Tell me about 4 year universities

[Jonibee]

. . . as opposed to 2-year colleges.

 

Neither my husband or I went to college. I've been homeschooling for about 20 years. My 2 oldest daughters did 2-year programs at the community college (although they were accepted at 4-year universities) and thought their programs were easy.

 

My son (child #3) math whiz, listened to Dave Ramsey's teen program in grade 12 and it affected him so much that he would not attend a 4-year college because of the $6000 it was going to cost him per year after scholarships. He has attended the community college and will graduate next month, having 1 year in civil engineering and then finishing 2 years of CADD drafting. He has the opportunity to transfer to the state university for mechanical engineering. But he's so jaded. Mom, he says to me last night, high school was harder than college. sigh.

 

He just doesn't know if he can stomach 2-1/2 more years of school to get that engineering degree or if he even wants it. again, sigh.

 

So all 3 thought college was easy. All 3 graduated/will graduate with 4.0 GPA from the (two different) community colleges.

 

I have been told here that maybe my kids are overprepared for the community college. I say, ya think?

 

So my 10th grader is finishing AP English with PA Homeschoolers and is doing really well! Plus precalculus, CLEP psychology, physics. She says to me, is college work going to be very much harder than my AP class? I tell her no. Her brother says he has never done anything as hard in college as what she does in 1 week for that class. again, sigh.

 

So we are looking at 4-year colleges. I am becoming really disenchanted with the community college. We live in the absolute boonies, town population 400, yeah, really. She is really LIKING her schoolwork. This makes her an oddity compared to her siblings. She likes to study hard. I hate the thought of her becoming just so-so about education -- Mom, you didn't need to make me do so much -- college is just not that hard.

 

So. (All my paragraphs begin with So! sheesh) Four-year colleges. Please tell me they are the missing link in my family. I am trying to prepare my kids for 4-year college because I can and they can. But so far, they have chosen (all 3) to stay out of debt (good choice), but then life happened and husbands and children and more college was not going to happen. I think life has a chance of getting in the way when kids start out at community college.

 

I had my February fry moment and now it's creeping into April . . . probably because of my son's comments and I am just doubting all of my choices and you'd think I'd have it all figured out by now! I could graduate my 10th grader now and she will be a 4-0 student at college. I know this because she is "smarter" for her age than her siblings were.

 

I am rambling now and I'm not even sure anymore what my questions are. Thank you for reading all this. If you can give me any advice whatsoever, I'd appreciate it!

 

I sometimes want to just cave in and say I'm done with trying so hard. Tell me it was worth it. I want my kids to say Mom prepared me for the hard thing, not Mom worked me so much harder than she needed to. (I mean, what am I doing???!!!) I am freaking out all over again. If I am wasting my time, well, frankly, I'd rather not do that and find a hobby or something, you know? sigh.

[elegantlion]

I'm not an expert by any means as my ds is just starting 9th this fall. But what are your dc's goals? Do they have plans for after college? Will an AA or certification from CC get them where they want to be?

 

I personally don't see 6k a year as exorbitant debt for education, considering the cost of some universities. I would consider if the BS/BA would give more options over an AA. Opportunities and starting salary could make the 24k or so in debt a worthy investment.

 

But you weren't necessarily asking about your ds. What are your dd's goals? I would start there.

[Candid]

I think one thing to do is distinguished in your mind that the difference is not between college and university but between community college and a four year post high school option.

 

Community colleges were designed to give people an education in a trade not in a subject that requires a four year degree like engineering.

 

I did the reverse of your children and took some community college classes after I had graduated from college. I was exploring options, polishing my nonexistent language skills. I took those classes in two different community colleges in different parts of the country. I also took some additional classes at another university in my state system because they were where I lived. So I've had a lot of personal experience in college classes. (Yes, I am a perpetual student and I like it!)

 

Yes!!! Your children are right community college classes are much, much easier than regular college or university classes.

 

I'll go even further: if David Ramsey if he told your son that community college classes = four year school classes, he lied. There is such a thing as quality in the world and quality is pretty important in education. Otherwise, why did you home school? (NOTE: I don't know what Mr. Ramsey told your son. I hope it wasn't what I put above. I understand that sometimes teens, even smart, sensible ones don't always have enough life experience to sort out some of this stuff.)

 

So if your son is disappointed about community college but wants to be an engineer then the good news is that a good four year university or college will challenge him. He needs to get in and he needs to select one that will challenge him because even in four year schools there are all kinds of levels of challenge. The possible bad news is that he may find himself thrown into difficult courses without the prep that other students at the four year school will have had in the two years he spent in community college. That may mean he'll have to work harder and he may on occasion feel like he is treading water.

[Julie in MN]

Tell me it was worth it. I want my kids to say Mom prepared me for the hard thing, not Mom worked me so much harder than she needed to. (I mean, what am I doing???!!!) I am freaking out all over again. If I am wasting my time, well, frankly, I'd rather not do that and find a hobby or something, you know? sigh.

 

You know, I think you have to educate with the idea that education in itself is of value. It's of value in careers, in your faith life, in your civic life, in your choice and availability of hobbies, in your ability to grow better plants, whatever :)

 

One of the doctors that my son interviewed this year suggested that one should not look at medical school as 8 years of drudgery and expense, all for the goal of becoming a doctor. If you do that, she said, you have just wasted 8 years of your life. Only spend those 8 years studying if you *love* what you are doing, if you find things you are interested in and want to know more about, if you are making those 8 years a part of your "life."

 

I think the same can be said for high school :)

Julie

Edited April 16, 2012 by Julie in MN

[regentrude]

Ultimately, everything depends on your child's goals.

If what your child wants to do for his life can be achieved with a CC degree (or without college at all), that's fine. Some professions, however, require the education only 4 year schools can provide. If your son wants to be an engineer, I would strongly encourage him to finish his education at an engineering school (our engineering graduates have a median starting salary upon graduation of 59k; the 6k tuition would be very very little compared to one annual salary)

If, OTOH, your son is not passionate about engineering and does not enjoy pursuing his education, maybe he should not.

 

I teach at a 4 year university and have transfer students form community colleges every semester, and they generally tell me that CC was much easier. Some of our students elect to take math classes at CC because they are much easier there - so yes, you are seeing a pattern. A good four year school will offer (and demand) more rigorous coursework than a CC. And yes, it can get much harder than AP level :)

 

In the end, have your kids examine their goals. Not everybody needs a 4 year degree - but I would suspect that in a field like engineering, a full four year degree will be very beneficial and open more doors as opposed to his current qualifications.

[Michelle in AL]

I think engineering will be much more of a challenge at a 4 yr college than what your son experienced at cc. My dd is going into aero engineering in fall. It requires 4 semesters of calculus + linear algebra, physics etc. Then you get into the "real" hands on engineering that leads to design classes culminating in a class where teams work to build a "green" plane (on CAD only). They participate in competitions to make a car more green etc.

 

We have a tutor who got a perfect score on the ACT & SAT. Chem engineering, esp cal 4, was still a challenge for him.

 

Like others said, it depends on your interests/passion/goals as to what track is right for whom.

[redsquirrel]

There is a big, big difference between a 2 year school and a 4 year school. If someone has goals that make a 4 year school necessary (such as engineering) then I personally think it is best to just go to a 4 year college to begin with.

 

At least here in NY teachers at a 2 year school only need a 4 year degree to teach. At a university the teachers have more education and more is expected of them. I know lots of people who teach at a community college for a little extra money. Heck, a friend asked ME to teach at our local community college. She told me it isn't that hard and is a great way for someone with good skills to pick up some extra cash. At a 4 year school most (not all) of the teachers are profession instructors. I know that is changing as education changes, but the expectation is higher. Especially if one goes to a smaller state college, you might be surprised to find that all your classes are taught by professors, and not grad students.

[Trilliums]

Some of the different factors mentioned in OP:

 

1) Difficulty of classes at a CC versus at a 4 year institution:

As others have posted, in general I do think the class rigor at a CC may be lower than at a 4 year institution, for a variety of reasons. I would not use a CC experience as a basis for determining how hard Univ level classes will be.

 

2) 4 year course of study versus a 2 year course of study:

When pursuing a longer, 4 year degree, students are able to delve more deeply into the subject matter. An Introduction to Civil Engineering class at a 4 year institution may very well cover the same material as a CC class. BUT, if a student is pursuing a 4 year degree, they will eventually take much more challenging classes, taking the material to a more advanced and detailed level. For Civil Engineering this might involve advanced classes in fluid dynamics, soil stability, hydrology (just guessing here as I am not an engineer :)).

 

3) Job/career possibilities with AA versus 4 year degree:

 

Out local CC does a great job at preparing students for entry level technical jobs. But, once in those jobs, while there may be some opportunities for advancement, in many cases, workers may find themselves limited in their job advancement due to education level. I am not saying advancement is necessary, but it is a consideration for kids as they are entering the work force. Also, jobs requiring higher levels of education usually equate to the worker having more input and influence over the direction of the work. Of course, this can have drawbacks as with that increased influence comes increased responsibility and in some cases, stress.

 

4) Extra cost of 4 year degree:

Taking many of the introductory classes at a CC can be a good financial decision, as long as the Univ accepts them as transfer credits.

 

Is the extra money needed for a 4 year degree worth it?

 

On average, higher education levels correlate to higher wages earned. Money may not be everything, but I do question a financial educational package that fails to point out the higher potential earning associated with more education. Here is a comparison from Bureau of Labor Statistics between a Civil Eng. Technician (2 year AA degree) and a Civil Engineer (4 year degree):

 

Civil Engineering Technicians

 

Civil engineering technicians help civil engineers plan and design the construction of highways, bridges, utilities, and other major infrastructure projects. They also help with commercial, residential, and land development. Civil engineering technicians work under the direction of a licensed civil engineer.

Entry Level Education: Associate’s degree

2010 Median pay: $46,290

 

 

Civil Engineers

 

Civil engineers design and supervise large construction projects, including roads, buildings, airports, tunnels, dams, bridges, and systems for water supply and sewage treatment.

 

Entry Level Education: Bachelor’s degree

2010 Median pay: $77,560

 

Source:

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Architecture-and-Engineering/home.htm

 

 

These are median pays averaged across workers of various experience levels, but still, the average difference between AA and 4 year degree is over $30k per year. Enough, imo, to justify the extra cost if it is an area a student is seriously interested in pursuing as a career.

 

ETA: can your daughter attend CC as a dual enrolled student? Perhaps she can complete high school AND pick up some collge credits. If she goes on to a 4 year school, it might cut down on her class load and/or costs. I'd definitely encourage both kids to obtain a 4 year degree. I see it as worth the time and effort.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Trilliums

[MicheleinMN]

What does your daughter want to do or study? Collegeboard.org might be a place to start the college search. My dd knew she wanted to be a classics major with an eye toward law school. She also wanted a school with volunteer work opportunities. She also knew she thought she would prefer a small school to a large one. All these things helped her narrow her choices. Ultimately financial aid decided where she would attend, but any of her choices would have been an okay fit for her.

 

HTH

[Susan C.]

There are kids in our area that came home from $25K-$40K/yr. tuition colleges to go to our local $8K/yr. tuition university because of going through Financial Peace (or they just needed to save money). So I don't think DR would be telling kids to not go to a four year at all (???). I told my kids that a car loan worth (under $20K total) for college loans is not too much as long as they get it back in their careers. They can drive junkers until they pay it off. A lot of jobs use having a degree as their first weed out when looking at a stack of job applications, so I am encouraging both of my dc to get their 4 yr. degrees. I might be ok w/dd getting a 2 year if the job prospects were good, but I told ds he needed the 4 yr. degree at minimum.

[Nscribe]

One of the best tidbits I received before attending college involved peers. At a four year university, those occupying seats next to you are likely to be just a driven, just as accomplished and just as well prepared. Some may be far more experienced and accomplished. Unlike being the first in a high school class, those whose work will be compared to yours were the tops for their schools as well (or may have served in the military, traveled extensively abroad, been from foreign countries, already earned some other post secondary degree or have worked professionally for years).

 

I have known kids who were truely rattled by finding their work compared to those hailing from equal or better prepartion for the first time in their lives.

[creekland]

I'm mainly just going to agree with what others have written... no, in our experience, community college classes are generally not on par with a good 4 year school's counterpart and yes, it would have been a better value to have gotten a Civil Engineering degree if that's what he likes.

 

But, as far as your daughter is concerned, have her take the ACT and/or SAT and see what her scores come back at. Then compare the scores of incoming freshmen at various 4 year schools (NOT all 4 year schools are equal either - some are probably like community colleges). To have more challenging content, try to get score to match. To have potential for merit aid (not all schools give merit aid), try to be in the top 25% of incoming students - just not so far into the top 25% to not be challenged.

 

Check with employers to see which schools they like to hire from (that can help assist with narrowing down college choices).

 

As others have said, not all students will need (or want) 4 year degrees, so it's not the right path for all, but for many it IS the right path/choice. For mine it is.