dysgraphia in a gifted kid?

[brownie]

I'm not really getting any applicable info on the sp ed board so I am wondering if anyone here has a gifted kid with dysgraphia? If so, how was it diagnosed? what does it look like? what do you do about it?

 

I was told by our dev ped that it sounds like ds11 has dysgraphia. Believe me...we've dealt with OT, VT, ST....he's borderline not qualified for anything. He struggles with copywork....can never get it perfect no matter how many attempts he makes. He gives beautiful oral narrations but crummy written ones, both in quality and full of capitalization, punctuation and spelling errors. Nonetheless, his Explore tests qualified him for Davidson's. His productivity, especially written, is just exceedingly low, and yet I know I'm teaching him something bc his standardized test scores improve every year. I am wondering if the high st test scores have such a gap from reality bc they are multiple choice, thus no writing required?

 

DH and I are just so confused and frustrating schooling him at this point that we are ready to dump him back in the system and see if he can comply when someone else sets the requirements. He would be a good unschooled kid, but I'm not up for that. I am worried about him being able to comply with quality expectations when he is back in high school and college.

 

Brownie

[kht2006]

Dysgraphia is common among gifted kids, I think. Their minds work faster than their pencils. Great easy things to try are the readi-space paper by Mead. I buy it at Wal-Mart. It provides strong visual cues for sizing and spacing. Also First Strokes handwriting has a 'one hour to legibility' handwriting curriculum. It takes more than an hour for most kiddos, though, but it really helps as does their 1/3 space dashed line wide ruled notebook paper.

 

If you are ready to put handwriting on the back burner. You can try keyboarding curriculum as an instead-I like the first strokes curriculum. It is teacher intensive, but it really teaches touch typing and has hands=on activites that kids like.

 

After you teach typing you can try word prediction software to see if that will take out some of the glitches and make writing smoother. There are several free downloads. Just google word prediction software. That along with a phonetic spell checker (also free downloads) can make a huge difference in the quality of writing. Usually gifted kids can use these tools to get over their writing hurdles and then fade their use successfully.

[wapiti]

This article might interest you (includes a diagnostic checklist and recommendations; start reading on page 5)

 

eta, is he printing or writing in cursive? eta again, I see from the other board that he can do both. I second the recommendation for a neuropsych eval, if he hasn't had one in the last few years, to look for a possible processing speed issue (which you'd want to know about, with the spectre of college board tests not to far off in the future). Since his cursive is nice, albeit slow, I'd be tempted to make him write a decent amount of his daily writing (a page?) in cursive, to see if he can improve his speed. And, I'd absolutely teach typing if you haven't already, and require some amount of his assignments to be typed on a daily basis as well.

Edited April 2, 2012 by wapiti

[roanna]

My husband has dysgraphia and I am pretty certain he was a gifted child.

He returned to get his BA after many many years in the workforce. Since much of work is done on computer it wasn't as much a problem with producing homework. He never revealed he had it to his teachers until grad school. Some berated his handwriting and said it was messy. He was trying his hardest and is a grown man.

 

The real problem was his note taking issues. By the end of the day he couldn't read his own notes and felt frustrated beyond belief that he couldn't translate his own notes to the computer. For heavy note taking he remedied this by using his notebook computer. I bought him an iPod touch as a daytimer to replace his awful notepad.

 

All this to say that he made it all the way through a heavy grad program with dysgraphia but it was hard. From what I've read you really need to make sure he tackles this before he leaves boyhood. We don't have experience in techniques because we just deal with it. I write out all his forms and he types out nearly all that he can.

 

Practically though, he has huge calluses on weird parts of his fingers has a bad grip that causes pain in his hand/arm. Writing is painful.

[FairProspects]

He sounds similar in many ways to my dd9, who is gifted with dyslexia and dysgraphia. We only recently found this out. She has started learning to keyboard, and while she is still very slow, I was astounded at the difference in her output when typing vs when writing. Absolutely like it was a different child writing (and one who was many years older than the one who did the handwritten version).

 

:iagree:Start teaching typing and get the neuropsych eval for documentation. If you are concerned about college/high school, you will want the paper trail from the eval. so that he can get a note-taker from the accommodations office (this was a great side job for my roommate in college), or be allowed to take notes on computer. There is only so much you can remediate, and then you look to accommodations. It sounds like you might be there.

Edited April 2, 2012 by FairProspects

[brownie]

We do teach typing...he's at 20 wpm right now. But I have left him writing a paper only to have him spend 30min perfecting an introductory sentence on the computer.

 

So is a neuropsych the only way to diagnose dysgraphia? I would have thought an OT would do that? I have processing speed & working memory scores too. Naturally these are also confusing...1 subtest above average and one below for each :( At the time we were told the difference was possibly due to visual motor issues. We've seen that too at home and in ps...he has trouble copying from one place to another when he has to move his eyes, but when we took him to a VT dr, he was again borderline. In fact the only issue that came up was one I considered to be working memory and I wasn't going to pay $1500 for a VT who couldn't convince me the therapy was necessary.

 

So honestly, it's not sounding good that there's anything that can be done besides what I'm already doing. Another thing I now encourage is for him to record his narrations before attempting to write them. And we do more orally than I would prefer for an 11 year old. It's just that he needs constant supervision and I can't do that with 3 kids to teach, 1 of whom is not yet a fluent reader and also needs constant supervision.

 

Oh, we're also waiting on the results of a continuous performance test, but preliminary feedback is that he's close to avg there as well. I guess I need a neuropsych specializing in gifted but I'm sure that's a fortune and I don't think there's one within 5 hours drive of here. I don't want to go through that to be told a bunch of stuff I already know.

 

Brownie

 

ETA - thanks for the article. I guess the only thing I'm not doing is calligraphy...but it's still frustrating!

Edited April 2, 2012 by brownie

[galtgrl]

Have you applied to Davidson yet? If he is accepted they have family consultants that will help you figure out what to do to address some of these issues.

[MomatHWTK]

Any type of learning impairment is going to take time to remediate and overcome. If there are visual tracking issues, then improving visual tracking is going to help. Copywork is VERY difficult for someone with visual or writing issues. They simply cannot find, contain and transfer the information.

 

The problem is the extra mental step. When we speak we go from mind to mouth. Our thoughts flow out. When we write, we must be trained to go from mind to body action and out. If there's a disconnect between mind and body the thoughts get jammed up. Imagine an interstate having a crash during rush hour. If you are proficient at typing, you can sometimes bypass the physical and just go stream of consciousness from mind to fingers- which I have found to be easier than physical transfer to handwriting. But, even typing takes an mental extra step until you become very proficient.

 

It is entirely possible that he is working on one sentence over and over because he cannot keep the stream of thought going once he stops to perform output. If the thoughts are lost, then the writer has to start all over again. Short term memory and processing disorders are all going to impact writing ability.

 

IMO, your options are to meet him where he is or let the schools do it. Success can come, but it's not something that is going to come easily. Some gifts are harder to get open than others. :001_smile:

[homemomandnild]

Look into www.nild.net to see if there is an educational therapist near you. Diane Craft has a lot of info. on her website, I don't agree with everything she does, but it is worth checking out.

 

Keep working on the cursive, doing it big on the chalkboard can have a greater impact. At the same time allow him to use the keyboard or dictate to you when you don't need it written.

[brownie]

No we haven't applied to Davidson's. His IQ scores from 5 years ago weren't high enough to qualify. Since his work output is low, I don't have anything worth putting in a portfolio that would wow them. I honestly don't think he would qualify even if we retested.

 

It's like his goal in life is to be borderline qualifying for anything :) He might be 140 on a retest...he's not 145 unless we can address some of these issues, and maybe even not then. I don't think he's actually PG. Just his explore tests qualified him.

 

I mention the scores because it's just not like dealing with a kid who has an IQ of 100 and has learning issues. Most professionals even initially think I'm nuts when I tell them "how he's doing" because they want to know standardized test scores...as if that proves there's no issue. The dev ped told me that he has a 50% chance of "crashing and burning" BECAUSE he's bright with issues. I believe it...if we don't figure it out, he won't be able to hold down a job and yet he hates repetitive work (as do I...I get depressed when bored). He needs stimulating work, but unless he can get someone to hire him to sit in a room and think at this point, he's not going to last at any job that would challenge him.

Brownie

Edited April 2, 2012 by brownie

[MomatHWTK]

IMHO, a gifted child with output problems should be provided limitless input without concern for the output. Let him absorb information and enjoy it. In addition to the joy of gaining information, work slowly and gently on increasing output.

 

My personal experience has been that my child didn't wish to perform because he fails and he is painfully aware of that failure. But once the world of knowledge without the limitations of output were open to him, he was very happy to explore it.

 

I can introduce heavy academics, but I cannot pair them with a request for output. Obviously, we still work on remediation for this problem, but we aren't putting the world of biology and ancients and composition and art appreciation, etc. on hold while we slog away.

 

 

Hopefully someone else will weigh in or the accomodations they've successfully used for their child. We are only about 1 year into the process. It has been nice to see DS blossom intellectually though.

Edited April 2, 2012 by MomatHWTK

[fiddle]

There's lots of professional ways to diagnose dysgraphia (and ours was, along with being dyslexic and gifted), but honestly I think most parents know it when they see it. The weird spacing/height/width, "floating" letters, capitals in the middle of sentences, often fisted thumb grips, etc. We knew our daughter had dysgraphia from the time she was in K.

 

Unfortunately, she was in public school until the end of second grade, and it was a disappointing experience. We pulled her out of 3rd grade after the first month when her teacher decided my dd was doing so "well" that she didn't need any further accomodations (which is illegal- but we were fed up at that point & decided we'd rather homeschool). The accomodations we used in ps and now homeschooling are increased oral answers to tests, not marking down for handwriting, using Dragon Dictate to translate words to paper.

 

This year we've been doing the Writing 8 excercise recommended by Dianne Craft and it IS helping with her spacing, etc. We're going to be starting cursive now and then this summer learning typing through AVKO or a similar program.

 

The GREAT thing about homeschooling is that you can encourage the "twice gifted (i.e. gifted with a LD)" to move ahead in areas where they excel and accomodate/remediate areas that they are not as strong. We've had 2 different evaluations done and both specialists told us that the best thing you can do for a dysgraphic kid is to get them keyboarding for as much of their academic work as possible.

 

Also, I wanted to say the inability to copy from the board, etc. sometimes goes with dyslexia. In our case, our daughter is dyslexic but she READS several grades above her "grade level"- her entire issue is with writing/output/spelling & sequencing problems in math. She's in the category of the "stealth" dyslexia. Also, her standardized test scores in reading/writing were in the 90+ %- So, I agree that standardized tests can be faulty on many levels. The standardized test picked up her strengths but did not show her inability to write......

 

Hang in there. You're not alone & you CAN do this!!!!:grouphug:

Paula

[brownie]

Hey! Well finally one thing I don't think DS has! I don't think it's stealth dyslexia. Of course a lot of the symptoms overlap, but his reading comprehension is through the roof, especially on standardized tests. Other than an understanding of writing style, it's his greatest strength.

 

Also, while his spelling has always lagged his reading, it is still well above grade level. In school he got 100% on every spelling test with little effort. I have noticed that he either knows how to spell a word or he struggles to "re-learn" it. But he is a somewhat visual learner...not totally but somewhat. So he doesn't seem to rely heavily on phonics for spelling. Plus, I'm asking him to spell words from Vocab Vine A for 7th grade as his spelling list...2 grade levels ahead and no spelling patterns within the list besides common latin roots.

 

Brownie

[MomatHWTK]

Bear in mind that even with learning disabilities, a high IQ student is going to perform at or above grade level. That's the "catch." We can sometimes miss the glitches because the overall performance is so well. It's like comparing broadband to dial-up. No matter how bad it is, the broadband is going to look pretty good. ;)

 

I think the key for you will be to really study his performance- see exactly where the stalls come. The more you can narrow things down (as you have been doing) the easier it will be to target remediation.

 

If you don't school year round, perhaps you could work with him over the summer while the other kids have a lighter schedule?

[brownie]

IMHO, a gifted child with output problems should be provided limitless input without concern for the output. Let him absorb information and enjoy it. In addition to the joy of gaining information, work slowly and gently on increasing output.

 

I guess this is more what I was doing the past 2 years, and now I am starting to panic bc we plan to put him back in school in another year or 2 and I don't see how he's going to manage successfully. My panic is raising the tension between him and I, in addition to me having higher expectations for focus, quality and output. Plus having 2 other "full-time" students now is spreading me too thin to provide the attention it requires to provide the input and help with the output for my oldest child.

[FairProspects]

Bear in mind that even with learning disabilities, a high IQ student is going to perform at or above grade level. That's the "catch." We can sometimes miss the glitches because the overall performance is so well. It's like comparing broadband to dial-up. No matter how bad it is, the broadband is going to look pretty good. ;)

 

I think the key for you will be to really study his performance- see exactly where the stalls come. The more you can narrow things down (as you have been doing) the easier it will be to target remediation.

 

 

:iagree:Ds was in the highest reading group when he was in PS, and was above grade level in every area. That doesn't make him any less dyslexic and dysgraphic.

 

If you are feeling panic, I would really suggest getting the diagnosis and paper trail so he can get accommodations or a 504 plan in school. These problems don't just go away. Does your school district have an educational psych you can see? They can perform the testing too, and while it probably won't be as informative from a 2E perspective, it may be enough to get you accommodations. The reality is that these kids are tricky, and schools typically think they are performing well enough to not need help, even though they are not performing at their potential.

[brownie]

You all must be in school districts with a lot of money for LD's. We had an IEP when in school and it got us nothing. We're in a wealthy highly successful school district and I had to battle for every little thing. Their argument is that if the kid is passing, there is not need for an IEP, even with a diagnosis. We're lucky we got what we did - because I'm pushy and his need for speed mandated an IEP, which meant they got money from the state for speech because of his asp diagnosis. Everybody else I know got turned away. Our big accommodation was a list taped to his desk reminding him to put his name on his paper:001_huh:

 

When he re-enters school he should still have his IEP, as we have maintained special ed status while homeschooling, but I don't know what he'll need so we'll deal with the details when the time comes. 1st priority is defining the problem right now.

 

Brownie

[MomatHWTK]

We've never tried ps for any of our kids. DS get his behavior therapy through a private provider and the rest is on me. :) I have learned a LOT in the past year reading the posts on various support boards, taking in bits and pieces of a few books and reading some research materials available online.

 

Our therapist did say that if I needed to send DS to school she'd help us work out a plan. But I have no idea what the local ps offers.

 

FWIW, on the SN message boards I see a lot of parents comment that they can only get services if their child is falling behind academically. The problem comes up often with ASD kids who have social issues but can perform well enough to pass their classes. So you may face an uphill climb if DS is smart enough to get by. (I call it "Fake it to Make it") :grouphug:

[MomatHWTK]

Just a thought- have you considered online high school? You could still accomodate his needs, it would by default involve more typing than handwriting and you'd still have the ps experience? Is that something that would work for your family?

[brownie]

Our public high school is wonderful...I went there. We want him to go there. No matter how good a teacher I am, I can never offer what they do. We don't feel like we can send him away to college without seeing how he handles high school first so that has always been the plan.

 

We are looking into trying cyber-middle school next year to see how it goes. If it went really well, we'd be willing to hold off on public school until high school. If ps is a bust, he'll be right back out but we feel we have to try.

 

Brownie