Differences between TWTM and Classical Conversations for logic and rhetoric stage

[A home for their hearts]

I'm trying to decide what to do for next year. I'm really on the fence about CC. What are the differences between WTM and CC for logic and rhetoric stages? CC just seems like a lot of money for only once a week for 30 weeks a year. I think I like the idea of it but I really would like to know what the differences are between the two before I make my final decision.

 

Thanks!

[AmyontheFarm]

bump

[bethben]

One big difference is history. You will get a lot more history sequentially in TWTM than in CC. They claim to have history built in, but it's only history in the sense that you could claim to have a history program because you read historical fiction and put those events on a timeline. These two programs are really completely different in my opinion. You will have to decide what you want for your child - CC will provide the community and dialectic discussion with a group of peers. TWTM will still allow you to be in control of your child's education with what they learn and how they learn it.

 

Beth

[A home for their hearts]

One big difference is history. You will get a lot more history sequentially in TWTM than in CC. They claim to have history built in, but it's only history in the sense that you could claim to have a history program because you read historical fiction and put those events on a timeline. These two programs are really completely different in my opinion. You will have to decide what you want for your child - CC will provide the community and dialectic discussion with a group of peers. TWTM will still allow you to be in control of your child's education with what they learn and how they learn it.

 

Beth

 

I'm not very familiar with how CC works. It seems like you have to enroll to get a good feel for it, and the cost is too much in my opinion for Challenge, even foundations and essestials. I know the money goes to paying for the tutors but what else does the cover cost? It would be nice if I would be able to truely understand how the program works before investing a lot of money in it.

[stm4him]

Ok, I don't have a kid in Challenge yet but my best friend does. If you want to add history to it you could just have them do one of the Memoria Press guides either by themselves, online, or offline (where they just get a syllabus and take quizzes and tests online which are then graded and sent to you....pretty cheap). I would evaluate what it is worth to you to have someone on call that can help your child with the upper level subjects when you can't (either b/c you are focused on your other children or you are confused as well). The community part of it is a big deal and there are just some things that are best done in a group, either online or in person. I love that with Challenge you are still in charge. So you can either overrule/omit assignments as you wish or add to them. You can add in as much as you want to at home and they also have summers to work on other things. Some parents struggle just to get accomplished what is assigned and others add all kinds of things to it. It is totally up to you. But for me the benefits far outweigh the money and probably if you weigh the cost of that to most any other program with a tutor in an hour by hour comparison you would come out ahead. I think the moms who tutor there work hard for their money and most of them do an excellent job from what I hear and have experienced. A lot of them wouldn't do it if it wasn't a way for them to afford the tuition for their own kids.......

 

HTH!

[Hedgehogs4]

Ok, I don't have a kid in Challenge yet but my best friend does. If you want to add history to it you could just have them do one of the Memoria Press guides either by themselves, online, or offline (where they just get a syllabus and take quizzes and tests online which are then graded and sent to you....pretty cheap). I would evaluate what it is worth to you to have someone on call that can help your child with the upper level subjects when you can't (either b/c you are focused on your other children or you are confused as well). The community part of it is a big deal and there are just some things that are best done in a group, either online or in person. I love that with Challenge you are still in charge. So you can either overrule/omit assignments as you wish or add to them. You can add in as much as you want to at home and they also have summers to work on other things. Some parents struggle just to get accomplished what is assigned and others add all kinds of things to it. It is totally up to you. But for me the benefits far outweigh the money and probably if you weigh the cost of that to most any other program with a tutor in an hour by hour comparison you would come out ahead. I think the moms who tutor there work hard for their money and most of them do an excellent job from what I hear and have experienced. A lot of them wouldn't do it if it wasn't a way for them to afford the tuition for their own kids.......

 

HTH!

 

Most of the students in challenge that I have observed have a hard time getting everything done that is assigned, and would never have had the time to fit in a separate history program.

[stm4him]

I think it could be done in the summer. It doesn't seem that intensive.......

 

That being said I've heard of several students in one Challenge class doing Omnibus on top of Challenge.......That's what I'm hoping to do :-)

 

Some people say their kid's Challenge homework only takes 3-4 hours a day. Others say 8-10. It totally depends on the tutor and the individual student from what I hear.

[A home for their hearts]

I think it could be done in the summer. It doesn't seem that intensive.......

 

That being said I've heard of several students in one Challenge class doing Omnibus on top of Challenge.......That's what I'm hoping to do :-)

 

Some people say their kid's Challenge homework only takes 3-4 hours a day. Others say 8-10. It totally depends on the tutor and the individual student from what I hear.

 

I'm not familiar with Memoria Press History or Omnibus. Could you give me an overview of these two?

[bethben]

I know the money goes to paying for the tutors but what else does the cover cost?

 

The cost for foundations/essentials is mostly to pay tutors and the director. There are also supply fees, facility fees (building rent and liability insurance), and registration fees which go directly to CC. For Challenge, a little over 1/4 of tuition goes directly to CC corporate, in addition to the registration fees that go to CC corporate, facility fee (rent and liability), and supply fees.

 

I think your best bet for understanding the Challenge level is to interview a current challenge director and ask to look at the lesson plans.

 

When I was a director, my tutors could have made more money working at Target for way less hassle. They did work hard for the money.

 

Beth

[angela in ohio]

I'm not very familiar with how CC works. It seems like you have to enroll to get a good feel for it, and the cost is too much in my opinion for Challenge, even foundations and essestials. I know the money goes to paying for the tutors but what else does the cover cost? It would be nice if I would be able to truely understand how the program works before investing a lot of money in it.

 

At the Challenge level, the majority goes to the Tutor. The rest goes to CC for support and development. (I tutored Challenge and Directed a F/E program for several years.)

 

The biggest thing to know is that your experience in CC will depend largely on the local Tutor. You could have an experienced classical homeschooling mom with years under her belt and classroom teaching experience, or you could have someone who is learning one week ahead of the students. You can't really know unless you interview the Tutor you would have.

 

In general, though, there is a big difference between WTM and CC in several areas. The literature, history, and writing in WTM are at a completely different level than CC, imho. You can look at the book lists for WTM here (scroll to the bottom for 9th-12th grades) and CC here (Challenge I to IV.) Math, Latin, and Science could be pretty similar, depending on what you choose to use with WTM. Another big difference is pacing, because your schedule will be tied to the 30 once-a-week meetings. Finally, CC offers more discussion opportunities with peers.

 

A good middle ground is to use WTM, but outsource a class or two (still cheaper than CC) in order to get the group discussion, but from a teacher with more experience in most cases.

[Sophia]

Can you go visit a class?

I sat in on Challenge A and Challenge I classes before deciding to take the plunge.

eta: Forgot to mention I do have dd read through a history book and do outlines of the chapters.

 

The outlining she does for the research strand has really made this second nature for her, so it's not a big deal to add it to her schedule.

There are no bells and whistles added to history~just reading and outlining; but it works for us.

I like the idea of adding Omnibus that someone else mentioned. Definitely going to mull that over for next year.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Sophia

[Guest REHABPT]

One big difference is history. You will get a lot more history sequentially in TWTM than in CC. They claim to have history built in, but it's only history in the sense that you could claim to have a history program because you read historical fiction and put those events on a timeline. These two programs are really completely different in my opinion. You will have to decide what you want for your child - CC will provide the community and dialectic discussion with a group of peers. TWTM will still allow you to be in control of your child's education with what they learn and how they learn it.

 

Beth

 

Hi Beth

Can you expound on the history comment? are they not presenting a comprehensive history program? What do you mean "historical fiction".

[Oak Knoll Mom]

For Challenge, a little over 1/4 of tuition goes directly to CC corporate, in addition to the registration fees that go to CC corporate,

 

Only a portion of the Challenge registrations go to CC corporate.

[bethben]

Hi Beth

Can you expound on the history comment? are they not presenting a comprehensive history program? What do you mean "historical fiction".

 

Look here for what they consider to be history:  http://www.classicalconversations.com/images/stories/FAQs/ChallengeFAQs.pdf

 

Then look here for books they read in Challege A: http://www.classicalconversationsbooks.com/chli.html  and Challenge 1: http://www.classicalconversationsbooks.com/chili.html

 

Now, these are historical novels and yes, you can talk about them and the history surrounding it.  That is where they are claiming their history is.  

 

Here is a quote from the facts page:

"So, if you are looking for a chronological history course in our Challenge program, you will not 

find it. If you are looking for a focus on the practice of writing and discussing and presenting 

historical information and history’s effect on the rest of the subjects God created, our program 

is perfect for you. We know you need to have a good history sequence in your head in order to 

think logically and present information effectively at the dialectic and rhetorical levels. That is 

why it is so important to teach your young students to memorize maps and a timeline."

 

Basically, in their minds, history is reading quality historical literature and then placing it on a timeline they have memorized at an earlier date.  Now, there's nothing that says you have to do history to have a quality classical education, but if you do want sequential history, you won't necessarily find it with classical conversations in the same way as TWTM.

 

Bet