What will help with this? Writing sample included.

[plansrme]

My sixth grader wrote this paragraph, which is entirely typical of what I get from her:

 

"She left a few things out in her first draft. There are more details when she talks about judo benefits your body. Some are flexibility, losing weight, and reflexes. She explains the main object is in a judo match."

 

The assignment is irrelevant, but I am sure everyone sees the problem: even ignoring the parallelism issue, the paragraph just makes no sense!

 

Relevant background is that we have had an extensive evaluation by an educational psychologist. The evaluation was valuable in confirming what I see, but it was nearly usele$$ in determining what to do about it. I can't keep giving her writing back and saying, "That makes no sense." Believe me, I've done that enough; it doesn't help. Nor do I think I should just fix it and give it back--not only do I not need to do sixth grade again, having already passed it with flying colors--but she will learn nothing, not one single thing, from my doing so. Perhaps other children would benefit from seeing the revisions, but NOT this one.

 

So, help! Please! Does she need dictation? Narration? A slap on the head? Copywork? What???

 

I would appreciate any input.

 

Terri

Edited January 18, 2012 by plansrme
typo

[RamonaQ]

When dealing with writing, I think you should choose your goal and only focus on that.

 

It sounds in this case that you want to work on strong paragraph structure.

 

Overview:

(1) I would first teach paragraph structure

 

(2) I would practice pre-writing to create a paragraph structure. I would create a very simple worksheet that I would use for the purposes of teaching such as something like this:

 

Topic:

Detail:

Detail:

Detail:

Concluding Sentence: ( I may leave this off for another day but mention it exists and you will teach later).

 

(3) I would do this in a very structured way, using a pre-writing worksheet to work from above, because my guess is your daughter's working memory is being overwhelmed by the task of creating ideas, organizing ideas, spelling and transcribing.

 

Teaching details:

(1) I would first teach by example of a paragraph first. I would identify some very well structured paragraphs-- Diana Hansbury King Writing Skills books would be a good source. Then I would have your dd (1) Highlight the topic sentence; (2) Use a different color to highlight the supporting sentences; (3) Highlight the concluding sentence in a different color. Noticing that all the detail sentences are supporting the topic sentence.

 

Then from that paragraph, I would fill in a worksheet (much like the little example I just showed you).

 

Have your dd try this independently but you readily available to help.

 

(2) Write your own paragraph. I would use the same worksheet you created, and that you filled in before. Now, you model using the worksheet. (If you need an idea for the topic, The Writing Skills books have lots of ideas about topics). You brainstorm together three supporting details-- you are scribing everything while your dd watches. Then you work together to turn those into sentences (I would worry about teaching the concluding sentence for another day).

 

Now you can try this again, but have your dd copy along. Finally, you will want your dd to do on her own.

 

As far as other issues, again. You identify your goal-- maybe working on parallelism-- and you isolate that to teach and then move it into teaching it in context by you modeling it first, then working with your daughter to have her do it and then allowing her to do this independently to reach mastery.

[plansrme]

It sounds in this case that you want to work on strong paragraph structure.

 

She is not even close to being ready to work on paragraph structure. Thank you for your thoughts, but she is not ready for paragraph structure. I have tried more or less what you've suggested, and I keep backing up to where we are now, which is that she writes as if English is not her first language.

 

Terri

[8filltheheart]

Some kids project a lot onto their writing that they haven't actually written down. W/o knowing your dd, when I read what you posted that is the way I interpret it. My 17 yod's writing was almost always illogical and disconnected. She couldn't put things on paper that made sense b/c in her mind there were so many more details that she automatically included when she read what she wrote that simply didn't make it onto the paper. (ETA: to give you encouragement, she has taken English comp at both our local community college as well as at her liberal arts college. She made high As in both classes! That is a far cry from where I pictured her yrs ago when I despaired of anything she wrote ever even making sense!)

 

The first step I took w/her was to spend an inordinate amt of time writing how-to paragraphs, everything from how to make your bed to how to bake cookies (basically, everything and anything that I could think of that had very specific order). THe how-to paragraphs were easy to use to demonstrate missing steps or out of order logic.

 

After she finally mastered how-to paragraphs, we progressed to deconstructing well-written paragraph examples. She had to outline topic sentence and supporting details from the paragraphs. Then we would discuss why they were in the order they were in, why that topic sentence worked, why certain details weren't included (learning what not to include was almost as difficult as learning what to include!)

 

The rest of the general way that I taught her how to write is posted on the logic board. I don't if that post will help or not, but here is the link: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2363522&highlight=incremental#post2363522

Edited January 18, 2012 by 8FillTheHeart

[Laurie4b]

My sixth grader wrote this paragraph, which is entirely typical of what I get from her:

 

"She left a few things out in her first draft. There are more details when she talks about judo benefits your body. Some are flexibility, losing weight, and reflexes. She explains the main object is in a judo match."

 

The assignment is irrelevant, but I am sure everyone sees the problem: even ignoring the parallelism issue, the paragraph just makes no sense!

 

Relevant background is that we have had an extensive evaluation by an educational psychologist. The evaluation was valuable in confirming what I see, but it was nearly usele$$ in determining what to do about it. I can't keep giving her writing back and saying, "That makes no sense." Believe me, I've done that enough; it doesn't help. Nor do I think I should just fix it and give it back--not only do I not need to do sixth grade again, having already passed it with flying colors--but she will learn nothing, not one single thing, from my doing so. Perhaps other children would benefit from seeing the revisions, but NOT this one.

 

So, help! Please! Does she need dictation? Narration? A slap on the head? Copywork? What???

 

I would appreciate any input.

 

Terri

 

Is that paragraph an exact quote? Or is it you paraphrasing /summarizing part of what she wrote and part quotes?

[plansrme]

It is an exact quote. She was writing about a fictional student's first draft of a writing assignment. What is inside the quotation marks is exactly what she wrote. She does not, or claims that she does not, see what is wrong with it.

 

Terri

[lionfamily1999]

This is how I've dealt with this. I read their paper aloud to them stopping to ask questions. While I'm reading and asking, they are writing their paper a second time.

 

So...

 

"She... she who?"

 

"Emily" (for instance).

 

"Okay, Emily left a few things out in her first draft. There are more details when... There are more details when?"

 

"Were."

 

"Ah. There were more details when she talks about judo... There were more details when she talks about..."

 

"Talked."

 

"Alrighty. When she talked about judo benefits your body. Hmmm. When she talked about judo benefits your body?"

 

Eventually, my oldest starting reading her papers aloud alone and really listening to herself. Having them read the work aloud will help, but only if they listent to themselves and DON'T correct their work mentally as they read it. IOW, they will fix problems while reading, without realizing they've edited their work so they never actually correct the writing.

 

With fragments, if they can't seem to 'hear' that the sentence is wrong I will flat out ask, "What's the verb in this sentence? What is the subject?"

 

I hope this helps you out. No worries :grouphug:

[plansrme]

I have tried having her read it aloud. I will have her diagram the sentences to see that there is no verb, or no subject or whatever. She looks at me like I am the one with the problem. But still, it is good to know that worked for someone. I will keep at it.

 

Terri

[Stacy in NJ]

I agree with 8filltheheart. She's assuming her reader has background knowledge that they don't. She's writing the way some people talk to each other when they share the same experience.

 

I would follow 8filltheheart's advice, but I'd also consider revisiting narration and dictation. Narration, first spoken then written, can help develop that logical sequence and knowledge gap. Another device I'd suggest is telling her that a space alien is her audience, and that alien doesn't know anything about the topic.

 

I'd back her up and give her very simple assignments like: The place I'd like to live, My favorite sport, A happy event, A scary event......

 

The first step for approaching this type of assignment is to turn the topic or question into the first sentence of the essay...

 

The place I would most like to live is.....

 

The place I would like to live is New York City.

 

Then she needs to tell her main reason:

 

The main reason I would like to live in New York City is because I love Broadway shows.

 

Then she needs to write more about her main reason.

 

New York City is famous for it's Broadway plays. I enjoy musical comedies like Wicked. I would love to see every Broadway musical playing. I get lost in the singing, dancing and story lines.

 

Then she needs to tell more reasons....

 

Another reason why I would like to live in New York city is because I would love to visit all the museums there. I enjoy art and those giant museums would keep me happily busy for days. Also, I hate driving and would enjoy walking, taking the subway, or cabbing around the city.

 

Another type of essay would require she tell When, Where, and Who...

 

Write about a happy event....

 

A happy event occurred on Christmas morning two years ago. It was early in the morning and I was just walking down the stairs from my room. My family was just waking up as well. I was surprised and joyful to see a bike parked underneath the Christmas tree. I had asked for it, but wasn't sure my parents would be able to afford it this year.

 

The next paragraph(s) should give more information for the reader to know what happened.

 

While this is very formulaic writing, it provides a structure that will help her fill in those logic gaps.

 

Until she's able to write really sequentially and logically on simple topics, she won't be able to analyze and write about more complex material. It looks like the assignment on judo you gave her asks her to assess what someone else has written. That's really tough to do if a solid foundation isn't in place.

 

HTH, Stacy

 

My sixth grader wrote this paragraph, which is entirely typical of what I get from her:

 

"She left a few things out in her first draft. There are more details when she talks about judo benefits your body. Some are flexibility, losing weight, and reflexes. She explains the main object is in a judo match."

 

The assignment is irrelevant, but I am sure everyone sees the problem: even ignoring the parallelism issue, the paragraph just makes no sense!

 

Relevant background is that we have had an extensive evaluation by an educational psychologist. The evaluation was valuable in confirming what I see, but it was nearly usele$$ in determining what to do about it. I can't keep giving her writing back and saying, "That makes no sense." Believe me, I've done that enough; it doesn't help. Nor do I think I should just fix it and give it back--not only do I not need to do sixth grade again, having already passed it with flying colors--but she will learn nothing, not one single thing, from my doing so. Perhaps other children would benefit from seeing the revisions, but NOT this one.

 

So, help! Please! Does she need dictation? Narration? A slap on the head? Copywork? What???

 

I would appreciate any input.

 

Terri

Edited January 18, 2012 by Stacy in NJ

[lionfamily1999]

I have tried having her read it aloud. I will have her diagram the sentences to see that there is no verb, or no subject or whatever. She looks at me like I am the one with the problem. But still, it is good to know that worked for someone. I will keep at it.

 

Terri

I started off having dd read it herself too, and realized I had to read it to her, because she would correct her mistakes in her head, so she never really heard them. The questions are important too. Sure, your dd will roll her eyes and act like you're a total moron for not knowing who "she" is (mine did that too), but eventually she'll get the point that the reader is not psychic.

 

Keeping it up is the hardest part... that and the eye rolling.

 

ETA, if you can't be this hands-on, then a bright red pencil will help. Underline issues and write questions in the margin.

 

She (in margin, She who?)

fragment sentence (Is this a sentence? Where's the verb? Where's the subject?)

Edited January 18, 2012 by lionfamily1999

[plansrme]

I started off having dd read it herself too, and realized I had to read it to her, because she would correct her mistakes in her head, so she never really heard them. The questions are important too. Sure, your dd will roll her eyes and act like you're a total moron for not knowing who "she" is (mine did that too), but eventually she'll get the point that the reader is not psychic.

 

Keeping it up is the hardest part... that and the eye rolling.

 

ETA, if you can't be this hands-on, then a bright red pencil will help. Underline issues and write questions in the margin.

 

She (in margin, She who?)

fragment sentence (Is this a sentence? Where's the verb? Where's the subject?)

 

Okay, okay, I'll keep trying! And with her, it isn't so much eye rolling as the hatred emanating from her. She doesn't hate me--she loves me! But when we're talking about writing, she all but shoots daggers from her eyes. If we ever get to eye-rolling, I'll consider it progress!

 

Terri

[plansrme]

Some kids project a lot onto their writing that they haven't actually written down. W/o knowing your dd, when I read what you posted that is the way I interpret it. My 17 yod's writing was almost always illogical and disconnected. She couldn't put things on paper that made sense b/c in her mind there were so many more details that she automatically included when she read what she wrote that simply didn't make it onto the paper. (ETA: to give you encouragement, she has taken English comp at both our local community college as well as at her liberal arts college. She made high As in both classes! That is a far cry from where I pictured her yrs ago when I despaired of anything she wrote ever even making sense!)

 

The first step I took w/her was to spend an inordinate amt of time writing how-to paragraphs, everything from how to make your bed to how to bake cookies (basically, everything and anything that I could think of that had very specific order). THe how-to paragraphs were easy to use to demonstrate missing steps or out of order logic.

 

After she finally mastered how-to paragraphs, we progressed to deconstructing well-written paragraph examples. She had to outline topic sentence and supporting details from the paragraphs. Then we would discuss why they were in the order they were in, why that topic sentence worked, why certain details weren't included (learning what not to include was almost as difficult as learning what to include!)

 

The rest of the general way that I taught her how to write is posted on the logic board. I don't if that post will help or not, but here is the link: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2363522&highlight=incremental#post2363522

 

Thank you for taking the time to write this out. I haven't responded earlier because I was reading on my phone and wanted to be able to consider it more carefully. I also have read (and printed) the post to which you linked. There is a lot in here that I think will be useful. Writing how-to paragraphs ad nauseum, combined with going all the way back to copywork (which I never did with her, on the grounds that she was "too old," so I thought, when we started homeschooling), sounds doable.

 

I say this child writes like English is not her first language, and it sort of isn't. We adopted her from China at 15 months, and while she speaks English just fine, I do see similarities between her difficulties with language and those of the adult ESL students to whom I teach grammar. I don't know if her issues were really caused by not hearing much of any language during the first 15 months (Lord knows we have inundated her with it since then--I took board books with me to China and read them to her, repeatedly), but I do see parallels.

 

Terri

[lionfamily1999]

Okay, okay, I'll keep trying! And with her, it isn't so much eye rolling as the hatred emanating from her. She doesn't hate me--she loves me! But when we're talking about writing, she all but shoots daggers from her eyes. If we ever get to eye-rolling, I'll consider it progress!

 

Terri

Oh boy do I know what you mean.

[PeterPan]

http://abcteach.com/directory/childhood/reading/story_sequence/ Something like this would give you a more concrete way to work through the steps of those "how to" paragraphs together. Do that orally and begin to transition to written.

 

Did the ed psych do IQ testing to give you info on processing speed and working memory? When she speaks just around the house does she use correct english and complete sentences? Is this only occurring in her writing?

 

If this is getting daggers, I would back off, get a more concrete task, and do it orally.

[plansrme]

Did the ed psych do IQ testing to give you info on processing speed and working memory? When she speaks just around the house does she use correct english and complete sentences? Is this only occurring in her writing?

 

He did do IQ testing, and it was well into the high average range. Processing speed was very high, one of the highest he'd seen, so he said, and her working memory was average. She does use correct English, but certainly not always in complete sentences. She does have some of the same gaps in her speaking that she has in her writing, though. The psych suggested that we have her evaluated by an SLP, which I still plan to do, but by the time I'd spent a month going back and forth with a flake, we were hot and heavy into the school year, and I just have not gone on to the second one on the list.

 

Just to clarify about the assignment--it was not a writing assignment, per se, though it was about writing. The assignment was to compare a fictional student's pre-writing list of details to her first draft, and note how they were different--what did she have on the list that wasn't included in the first draft, and what was in the draft that was not included on the list. It should have been a relatively simple comparison, and the content of my daughter's response was nearly adequate; it was just missing words.

 

Terri