aren't I?!

 

 

Overall, the resounding 'take some time off of HOD' is giving me enough thought to strongly consider not going half-pace with RtR but leaving all together for a year or two. For someone who has grown very attached to HOD and who loves the neatly organized boxes, lovely notebook pages, all of the fiction, & science, this is daunting and sad for me. :001_unsure: So now what?

[mom&nana]

Sorry I can't help with HOD, but I just thought you should know that SL G is going to cover parts that you have already covered in HOD CTC. SL Core G is Creation through the 1600's. SL Covers World history in 2 years instead of the normal 4 used in the 4 year history rotation. It will go at a much faster pace, so possibly you could just consider it review if you decide to use SL?

[Pat in MI]

Could it have been the Bible history in general that your dd disliked? When I did MFW Creation to the Greeks with ds he didn't like it as well as other time periods because he was bored with always studying bible history. He knew all of the bible stories from reading at home and Sunday school so going over them in history was not as fun for him. Just a thought. I would hate for you to give up on a curriculum when it might be the subject matter and not the curriculum that is giving your daughter problems. Good luck in your decision. Sometimes finding the right fit is sooooo hard. :grouphug:

Blessings,

Pat

[Dassah]

Pat,

 

Hmmm....that's definitely something I hadn't given thought to until now.

I just asked dd about this in a round about way and she responded, "we are studying the same stuff in Sunday school and at home and sometimes I'm just tired of doing the same work over and over again".

 

Sometimes the obvious is hard to spot! :tongue_smilie:

 

I spoke with her about leaving HOD for a year and she began crying. She told me that she isn't always appreciative of the assignments but she really is proud of her work in the end. I think we need to do some character work on negativity. :glare: It appears as though the questions and concerns I started with are taking a different turn. This might be less of a curriculum issue and more of an attitude one.

 

Oh...the whoa's of parenting. :willy_nilly:

[MyLittleBears]

:bigear:

[Donna T.]

If you decide to do HoD at some point, evaluate which boxes are really necessary for your goals. We are doing Rev2Rev next year, but I am cutting out Bible Quiet Time, the Music/Worldview box, the State study, and most of the History Projects. I was challenged by the big Circe thread (in March) that we were spending too much time and effort on history and none at all on classic lit and discussion. So I'm making these changes to accommodate that new goal. In the end, curriculum is a tool. Drop or change what is not working and move on.

 

 

:iagree:

 

We do almost everything, except the projects. My kids just are not into them and I got tired of the groans. I think the projects are great, but my children just aren't crafty, hands-on learners. I had to learn that the projects are there for the children who want them or need them to help them to recall the lessons but they aren't necessary for every child, every week.

 

I also feel like we spent alot of time on history this year. I want to lighten that up some for next year. My boys have really loved the Storytime readings (which were actually independent reading for the CTC kiddo) and the extension books. But I want to spend more time on classics next year and more time on discussing those readings. I regulated alot of classics this year to "free reading" time. So, they would start a book with enthusiasm but get busy with school books and ended up not finishing the classics they had started. We also tend to listen to classics on audio rather than read them for ourselves. You know, trying to fit them in somehow without adding to their reading schedules. They enjoy that but I want them to be reading them for themselves.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Donna T.

[Abbeygurl4]

We did CTC last year and are finishing RTR this year. The ladies here have made some good points. Based on what you said, I would suggest taking a year off from HoD.

 

I think the history texts are more engaging this year (esp MOH III) and the geography shorter and sweeter, but there is still a lot of writing. There always will be with HoD. I myself have mixed feelings about it. It definitely strengthens writing abilities, but it also can kill the love for a subject when a student knows they're going to have a writing assignment always included.

 

If you decide to do HoD at some point, evaluate which boxes are really necessary for your goals. We are doing Rev2Rev next year, but I am cutting out Bible Quiet Time, the Music/Worldview box, the State study, and most of the History Projects. I was challenged by the big Circe thread (in March) that we were spending too much time and effort on history and none at all on classic lit and discussion. So I'm making these changes to accommodate that new goal. In the end, curriculum is a tool. Drop or change what is not working and move on.

 

:iagree:

[MrsMe]

We just finished up CTC and found it loaded time wise. And yes, we had huge time issues. While I agree with most everything everyone said and I won't repeat, at the last half of the year I ended up picking and choosing some things to do.

 

It's pretty activity heavy. Activities and art are time-consuming if you don't want it to look lousy. So we made choices in those areas to stay on track.

 

If you make it a 5-day it's easy peasy to complete at really nice pace. But I'll say at a 4-day pace there wasn't much room for taking your time. So in this, I'd say to pick and choose. We're not rabbit trailers, but we do like to not be under-the-gun and hurry up and finish or be stressed because we took 45 minutes instead of 30! And yes, we did feel this a lot! So with some watercolors, while dd loved it, if she didn't want to do it that week it was fine. Same with the history project. We still have oodles of projects, a nice notebook, and at least 16 watercolor paintings done this year. So what we don't have 25 or 30!

 

For me the time was stressful, but when I go into RTR, I've learned a lot this year on scheduling and I'm going to reschedule to 5-day so it doesn't look like we're behind.:tongue_smilie: When we did CTC, I figured any day we used th 5th day we failed in our attempts to finish which created stress and completing to purely box check. I'll fix that. I'll also pick and choose. But RTR doesn't look as project heavy as CTC was.

 

CTC is not difficult, but it is full, but I also find most the guides best for the last age listed on the cover to get 100% out of it.