Chrysalis Academy Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 So, the honeymoon is kind of over with FLL4. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great program, very thorough. I can't quite put my finger on the problem - I think it's too scripted, and maybe the exercises are too easy? What I'm finding is that DD and I are both kind of on autopilot with it. I can read the teacher's part, and she can do the exercises, but it seems like we can both do this without really engaging our minds. This is really disturbing to me, because I have realized that this is how she cruised through ps, too - she's smart enough that she could do the worksheets and pass the tests without ever thinking about the information, therefore it doesn't actually stick. Her grammar retention (i.e. definitions of the parts of speech, etc.) is not great with FLL, in fact if we weren't also doing Latin, so that parts of speech are constantly reviewed in both programs, I think she'd remember even less. But the answer for this child is not more drilling - worksheets and drilling are a waste of time, she just does them (correctly) with her brain turned off and retains very little. We just started Grammar Land, and it's been great. It has shown me how little she has retained from FLL, sadly, but it definitely engages her and I feel like she's getting a lot more out of it. Partly because she is analyzing real stories, real sentences . . . I'm planning on doing MCT Town next year, the whole program. Do you think this will be more engaging than FLL? It certainly looks like it. I'm actually wondering if we should maybe start with MCT now, rather than waiting till we finish FLL4. Or maybe shake it up by doing some KISS while we're finishing FLL? So what is my question - finally - ;)? I guess I'm wondering if anyone else has had this kind of experience with a DC, or with FLL, and what is the most engaging, least worksheety approach to grammar that you have found that sticks with a really smart, really verbal kid who will take a passive aggressive approach to worksheets (i.e. I'll do 'em, but you can't make me learn from 'em :glare:)? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 what is the most engaging, least worksheety approach to grammar that you have found that sticks with a really smart, really verbal kid who will take a passive aggressive approach to worksheets (i.e. I'll do 'em, but you can't make me learn from 'em :glare:)? Thanks! MCT in combination/alternation with Killgallon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 MCT in combination/alternation with Killgallon. Kilgallon grammar? or sentences? or both? Are you doing the elementary or the middle school? This is a program I recently read about here and have been interested in checking out, too - how do you combine it with MCT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BethG Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 You wrote, "..she just does them (correctly) with her brain turned off and retains very little." If she does them correctly....what isn't she retaining exactly? Trying to understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 You wrote, "..she just does them (correctly) with her brain turned off and retains very little." If she does them correctly....what isn't she retaining exactly? Trying to understand. Yeah, it's hard to explain. She did the same thing with ps math, too. I guess it's that she holds the definitions, explanations, etc. in working memory, long enough to complete the worksheet or exercise correctly, but she doesn't *learn* it - consolidate it into long term memory. So she can wizz through an exercise, labelling and diagramming all the predicate nominatives in a set of sentences perfectly, but then the next day when I ask "what is a predicate nominative" she can't say. She is good at remembering, short term, and copying a model, but I don't consider it *learned* until she can either define it, or use it when presented cold in a different context. KWIM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarrieF Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 :bigear: Would love to hear more about combining/alternating MCT and Killgallon. We have had a very similar situation with my DS who is 10. We appreciate the information presented in FLL (and WWE for that matter), but it isn't the greatest fit; we go on autopilot and cruise without engaging much. Last year when we "took a break" and did MCT Island series, my son was more excited about language arts than I had seen him in a while (and this is a kid who LOVES anything to do with reading, writing, grammar, etc.!). So, after finishing FLL-4 next week we're taking a break and doing MCT Town level for "fun". ;) I have JUST discovered/learned about Killgallon, so PLEASE, someone tell us more! :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BethG Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) Yeah, it's hard to explain. She did the same thing with ps math, too. I guess it's that she holds the definitions, explanations, etc. in working memory, long enough to complete the worksheet or exercise correctly, but she doesn't *learn* it - consolidate it into long term memory. So she can wizz through an exercise, labelling and diagramming all the predicate nominatives in a set of sentences perfectly, but then the next day when I ask "what is a predicate nominative" she can't say. She is good at remembering, short term, and copying a model, but I don't consider it *learned* until she can either define it, or use it when presented cold in a different context. KWIM? ahhh...I see. I'd look into Saxon Grammar and Writing 5 through 8. You could read reviews on the rainbowresource.com, cathyduffyreviews.com, or homeschoolreviews.com sites. We plan to use it after Shurley 4 ourselves. I grew up with it and our school blew the standardized testing out of the water in english (and math) all through jr high (and high school actually). It MAKES you learn your stuff. I THINK you can request a sample from Saxon. Here's one of the reviews from the rainbow site (I didn't go to the other sites yet...): "Cheryl C. from Michigan wrote the following on 04/18/2010: I found this grammar curriculum at a homeschool convention after not having any formal grammar instruction for my kids. I simply would correct their grammar as needed with explanations. My oldest child is 9 and has successfully completed the Grammar 5. My next third grader will start it this August. I thought that my daughter learned a lot about grammar, the text and examples were clear, and the price was right! I have not seen the way Saxon is producing the books now - my teacher packet and the student workbook were not bound but were hole punched. This allowed me to put the materials in a single binder for use - which I liked. This product will lead to mastery of grammar, and I believe students will understand the "whys" of grammar not just gain the rote memory of grammar." Also...on the homeschoolreviews.com site, you can't find it by typing "Saxon Grammar". It's also known as Hake Grammar. Here are those reviews: http://www.homeschoolreviews.com/reviews/curriculum/reviews.aspx?id=534 Edited February 6, 2012 by BethG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linders Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I can understand. We finished FLL4 last year and switched to R&S5 this year. In some ways, R&S is "behind" FLL - things presented in FLL4 are just now being presented in R&S5. So, you might think it should be a breeze, right? No, DS had forgotten much of FLL4. One thing I have realized is that R&S "mixes things up" more than FLL. For example, FLL will introduce predicate nominatives and all the diagramming for that lesson will be predicate nominatives. Easy to go on auto-pilot. R&S seems to vary the exercises more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 How far have you gotten with FLL 4? Stuff is repeated OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. So in the end she might have it all learned. My son has not forgotten anything from it. I can't say it is 100% like that with MCT grammar. I made some posters for the different types of phrases and have them prominently posted in our school room. Otherwise, I'm not sure he would have remembered them. But all the other stuff learned in FLL seems like it will be burned into his mind forever (which is what I loved about FLL...we used 1 - 4). Well, good point. We're halfway through FLL. And I see that there is a *lot* of repetition, so it's true that by the end it may have really sunk in. It's just last week, when we started doing Grammar Land, that I realized how poor her retention was for what we've done so far. I had assumed that more was "sticking." She does like FLL, she doesn't complain about doing it or anything, and she loves diagramming. It's just that I can see that she isn't reallly engaging with the material, and I'm afraid that will continue, because there is nothing in FLL that *forces* her to really concentrate. It's almost too well structured and organized, she doesn't have to work for it, so she cruises through. I guess I'm looking for something more engaging, more challenging, to make her work a little harder, because that's when she really has the little "I get it" epiphanies, and then the knowledge becomes hers forever. I've seen this happen with MM, and I'm looking for the same kind of thing in other areas, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyGrace Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I am having that problem w/ FLL3 w/ ds. But he is just average so it may be a different reason for this issue. My older dd is like your child. We purposely mixed grammar up over the yrs to approach from different angles-FLL1/2 in K and 1, Shurley 3 in 2, Latin only in 3, MCT Town in 4, R+S 5 in 5 and R+S 7 in 6. This has been an excellent idea for the type of child you are describing! My advice would be to move to MCT Town. You can't fake or fudge your way thru it; you have to truly understand it. I like that they mix it up so much. I felt that FLL and Shurley could be done by rote-MCT and R+S are not like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloggermom Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I also HIGHLY recommend Killgallon. If you want something concrete and spiral that constantly reviews you can also consider Hake grammar. However, I don't think anything can teach creativity quite like Killgallon can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nansk Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Part of the problem may be that in FLL the diagrams are already drawn for the student. I think it puts the student in a mechanical mode - just plugging the words in. I notice this with my dd. We diagram the sentences from KISS grammar and from our WWE1 copywork. When I give her a pre-drawn diagram, she rushes to start plugging in the artices/prepositionals phrases straightaway, without properly analyzing the complete sentence in the KISS grammar method first. If I don't provide her with a pre-drawn diagram, she has to pause and think about each word's function in the sentence and then decide where to draw the line for each word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 We've been trying out KISS lately, and it's much harder than FLL. You can't go on autopilot in KISS. I think FLL3 has prepared DS well to tackle KISS sentences, but KISS definitely makes him think more! The sentences are from real literature, and they include a huge variety of grammatical elements, some of which the child won't know yet, making it even harder. ;) MCT is likely similar (I haven't used it yet - plan to use Island next year). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 We've been trying out KISS lately, and it's much harder than FLL. You can't go on autopilot in KISS. I think FLL3 has prepared DS well to tackle KISS sentences, but KISS definitely makes him think more! The sentences are from real literature, and they include a huge variety of grammatical elements, some of which the child won't know yet, making it even harder. ;) MCT is likely similar (I haven't used it yet - plan to use Island next year). Good to hear, that was what I was gathering from the KISS discussions I've followed. Maybe my immediate short term plan will be to add KISS a couple of days a week, as soon as we finish Grammar Land. I still feel like FLL has value, and maybe if we just do it once or twice a week, it won't get so automatic. What I really want to do is start MCT now!!! It looks so cool! I did order Sentence Island, based on what I read here, and I think we'll do that and then jump into the whole Town level. I don't really care about grade level, and we mostly school year-round with a six week break in July-early Aug, so there is no reason to wait till "official" 5th grade to start it, is there?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UmMusa Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Yeah, it's hard to explain. She did the same thing with ps math, too. I guess it's that she holds the definitions, explanations, etc. in working memory, long enough to complete the worksheet or exercise correctly, but she doesn't *learn* it - consolidate it into long term memory. So she can wizz through an exercise, labelling and diagramming all the predicate nominatives in a set of sentences perfectly, but then the next day when I ask "what is a predicate nominative" she can't say. She is good at remembering, short term, and copying a model, but I don't consider it *learned* until she can either define it, or use it when presented cold in a different context. KWIM? This is totally my 4th grade DD, too. She and I fuss a lot with each other during this time, which is really getting old every single day. She can correctly fill in everything, but when I go rogue (off the script :D) and ask her what a predicate is she gets so flustered and mad and doesn't know. It leaves me quite perplexed, too. I'm actually so interested that you have the exact same issue! We're at Lesson 72 now, so not too far from the end. I'm not sure what else to do with her once we finish this book. I will have to research these other names mentioned here b/c I am fully unfamiliar with any other program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UmMusa Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I also HIGHLY recommend Killgallon. If you want something concrete and spiral that constantly reviews you can also consider Hake grammar. However, I don't think anything can teach creativity quite like Killgallon can. I went to the link to amazon and looked at the first book that showed up: is that the one you were referring to for the 4th/5th grade level? Does that one workbook (Sentence Composing http://www.amazon.com/Sentence-Composing-Elementary-School-Sentences/dp/0325002231/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328586693&sr=1-1#_, I think it was) cover grammar for the grade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UmMusa Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I bought the book :D. I love this place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarrieF Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 :iagree:I love this community, too! (And, I bought BOTH elementary level books from Killgallon! LOL) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 I am definitely hovering over the "buy" button with Kilgallon too . . . but, Sentence Island arrived yesterday!!!! I had decided to do just this book before starting on the whole Town level. I'm really glad I did. I think this will be just the right amount of grammar review, and review in the context of reading, which works well for DD. So, I think I decided to: 1) finish GrammarLand - it's great!, 2) Keep going with FLL, but either double it up with GL or just do it once or twice a week (it usually just takes 5-10 min. for a lesson) so that it doesn't become so routine; 3) Read the Bruce Cleary books for fun & review (got them coming from the library); and 4) read sentence island and start, gently, with 4-level sentence analysis), and 5) If there is a gap between finishing GL finishing SI, start KISS, and see how we like that. I'm definitely planning on doing MCT Town next year, but since we take a 6-week vacation in July-Aug, I will wait till we come back to start Grammar Town. I am still thinking about Kilgallon, though . . . :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UmMusa Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Ok, help me out. I've read a lot about MCT here but I've never known what it was. Is there a link to a website where I can figure out all this Island and Town talk! Is it a grammar program? Is it something I can use for 5th grade next year since we'll be done with WWE and FLL? Help a tired 'ol mom out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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