Julie in MN Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I'd like some advice on a spring math class after my son finishes Algebra 2. He just gets Alg2 and is moving along at a good pace. I hate to have him lose momentum by spending 6 months with no math before next fall. Some ideas spinning around in my head: 1. Statistics. It doesn't seem like he's gotten a lot of stats so far. However, when I got out a little probability and statistics unit I have (for public school teachers), and asked him about the very first section (probability when flipping 2 coins), he was like, Duh, mom, half times a half is a fourth... I am sure there are more Statistics options from regular textbook companies, but I would expect them to be full-year courses, longer than I need, and I think we'd lose a lot of momentum as I tried to pick & choose sections he needs. I did email AoPS and (although I was annoyed by their superiority syndrome) they did give me a recommendation: do both "Introduction to Counting & Probability" and "Algebra 3" before he starts precalc next fall. That sounds like a bit more of a load than I want to put on him. He's not behind in math, after all. He does like math, but he's a lackadaisical, way-youngest child. So I looked at just their C&P book. It seems like some of it would be easy for him, and a lot of the rest might be weighted towards "interesting tricks" that only work in a few situations? I mean, working with numbers every-which-way is always useful, but my son is already on a little math team (they are taking the AMC this week). Anyways, I also looked at AoPS's "Intermediate" C&P and it looks like it would challenge him, but not sure if I need to push him to do that, and AoPS didn't suggest that. He likes video, and I see that AoPS offers video classes which my son would like (a little pricey for us as an extra) as well as just free video lessons. Hmm... I've also looked at LOF Statistics, but after my son's experience with chatty Mr. Jacobs (last year's Geometry), I can't imagine he would do well with LOF's chattiness? He was great with Singapore word problems but when it's just general chatting, he likes to say, "I get it. Where's the math?" (Also ruled out Jacobs' Mathematics A Human Endeavor for this reason.) Barron's E-Z Statistics is likely to also be chatty, but might be more doable, not sure? I know TTC has Statistics videos, which he would love, but my goal is to have him working problems, not just watching. I expect the professor recommends a college textbook in the TTC guide, but that would be a lot to weed through. Should I continue to pursue this topic for the spring? Are there better options than these for doing a few months of statistics/probability? 2. Algebra 3. I actually am not really sure what Alg.3 is. It was something AoPS mentioned. I had the idea it was for folks who needed a third year of Algebra in college :confused: My son likes algebra, but he has a really solid base in it, so does he need more?: 3. Start precalc? I've heard that some precalc programs can be done over more than one year. I haven't done precalc with my kids yet (oldest did it independent study at public school). MFW, which I use, recommends Saxon Advanced Math, along with DIVE. My son's math coach also thinks Saxon is the most challenging he's used, and as an example he coached a kid who tested into Calc. 3 after Saxon (not sure he went that direction, but just his reasoning there). However, I've heard it's hard to jump into Saxon this late in the game. I have researched a LOT of precalc classes (I'll save that for another thread), but is precalc something I should go ahead and start this spring? Sorry if that was too much to read; *lengthy* seems to be the only way I can express myself. And thanks for any random thoughts you throw my way, Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Julie of KY Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I think any of the choices of Statistics, AoPS Counting and Probability or AoPS Algebra 3 (the Intermediate Algebra textbook) would be a good choice. The AoPS Counting and Probability book could easily be done over spring/summer with a break as well. It has some of what people will call statitics, but it is not at all a statistics course. I think it is fun and much of it is never covered in traditional math courses. I certainly wouldn't recommend the Intermediate Counting and Probablility course until the intro is done unless a lot of work with basic combinatorics has been done elsewhere. Much of the Intermediate Algebra book by AoPS (Algebra 3) is algebra topics not otherwise covered as well as some pre-calc. Statistics is always a good option, but I don't have a great recommendation of what to use for statistics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Julie in MN Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 it is not at all a statistics course. I certainly wouldn't recommend the Intermediate Counting and Probablility course until the intro is done unless a lot of work with basic combinatorics has been done elsewhere. Both of those in particular are good to know, thanks. I think I was thinking the "Probability" was pretty much the same skill as "Statistics," but apparently not. And although my son has done a lot of problems over the years from MathCounts and AMC (which seem to be the focus of AoPS), I don't think either of us knows the vocabulary of "combinatorics," so I'll skip the idea of Intermediate C&P. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

regentrude Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 2. Algebra 3. I actually am not really sure what Alg.3 is. It was something AoPS mentioned. I had the idea it was for folks who needed a third year of Algebra in college :confused: My son likes algebra, but he has a really solid base in it, so does he need more?: AoPS runs algebra 1, 2 and 3 classes because their Intro to Algebra book is way more than a normal algebra 1 course, and they split it in half, making it algebra 1 and 2. Algebra 3 would be their Intermediate Algebra text, which contains stuff beyond a traditional algebra 2 program (including some math relevant mostly to competitions), as well as some topics typically taught in precalculus. From your post, it is not entirely clear to me what he is using for algebra 2: the AoPS alg 2 class? The Intermediate Algebra text? Some traditional algebra 2 program? The answer would depend on that. If he has not done it and wants to use AoPS, I would follow up with the Intermediate algebra text; if he has, I'd move on to precalculus. I prefer saving statistics for after calculus because you can do a lot more if you have calc before stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Julie in MN Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 AoPS runs algebra 1, 2 and 3 classes because their Intro to Algebra book is way more than a normal algebra 1 course, and they split it in half, making it algebra 1 and 2. Algebra 3 would be their Intermediate Algebra text, which contains stuff beyond a traditional algebra 2 program (including some math relevant mostly to competitions), as well as some topics typically taught in precalculus. From your post, it is not entirely clear to me what he is using for algebra 2: the AoPS alg 2 class? The Intermediate Algebra text? Some traditional algebra 2 program? The answer would depend on that. If he has not done it and wants to use AoPS, I would follow up with the Intermediate algebra text; if he has, I'd move on to precalculus. I prefer saving statistics for after calculus because you can do a lot more if you have calc before stats. Reid is finishing up Math Relief Algebra 2. I didn't mention it because I don't think a lot of folks have a lot of experience with it. AoPS seemed to assume it was "beneath" them, which irritated me to no end. I'll just say that his algebra skills are very solid and probably more advanced than most kids I've known except the truly gifted genius type (and I've known plenty on the MathCounts/AMC track, which is their pride and joy). My son does also like math. The only thing we fight is his lack of ambition (causing a lack of attention to detail). He is not *asking* to AoPS -- he has no idea what it is :) But he is asking me what he's going to do after he finishes up his Algebra 2. I was just thinking that the short AoPS class seemed as close as I have found in terms of a spring class that was a new topic but still mathy (and not chatty). I am not really thinking of doing precalc or calc through AoPS, although who knows. Like I mentioned, he already does a lot of the MathCounts/AMC type problems on his math team and I'm not necessarily seeing the value in a lot more time on that? Your point is interesting regarding statistics after calculus. I guess I was thinking statistics would be "easier" and maybe even "lose ground" in math "muscles" if he stopped to do it before college calculus (if he follows the path of his older brother, he'll do calculus in high school and start calculus over in college, just to be stronger)? But my view of stats is partly based on the fact that I took honors college statistics with only a background of high school Algebra 2/Trig, with no interested or experience in calculus or precalc. I guess I always liked to do things my own way :tongue_smilie: Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Teachin'Mine Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) Saxon's Advanced Math is a great pre-calc text. If he'd like to do that, then I would have him work through Saxon's Algebra II this spring. He should be able to move quickly through what he's already learned, but will become familiar with Saxon's way of setting up problems and can fill in gaps - if any. I'm not sure what your son did for algebra 2, but could he just go into the same program's pre-calculus text now? Algebra 2 flows really nicely into trig and pre-calculus, so personally I wouldn't want to interrupt the flow with statistics. Then again, I'd still like to fit statistics into our schedule, but don't know where either. :tongue_smilie: ETA: I just saw that you did Math Relief, which I know nothing about. But from what you said, it's possible that another algebra 2 program would cover more. So based on that, I'd have him "repeat" algebra 2 with whatever program you'd like him to continue into pre-calculus with. If Saxon Advanced Math, then do Saxon's Algebra 2. If AoPS, then follow Regentrude's suggestions. : ) Edited February 6, 2012 by Teachin'Mine 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

regentrude Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Your point is interesting regarding statistics after calculus. I guess I was thinking statistics would be "easier" and maybe even "lose ground" in math "muscles" if he stopped to do it before college calculus (if he follows the path of his older brother, he'll do calculus in high school and start calculus over in college, just to be stronger)? But my view of stats is partly based on the fact that I took honors college statistics with only a background of high school Algebra 2/Trig, with no interested or experience in calculus or precalc. I guess I always liked to do things my own way :tongue_smilie: There are different kinds of statistics courses. You can do a lot without calc - but then there are some where you have to integrate nonconstant probability distributions which, obviously, requires calculus. Nothing wrong with "normal" stats... I guess *I* am the one who likes things her own way, LOL. This said, I agree with Teachin'Mine that it might be easiest not to disrupt the flow and move from algebra 2 towards precalc. Instead of taking the AoPS class, he could use their book to flesh out his algebra 2 with additional topics that had not been covered in his program. Or just start whatever precalculus program you had in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

MBM Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Would your son be interested in taking AP Statistics? I believe it can be begun after Algebra 2, usually concurrently with precalc. I believe the AP class was designed so that more non-STEM students would take it. I'm not 100% sure about this, though. Anyway, your son could work on AP Stats for 6 months and then finish up the rest and review while studying precalculus next year. If you're interested, there are a number of excellent old posts about AP Stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Julie in MN Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 Saxon's Advanced Math is a great pre-calc text. If he'd like to do that' date=' then I would have him work through Saxon's Algebra II this spring. ETA: I just saw that you did Math Relief, which I know nothing about. But from what you said, it's possible that another algebra 2 program would cover more. So based on that, I'd have him "repeat" algebra 2 with whatever program you'd like him to continue into pre-calculus with. [/quote'] You have a good point that getting used to a new math program might be something we could do in the spring. And that thinking about what he'll use for precalc would be best -- ugh, that research is causing my brain to explode! However, I must not be making sense tonight, because I definitely think Math Relief has taken him as far or farther than any other Algebra 2 I've seen -- and I ignored the advice from the AoPS guy on that, since he is talking about something he's never even heard of. I guess *I* am the one who likes things her own way, LOL. This said, I agree with Teachin'Mine that it might be easiest not to disrupt the flow and move from algebra 2 towards precalc. Instead of taking the AoPS class, he could use their book to flesh out his algebra 2 with additional topics that had not been covered in his program. Or just start whatever precalculus program you had in mind. LOL on liking things our own way :) I do have a concern about the *flow* -- but I should also mention that a nearby college-prep public school has all kids do "Functions, Statistics, & Trig" before pre-calc. I suppose since it's not just stats, it might be different? https://docs.google.com/a/apps.edina.k12.mn.us/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B769PZiBhGaVOTc2YTk0ZWItZTVlMC00OTQyLThkZDQtYjM2MDVhMWQxNTZk&hl=en_US Would your son be interested in taking AP Statistics? I believe it can be begun after Algebra 2, usually concurrently with precalc. I believe the AP class was designed so that more non-STEM students would take it. I'm not 100% sure about this, though. Anyway, your son could work on AP Stats for 6 months and then finish up the rest and review while studying precalculus next year. If you're interested, there are a number of excellent old posts about AP Stats. I'm pretty sure he won't want to do two classes concurrently. But you've got me searching and I didn't find a lot of old posts on statistics, nothing tagged AP Statistics, but I did find a few things in those posts that seem interesting: StatTrek (love the name) http://stattrek.com/AP-Statistics-1/Variables.aspx?Tutorial=ap PA Homeschoolers http://98.130.222.129/ I think just having folks to chat with about it is helping me :thumbup: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

MBM Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I'm pretty sure he won't want to do two classes concurrently. But you've got me searching and I didn't find a lot of old posts on statistics, nothing tagged AP Statistics, but I did find a few things in those posts that seem interesting:StatTrek (love the name) http://stattrek.com/AP-Statistics-1/Variables.aspx?Tutorial=ap PA Homeschoolers http://98.130.222.129/ You'll get bette results using the search feature for "AP statistics". I believe Blue Hen has taught AP Statistics through PA Homeschoolers. Not sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Teachin'Mine Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) You have a good point that getting used to a new math program might be something we could do in the spring. And that thinking about what he'll use for precalc would be best -- ugh, that research is causing my brain to explode! However, I must not be making sense tonight, because I definitely think Math Relief has taken him as far or farther than any other Algebra 2 I've seen -- and I ignored the advice from the AoPS guy on that, since he is talking about something he's never even heard of. LOL on liking things our own way :) I do have a concern about the *flow* -- but I should also mention that a nearby college-prep public school has all kids do "Functions, Statistics, & Trig" before pre-calc. I suppose since it's not just stats, it might be different? https://docs.google.com/a/apps.edina.k12.mn.us/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B769PZiBhGaVOTc2YTk0ZWItZTVlMC00OTQyLThkZDQtYjM2MDVhMWQxNTZk&hl=en_US Julie sorry I misunderstood about Math Relief. Sounds like doing Saxon's Algebra 2 would just be more about getting familiar with them than about learning new things or filling gaps. Review in math never hurts and will set him up nicely for pre-calc. Whenever he completes or tests out of the Algebra 2 text, I'd move right on to the Advanced Math. Some students complete AM in a year and others in 3 or 4 semesters. Regarding functions, statistics and trig - that is all incorporated into the AM text. There's some in the Algebra 2 text also. My dd hasn't done a statistics course yet, but I would think that would delve much more deeply than what's in the other texts. I think the exposure she's already had to working with factorials and all will definitely help when she does take a class. Thank you for that link on the flow chart of math classes - interesting!!! :) One of the paths does show AP statistics after algebra 2 and before pre-calculus, so I suppose that can be done. I'd just try to incorporate algebra 2 review through the year so it's still fresh the next year for pre-calculus. Edited February 6, 2012 by Teachin'Mine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Brigid in NC Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I think just having folks to chat with about it is helping me :thumbup: May I join the chat? :) Coming in a little late on this, and it may have already been mentioned--but we found a tremendous side benefit to the Statistics class my ds took. Lots of Excel graphing. I used to think I knew Excel, but my ds is light-years ahead of me now. I know all stats classes aren't configured the same way, but I just thought I'd mention that this was a plus for us. Good luck with your decision! I can't help much with class recommendations because we did math through the CC and took it in a fairly traditional sequence. :-) ~Brigid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Brenda in MA Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Hi Julie, I would recommend that you have your son start PreCalc as soon as he finishes with Algebra 2. From my experience with 3 different PreCalc courses (Saxon, Larson, and Brown), PreCalc is a time consuming course, and giving your son an extra semester to tackle it is probably wise. I'm not at all familiar with Math Relief, so I don't know what he's already covered, but PreCalc just includes a lot of topics -- trig, exponents & logs, advanced work with functions, analytic geometry, and sometimes an introduction to matrices, probability/stats, sequences and series, vectors, and calculus. There's just a lot to cover. I hope you find a good fit for your student! Brenda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

kiana Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I do have a concern about the *flow* -- but I should also mention that a nearby college-prep public school has all kids do "Functions, Statistics, & Trig" before pre-calc. I suppose since it's not just stats, it might be different? Sounds like they're using the Chicago Math series, which is set up that way. I'd actually, though, recommend just starting precalculus and planning on being able to take it nice and easy and take 3 semesters. A lot of people feel rushed towards the end of precalculus and start thinking about which chapters they need to skip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Julie in MN Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 You'll get bette results using the search feature for "AP statistics". I believe Blue Hen has taught AP Statistics through PA Homeschoolers. Not sure... I did find PA Homeschoolers but I can't commit to a full year, and need our homeschool to be a little more flexible. If you found any other ideas in your searches, regarding a shorter course that's been tried & true, let me know! Whenever he completes or tests out of the Algebra 2 text' date=' I'd move right on to the Advanced Math. Some students complete AM in a year and others in 3 or 4 semesters. Regarding functions, statistics and trig - that is all incorporated into the AM text. [/quote'] I think the most folks are recommending to just move on. I'm probably procrastinating on that because I don't know what we're moving on *to* -- I already have a list of like 16 options for precalculus, but that's for another post... I didn't consider that some precalc texts might already include statistics or probability. That's a good thought. My oldest son said he wishes he had taken more statistics, but maybe he had some in there that he isn't remembering. May I join the chat? :) Coming in a little late on this, and it may have already been mentioned--but we found a tremendous side benefit to the Statistics class my ds took. Lots of Excel graphing. I used to think I knew Excel, but my ds is light-years ahead of me now. Brigid, I always like lots of chat :) Interesting on the Excel graphing. It also reminds me that just using a graphing calculator might be good - I guess until I pick a precalc, I won't be able to research what previous skills are expected there. From my experience with 3 different PreCalc courses (Saxon, Larson, and Brown), PreCalc is a time consuming course, and giving your son an extra semester to tackle it is probably wise. Brenda, this sounds like what most folks are recommending. Did you have a favorite among the 3 precalc courses you've used? I didn't want to get into that topic here, but I couldn't resist when you have so much experience! Sounds like they're using the Chicago Math series, which is set up that way. I'd actually, though, recommend just starting precalculus and planning on being able to take it nice and easy and take 3 semesters. A lot of people feel rushed towards the end of precalculus and start thinking about which chapters they need to skip. I'll have to ask ds's friends from that school. You're probably right on the Chicago sequence. I've heard raves and rants on Chicago math :) The point about rushing at the end is a good one. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

8filltheheart Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I'd like some advice on a spring math class after my son finishes Algebra 2. He just gets Alg2 and is moving along at a good pace. I hate to have him lose momentum by spending 6 months with no math before next fall. Some ideas spinning around in my head: 1. Statistics. It doesn't seem like he's gotten a lot of stats so far. However, when I got out a little probability and statistics unit I have (for public school teachers), and asked him about the very first section (probability when flipping 2 coins), he was like, Duh, mom, half times a half is a fourth... I am sure there are more Statistics options from regular textbook companies, but I would expect them to be full-year courses, longer than I need, and I think we'd lose a lot of momentum as I tried to pick & choose sections he needs. I did email AoPS and (although I was annoyed by their superiority syndrome) they did give me a recommendation: do both "Introduction to Counting & Probability" and "Algebra 3" before he starts precalc next fall. That sounds like a bit more of a load than I want to put on him. He's not behind in math, after all. He does like math, but he's a lackadaisical, way-youngest child. So I looked at just their C&P book. It seems like some of it would be easy for him, and a lot of the rest might be weighted towards "interesting tricks" that only work in a few situations? I mean, working with numbers every-which-way is always useful, but my son is already on a little math team (they are taking the AMC this week). Anyways, I also looked at AoPS's "Intermediate" C&P and it looks like it would challenge him, but not sure if I need to push him to do that, and AoPS didn't suggest that. He likes video, and I see that AoPS offers video classes which my son would like (a little pricey for us as an extra) as well as just free video lessons. Hmm... I've also looked at LOF Statistics, but after my son's experience with chatty Mr. Jacobs (last year's Geometry), I can't imagine he would do well with LOF's chattiness? He was great with Singapore word problems but when it's just general chatting, he likes to say, "I get it. Where's the math?" (Also ruled out Jacobs' Mathematics A Human Endeavor for this reason.) Barron's E-Z Statistics is likely to also be chatty, but might be more doable, not sure? I know TTC has Statistics videos, which he would love, but my goal is to have him working problems, not just watching. I expect the professor recommends a college textbook in the TTC guide, but that would be a lot to weed through. Should I continue to pursue this topic for the spring? Are there better options than these for doing a few months of statistics/probability? 2. Algebra 3. I actually am not really sure what Alg.3 is. It was something AoPS mentioned. I had the idea it was for folks who needed a third year of Algebra in college :confused: My son likes algebra, but he has a really solid base in it, so does he need more?: 3. Start precalc? I've heard that some precalc programs can be done over more than one year. I haven't done precalc with my kids yet (oldest did it independent study at public school). MFW, which I use, recommends Saxon Advanced Math, along with DIVE. My son's math coach also thinks Saxon is the most challenging he's used, and as an example he coached a kid who tested into Calc. 3 after Saxon (not sure he went that direction, but just his reasoning there). However, I've heard it's hard to jump into Saxon this late in the game. I have researched a LOT of precalc classes (I'll save that for another thread), but is precalc something I should go ahead and start this spring? Sorry if that was too much to read; *lengthy* seems to be the only way I can express myself. And thanks for any random thoughts you throw my way, Julie Hi Julie, I personally think that the advice that AoPS is giving you is sound, not snobbish at all. My ds took both intro to c&p and alg 3 before their pre-cal course. He specifically told me last yr that he would have sunk in the very first chpt of the pre-cal book if he hadn't taken the alg 3 course. (he never mentioned C&P and he isn't here to ask. But, C&P was his first AoPS class and it was a good introduction to their materials. FWIW, he has said that he wants to go back through the book now (over 2 yr later and w/pre-cal and most of cal behind him) b/c he thinks he will get more out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Teachin'Mine Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Julie if you want to go the Saxon route, you can always give him the Advanced Math text now. The first few chapters are review of Algebra 2 and might be enough to get him comfortable with Saxon. If he finds that he needs more, then you could always back up to some Saxon Algebra 2 review and go back to the AM when he's ready. That's the beauty of starting now instead of next September - with whatever program you decide to go with. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Brenda in MA Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Brenda, this sounds like what most folks are recommending. Did you have a favorite among the 3 precalc courses you've used? I didn't want to get into that topic here, but I couldn't resist when you have so much experience! Julie, We absolutely did not like Saxon. My son used the Advanced Math book for one year, and he had to repeat PreCalc because he couldn't apply what he'd learned. He had the DIVE CDs, but they weren't much help. Saxon's approach was too scattered, and he ended up memorizing algorithms. I know it works for some, but it didn't work for him. He's a visual learner, and he loved the Larson book with the Dana Mosely videos. My younger son is using the Advanced Math book by Brown (follows the Dolciani/Brown series for Algebra/Geometry) , and I like that a lot, too. There isn't any kind of video instruction available for this book, so if you need that, it's probably not a good choice. Maybe if you describe a little bit about Math Relief's approach, that would help us understand your son's background. Also -- what are you looking for with regard to instruction/support (instruction videos, detailed solutions, etc)? Brenda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

KAR120C Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 AP Stats can go right after Algebra 2. If you don't want to commit to a year (or someone else's schedule), check out Against All Odds on Learner.org -- you can get the text and study guide cheap on half.com... A strong math student could probably get through it in a semester, or if not quite that fast, then certainly with a little summer work. I personally like the algebra-based statistics, not because calculus based isn't much more thorough, but because the first run through gives you a very good feel for what the calculus-based work will be doing when you get to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

MBM Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 AP Stats can go right after Algebra 2. If you don't want to commit to a year (or someone else's schedule), check out Against All Odds on Learner.org -- you can get the text and study guide cheap on half.com... A strong math student could probably get through it in a semester, or if not quite that fast, then certainly with a little summer work. I personally like the algebra-based statistics, not because calculus based isn't much more thorough, but because the first run through gives you a very good feel for what the calculus-based work will be doing when you get to it. :iagree: The bulk of AP Statistics can be done in about a semester. Then throughout the year, your son could just review and get ready for the AP exam in May. My son is planning to spend some time studying for it this summer with the intention of taking the test next May. We're trying to get his high school on board with this. Incidentally, they use the U of Chicago text but we will probably use the one recommended after Algebra 2. Here are some old threads that discuss texts, time commitments, and online resources that you might find helpful: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215683&highlight=AP+Statistics http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=794644&highlight=AP+Statistics#post794644 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1583790&highlight=AP+Statistics#post1583790 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1593228&highlight=AP+Statistics#post1593228 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2028466&highlight=AP+Statistics#post2028466 Getting a head start on Precalc is a good idea, too. Decisions, decisions! Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Julie in MN Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) I personally think that the advice that AoPS is giving you is sound, not snobbish at all. ... C&P was his first AoPS class and it was a good introduction to their materials. FWIW, he has said that he wants to go back through the book now (over 2 yr later and w/pre-cal and most of cal behind him) b/c he thinks he will get more out of it. Well, 8, if your kids think it's a challenging course, then I'm sure it is :) It just felt like a big self-congratulation to say things like, "these courses, particularly the latter two, will be far more challenging than the material he has used to date. They are much more like college courses than the curricula he has used in the past," when he doesn't have enough information to make that comparison. And I'm glad to hear that if my son went ahead and did the AoPS C&P, your son found it worthy enough to go back & revisit. I was a bit worried it would be skewed too much towards "math tricks." Julie if you want to go the Saxon route' date=' you can always give him the Advanced Math text now. The first few chapters are review of Algebra 2 and might be enough to get him comfortable with Saxon. [/quote']Now that's a good thought. Since I keep getting Saxon recommendations, this would take care of the issue of his not having used it before. Hmmm. We absolutely did not like Saxon. My son used the Advanced Math book for one year, and he had to repeat PreCalc because he couldn't apply what he'd learned. He had the DIVE CDs, but they weren't much help. Saxon's approach was too scattered, and he ended up memorizing algorithms. I know it works for some, but it didn't work for him. He's a visual learner, and he loved the Larson book with the Dana Mosely videos. ... Maybe if you describe a little bit about Math Relief's approach, that would help us understand your son's background. Also -- what are you looking for with regard to instruction/support (instruction videos, detailed solutions, etc)? Brenda, I'm worried your first son is like mine... I was hoping the DIVE would take care of the visual thing, but apparently it didn't for yours. Such decisions. About Math Relief, I find it very hard to "describe an algebra text." I asked my son to describe it and he said, "You could post a problem I'm working on?" Anyways, the set-up is that there is a daily video lesson and there are worksheets, maybe 20-50 problems a day, and there are answer keys that are the worksheets with every problem fully worked out, so we can pinpoint where a problem occurred, plus there is good email support if needed. I like all of those :) As far as difficulty, I feel it is solid. He's near the beginning of phase 3 of Algebra 2 (the last phase), and the first 2 phages already covered a lot - imaginary numbers (i); complex math statements that include fractions, square roots, negatives, exponents with +/- in them, of course lots of factoring required including polynomials; and a large section on word problems (interest, percentages, rate of work, motion, & geometric). I see phase 3 heads back into things he covered in Algebra I, but I assume with more depth - quadratic formula, graphing simultaneous equations, etc. Anyways, my son's background also includes extra math in smaller ways. He did Kumon a few years when I was a tutor there, which was basically drill every single day of the week. He has been on a math team for several years. They just took the AMC-12 yesterday, which was a rough competition. He did wish the teacher would have sprung for the 10th grade test for the 10th graders in the group :tongue_smilie: But anyways, he's not afraid of math. AP Stats can go right after Algebra 2. If you don't want to commit to a year (or someone else's schedule), check out Against All Odds on Learner.org -- you can get the text and study guide cheap on half.com... A strong math student could probably get through it in a semester, or if not quite that fast, then certainly with a little summer work. I personally like the algebra-based statistics, not because calculus based isn't much more thorough, but because the first run through gives you a very good feel for what the calculus-based work will be doing when you get to it. I'm still thinking not to put that much time into Statistics, but I'm glad to have the info. You never know when my son will want to go in a new direction :) http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215683&highlight=AP+Statistics http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=794644&highlight=AP+Statistics#post794644 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1583790&highlight=AP+Statistics#post1583790 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1593228&highlight=AP+Statistics#post1593228 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2028466&highlight=AP+Statistics#post2028466[/color] Wow, thanks for those, I'll be reading them all! It's so fun having a group who likes to chat about things like math choices :) Julie Edited February 8, 2012 by Julie in MN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

regentrude Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) It just felt like a big self-congratulation to say things like, "these courses, particularly the latter two, will be far more challenging than the material he has used to date. They are much more like college courses than the curricula he has used in the past," when he doesn't have enough information to make that comparison. I am pretty sure they know what other programs are available. As far as difficulty, I feel it is solid. He's near the beginning of phase 3 of Algebra 2 (the last phase), and the first 2 phages already covered a lot - imaginary numbers (i); complex math statements that include fractions, square roots, negatives, exponents with +/- in them, of course lots of factoring required including polynomials; and a large section on word problems (interest, percentages, rate of work, motion, & geometric). I see phase 3 heads back into things he covered in Algebra I, but I assume with more depth - quadratic formula, graphing simultaneous equations, etc. This description bears out the assessment of the AoPS folks.In AoPS, all the topics you mentioned, except for polynomials, are covered in the 16 week long algebra 1 course (and in the first half of the Intro to Algebra book). Their Algebra 2 course would have functions, exponentials and logarithms, sequences and series (and still be only the second half of the Intro to algebra book) Edited February 8, 2012 by regentrude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

snowbeltmom Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) And I'm glad to hear that if my son went ahead and did the AoPS C&P, your son found it worthy enough to go back & revisit. I was a bit worried it would be skewed too much towards "math tricks." Julie, please know that my comments are not meant to be snarky. It is hard to get the tone across in this format. I have read other pp's responses in other threads that state that AoPS is skewed towards "math tricks." Having used the AoPS curriculum now for over 4 years, which includes every single text from the new pre-algebra book up through pre-calc, I just don't understand where this perception comes from? I have to question whether pp that make that statement have even looked at an AoPS textbook.:confused: My son took AoPS Counting & Probability shortly before he took a college level Genetics class at CTY. Many days he was the only student in the class able to answer a question...all because of the C&P he tooked with AoPS. If I had a student heading towards a STEM career, I would definitely have him work through the C&P book before he left for college. Edited February 8, 2012 by snowbeltmom 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Julie in MN Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 This description bears out the assessment of the AoPS folks.In AoPS, all the topics you mentioned, except for polynomials, are covered in the 16 week long algebra 1 course (and in the first half of the Intro to Algebra book). Their Algebra 2 course would have functions, exponentials and logarithms, sequences and series (and still be only the second half of the Intro to algebra book) That's the thing, though. My son also did the same topics in Algebra 1; Alg. 2 seems to just be more, and more things mixed into one problem, as far as I can tell. He's doing "completing the square" today but that doesn't mean he didn't do plenty of it in Alg.1. Everyone does do things in a little bit different order, of course, and Math Relief does choose to focus exclusively on Algebra, as a foundation for strong skills needed in other maths. There was coverage of functions, but no trig/logs except in geometry & on his math team. I suppose my son could do trig for the spring, although I can't say I'd be excited by that, because I found it particularly uninspiring :( and I figure it's a big part of precalc these days. Julie, please know that my comments are not meant to be snarky. It is hard to get the tone across in this format. I have read other pp's responses in other threads that state that AoPS is skewed towards "math tricks." ... If I had a student heading towards a STEM career, I would definitely have him work through the C&P book before he left for college. Don't worry, your post was completely polite :) My "math tricks" comment was completely based on my own experience with MathCounts and AMC competitions, and with the coaching and prep materials for those competitions. I have no experience at all with AoPS (my library doesn't even carry it), but I watched the AoPS sample video and I just got the feeling that I recognized our math competition experiences with those (and the AoPS website heavily emphasized the competitions as well). I don't recall reading about the "math tricks" idea on this forum. Anyways, I am glad my son has been a part of the "gymnastics" of math in this way, where problems come randomly from every discipline, and require multiple skills to be readily available. But I also find that those who want to create "winners" do spend a lot of time talking about interesting things you can do with particular numbers in particular situations. Those little techniques are part of what makes a kid enjoy math, I think, so they are good. The "math exercise" also prepares a student to approach math lessons with a bigger picture in mind, or a bigger understanding of the whole of the math world. I just wasn't sure personally if I wanted it to be "all" of my son's math. I'm glad to hear that you firmly think it wouldn't be with AoPS. An experienced user is worth more than all the fantastic websites in the world :) Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

8filltheheart Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) Well, 8, if your kids think it's a challenging course, then I'm sure it is :) It just felt like a big self-congratulation to say things like, "these courses, particularly the latter two, will be far more challenging than the material he has used to date. They are much more like college courses than the curricula he has used in the past," when he doesn't have enough information to make that comparison. And I'm glad to hear that if my son went ahead and did the AoPS C&P, your son found it worthy enough to go back & revisit. I was a bit worried it would be skewed too much towards "math tricks." :confused: I'm not sure where you are coming from. The pt of my OP was that ds felt that he could not have succeed in their pre-cal course after only alg 2. He personally needed their alg 3 course to be on par with the material in their pre-cal course. I didn't mention challenge at all.....simply that he said he would have sunk: he wouldn't have possessed the math skills/knowledge base required. I also don't get "math trick" comments made by posters. Ds was in Math Counts in middle school. He actually placed 4th regionally. But, he does not believe that AoPS is focused on math tricks at all, but deep understanding of concepts. He believes the focus is on math theory. He also sees their materials like "peeling an onion." The further you are in math, when you go back through their materials, you discover more and deepen understanding beyond what you originally had. Edited February 8, 2012 by 8FillTheHeart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

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