Abbeygurl4 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 that they are sold at Vision Forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warneral Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 are you referring to God's sovereignty and his hand in history throughout the world or are you talking about "America is God's chosen land"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbeygurl4 Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 are you referring to God's sovereignty and his hand in history throughout the world or are you talking about "America is God's chosen land"? :confused: I'm not sure. I've heard the term but never gave it much thought until the "The Light and the Glory" controversy at SL. I agree with God's sovereignty but not the "America is God's chosen land" thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Here's an old thread discussing Providential history. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267734 I am off to read it in more detail. Then I am going to be watching this thread with interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warneral Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I just think it is important to differentiate it for Christians. Thinking that providential history is wrong, in my opinion is like thinking God as the watchmaker. Now i believe this whole "America is the new Israel" is heretical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbeygurl4 Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 I just think it is important to differentiate it for Christians. Thinking that providential history is wrong, in my opinion is like thinking God as the watchmaker. Now i believe this whole "America is the new Israel" is heretical I agree! And in that light, since the Henty books aren't just about American history they would be Providential but not "America is the new Israel", right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillsMominMO Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Henty was an Englishman. Very few of his titles even take place in America. True To the Old Flag is about the American Revolution but the hero is a loyalist. I don't think you'll find any hint of "America is the new Israel" in his books. Since they are out of copyright, you can find samples and whole books online or for a Kindle, etc if you want to preview them before buying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Henty was not providential. In no way do his books reflect a providential pov.According to Wiki he was a strong supporter of the British Empire his entire life. What you will find is that his books are formulaic. You read more than 2 and you will discover that his books all begin to sound roughly the same with different details, names and dates thrown in. Regardless of that, if you can stand the formula, you will be exposed to a huge amount of historical detail from the reading of his books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) Henty was not providential. In no way do his books reflect a providential pov.According to Wiki he was a strong supporter of the British Empire his entire life. What you will find is that his books are formulaic. You read more than 2 and you will discover that his books all begin to sound roughly the same with different details, names and dates thrown in. Regardless of that, if you can stand the formula, you will be exposed to a huge amount of historical detail from the reading of his books. Being a "strong supporter of the British Empire" doesn't exclude one from being Providentialist. Like many of his countryman, Henty believed the New Jerusalem would be built in England's green & pleasant land. The book certainly are formulaic. Same plot different setting. Unfortunately the theme of white supremacism (and the related belief in the inferiority of the "dark" races) abounds in Henty's books. The Anglo-Saxon is meant to rule the world. The dark races, being intellectually or morally incapable of ruling themselves in a civilized fashion, are rightly to be subjugated and ruled by the British Empire. That is the white-man's burden, and the will of God (according to Henty). Bill Edited March 19, 2012 by Spy Car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Being a "strong supporter of the British Empire" doesn't exclude one from being Providentialist. Like many of his countryman, Henty believed the New Jerusalem would be built in England's green & pleasant land. The book certainly are formulaic. Same plot different setting. Unfortunately the theme of white supremacism (and the related belief in the inferiority of the "dark" races) abounds in Henty's books. The Anglo-Saxon is meant to rule the world. The dark races, being intellectually or morally incapable of ruling themselves in a civilized fashion, are rightly to be subjugated and ruled by the British Empire. That is the white-man's burden, and the will of God (according to Henty). Bill So, where does Henty put forth these ideas? Edited March 20, 2012 by laughing lioness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 So, where does Henty put forth these ideas? The better question is where doesn't he put forth these ideas? The Henty novels are larded throughout with jingoistic British imperialism and racist attitudes. Unfortunately I just discovered that Kindle books will not allow me to cut and paste or I'd give more examples that you'd probably care to read. But here is one example of Henty being Henty when describing Black Africans in his novel Sheer Puck: "They are just like children," Mr. Goodenough said. "They are always either laughing or quarrelling. They are good-natured and passionate, indolent, but will work hard for a time; clever up to a certain point, densely stupid beyond. The intelligence of an average negro is about equal to that of a European child of ten years old. A few, a very few, go beyond this, but these are exceptions, just as Shakespeare was an exception to the ordinary intellect of an Englishman. They are fluent talkers, but their ideas are borrowed. They are absolutely without originality, absolutely without inventive power. Living among white men, their imitative faculties enable them to acquire a considerable amount of civilization. Left alone to their own devices they retrograde into a state little above their native savagery." Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imhim Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 When did Henty live? This could explain his POV very well. Attitudes like this have changed over the last 100 years. But they were very real in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 When did Henty live? This could explain his POV very well. Attitudes like this have changed over the last 100 years. But they were very real in the past. True. But the question is not, "Was Henty a uniquely horrible person whose attitudes stem from personal depravity with no cultural contribution," it's, Given his attitudes, should Henty be featured as prominently as he is on homeschooling/classical education reading lists?" Gangsta rap is also a reflection of the culture from which it arises, for example, and yet you never hear classical homeschoolers argue for exposing children to it. There are plenty of 19th century children's books which do not express virulent racism. There are others with racist elements which are of sufficient literary quality and historical significance as to make them worth reading anyway. Henty doesn't have historical importance in the literary canon. He mostly seems to be included on the assumption that, because his books are old, they are wholesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetted4 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I am puzzling over the comments about Henty being white supremacist...I read a few with my eldest son when he was younger and was impressed at the balance they presented (compared with many historical resources). In his book about Cortez (By Right of Conquest?) taking over the Aztecs, the message that, though we don't agree with their use of human sacrifices, they are otherwise moral, thinking, caring people just like we are was pretty blatant. Not sure how that is white supremacist...but it is possible that theme came up in other books I didn't read. With the quote above from one of the books, there are definitely times when Henty has a character that holds racist or otherwise ignorant beliefs, but ultimately it becomes clear that it is the character's beliefs, not the authors. As far as God's providence, yes that does seem to occur. In For the Temple (maybe also in the Dragon and the Raven), I remember there being times when the hero helped someone else at great cost to himself and then later on that person was able to save his life. The hero is usually a Christian, but is not actively proselytizing everyone around him. In some books he ends up converting and marrying someone from another race, but I don't remember any other conversions besides that one. In Cat of Bubastes, there is some discussion from a couple of the Egyptian characters wondering whether there might be just one God instead of many, but that is consistent with Egyptian history - there was at least one ruler who instituted worship of a single God (the sun God?) for some period of their history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 True. But the question is not, "Was Henty a uniquely horrible person whose attitudes stem from personal depravity with no cultural contribution," it's, Given his attitudes, should Henty be featured as prominently as he is on homeschooling/classical education reading lists?" And not only "featured," but very often offered up as part of a "morals education" by outfits like Vision Forum. There are plenty of 19th century children's books which do not express virulent racism. There are others with racist elements which are of sufficient literary quality and historical significance as to make them worth reading anyway. Henty doesn't have historical importance in the literary canon. He mostly seems to be included on the assumption that, because his books are old, they are wholesome. :iagree: Henty's books were twaddle of his day. His are not works of high literary merit. Henty is not be be confused with Kipling. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heart'sjoy Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 For historical fiction to read aloud to an 8, 10, and 12 yearl old, Henty's books have ranked up there with Ben Hur, Around the World in 80 Days, and Nathanial Bowditch. Henty's books are not ones I'd choose for highschool literary analysis. However they are often our go to source to involve us in the history and culture of that day. I'd rather deal with disagreeing with Henty's strong opinions than feed my kids books that try to have no opinion for their modern day opinion. I've also seen that I'm much more in danger of my kids picking up my habits and actions than any we read about in books. "Old"or "New" Neither is a free pass for great literature. Each must be weighed based on the purpose needed at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amselby81 Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 I see this thread going in the same direction as the D'aulaire thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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