He isn't getting it do we start over?

[ciyates]

DS is in the 10th grade using Chalkdust Algebra 2. His PSAT in math was terrible and his latest SAT was 520. He is struggling so much with Algebra 2 right now. His average is about a 70. I had him complete a few placement test (Teaching Textbook and Math U seee) and he could not place into Algebra 2. I am so frustrated and so is he. If it isn't a problem he is very very familiar with he can't figure out how to do it. My instinct is to start over at the beginning of Algebra with something like TT. I have always stayed away from TT because I thought it was too light. Now I realize he is missing some of the fundamentals. How did we get this far along and I not realize it? :confused:

 

 

By the way we used MUS for Algebra 1 and his grade was a 91.

 

What do I do?

[Julie in MN]

We used TT for part of geometry and I liked it. I haven't heard as many praises of their algebra. Different teacher, I think. H

I just thought you should check more on that.

 

I am a fan of Math Relief for algebra, gifted teacher. They have a sample video on their website and on YouTube. He does say folks use it for a brush-up as well as a complete course. And he answers email questions.

 

Just one idea to throw onto the mix.

Julie

[Musicmom]

Another possibility would be Videotext Algebra. It's normally a 2-year course, but your ds could start from the beginning, proceed quickly through what he already knows, and then slow down when he gets to material that's more difficult. It's thorough, comprehensive (it covers all of algebra), has complete solutions for everything, and has excellent phone support if your ds gets stuck on anything.

 

We used VT and it worked very well for us.

[Teachin'Mine]

Personally I would switch to Saxon Algebra I. As you've said, he's missed things in algebra I, so at the least he needs to supplement. IMO it's hard to know exactly what he's missed as everything builds, so it's easier to just start from the beginning and let him test out of anything he knows solidly and work more quickly through the rest. Did he take geometry? Saxon incorporates geometry into their algebra texts and the first half of Advanced Math. If he starts now with Algebra I, he'll have time to complete this progression and maybe even complete Advanced Math, depending on whether he works year round and how well he absorbs the material.

 

I know that Lial's is often recommended. Whatever you use, I'd have him begin at the beginning of Algebra I and only skip that which he passes with flying colors. Even just one missed concept will snowball in later lessons. Good for you for realizing that what he's using isn't working for him and looking at other options. He still has time, and a good understanding is so much more important than going full speed ahead without having mastery. With his SAT score, I'm guessing that there might be holes in his geometry as well. Saxon would address that too.

[Brenda in MA]

If you think he has some foundation in Algebra 1 from MUS and just needs a different take or just needs a few areas solidified, then maybe Aleks would be the thing to try. Here's a link to their free 2-month trial:

 

http://www.aleks.com/webform/c12

 

I used this with my son after he completed Algebra 2 with Saxon, and I discovered that he had a lot of holes. The nice thing about Aleks is that it gives a pre-test and then focuses only on the areas where the student has holes. Personally, I wouldn't use it as a complete curriculum, but I think it is well suited for selected review.

 

Another option, if you can identify specific holes, would be to look at the Key to Algebra. The whole program is 10 separate booklets, but if you can determine specific areas of weakness, you could just have him do a book or two to shore up those areas. Rainbow Resource Center sells the booklets separately.

 

If he's gone through an Algebra 1 program and still has some weaknesses, I would personally avoid Saxon because in my experience it's not as good at developing a deep understanding in some kids. Also, since the topics are mixed, it would be harder to select specific areas of weakness to work on.

 

Also -- don't fret too much over the math SAT score at this point, especially if he hasn't finished Algebra 2 and he didn't practice for it too much. In my experience, the math on the SAT is full of tricks and twists that are designed to confuse even solid math students. As a result, the best prep for that is a good math background, and most importantly, lost of practice with SAT math problems from the College Board's blue SAT prep book.

 

HTH,

Brenda

[ciyates]

Thanks for the help. We are going back to the drawing board. I borrowed a TT Algebra 1 from a friend and we are going to do every lesson to at least 95% mastery. I think he finally believes me that I am not being mean he really needs to start over. I am going to use Christmas break to look at the recommendations and really really figure out will work with him. I am also making him spend an 1-1 1/2 hour working through the problems for the practice.

[kiana]

With respect to TT being light (and seeing that you're going to be working on that) I will say that it is FAR, FAR better to have a student using a "light" program that they understand and do well in than a "rigorous" program that they don't understand.

 

This doesn't mean that it's wrong to try to use rigorous programs. But if they're not working, they're NOT.

[3byzaz]

With respect to TT being light (and seeing that you're going to be working on that) I will say that it is FAR, FAR better to have a student using a "light" program that they understand and do well in than a "rigorous" program that they don't understand.

 

This doesn't mean that it's wrong to try to use rigorous programs. But if they're not working, they're NOT.

 

TOTALLY AGREE!!! I read all those reviews as well and decided after trying a few others that we needed to back up to Pre-Alg and this is for my very bright son...he just wasn't getting it. Now we have moved quickly and steadfastly through TT Alg 1 and he is just really getting it. He came out last week and said with some shock - wow, Mom, I am really starting to enjoy my math! I truly almost passed out! This is HUGE!!! He is finally doing very well. We are going to start Geometry soon. I figure it we need to put in another class later to make sure Alg is solid, so be it. For now, I needed him to get it.

 

Truly, this is my very smart student - he aces everything, but had some trouble with math - mostly just errors and all. He wasn't ready for Alg when I thought. Now, he is done mid-way through 9th after firming up the foundation. Just work through it every day with no breaks - you could even do a lesson on Sat if need be!! :)

[creekland]

No matter which curriculum you try, yes, go back and try something. Keep trying until something clicks. Trying to push on in math without understanding will only lead to more and more confusion.

 

Since you're going back, IF you find he does already know some things, don't beat those to death "just because." Instead, try each Chapter Test first and see what you get... then proceed from there.

 

And for what it's worth, I'm not a Saxon fan for higher level math... but whatever works is better than what isn't working.

[G5052]

Pre-algebra and Algebra I took a long time here (some three years 7th-9th grade, 12 months a year), but I wouldn't advance until we truly had Algebra I mastered. We have access to excellent classes, but by teaching myself we paced it until we got it.

 

And yes, Saxon works in our house. I'm not a big fan of it, but the way it teaches and the constant review has been the ticket to success for us.

[Rain]

With respect to TT being light (and seeing that you're going to be working on that) I will say that it is FAR, FAR better to have a student using a "light" program that they understand and do well in than a "rigorous" program that they don't understand.

 

This doesn't mean that it's wrong to try to use rigorous programs. But if they're not working, they're NOT.

 

THANK YOU! We've been using Foerster's Alg 2/Trig with Math Without Borders CD, and dd was *not* getting it. She completely failed Unit 5 test, and when I went back through it with her and we both thought she was understanding it, she got a 58% on the test the next time. UGH!!!

 

THis is my "highly gifted" in math student!

 

Her assessment of why she was doing so poorly and getting so frustrated is that there is very little review of previous material. The 10 "review" questions are so ridiculously easy as to be worthless.

 

I ordered Saxon Alg 2 (2nd edition, super cheap that way) and she looked at it with such relief today. Much as I've stayed adamantly away from the very idea of Saxon for the past 15 years, this is what my dd needs at this time.

 

She also assured *me* today that once she gets up to speed with Saxon, we can always add Foerster back in :lol:

[EKS]

When my son was struggling with Foerster's Alg II with the Math Without Borders lectures we switched to Lial's Intermediate Algebra. I knew there were things he was solid on and things that needed work, but I didn't know which was which. I presented the material to him by writing the example problem on a small whiteboard and he would try to work it. If he could work it with no problem, then we would move on. If there was a problem, I would show him the solution and then I would give him another practice problem (and sometimes another). I would assign homework problems based on what he needed to work on, not all odds or whatever).

 

This worked extremely well. So well, in fact, that I would say it was by far the most successful math year we ever had together. He made connections that he never had before--remarking on how the new concept or technique was essentially the same as what he already knew--connections that I had always tried to get him to make but never quite was able to. I think the combination of me closely monitoring his progress coupled with requiring his active participation in the lesson is what did it. The format of the Lial text lends itself to this approach.

 

It took some time, usually about 30 minutes daily plus time on the weekends when I would make sure I know what was going on for the next week. But it was worth it.

[Mrs Mungo]

Fwiw, my eldest did 2 years of chalkdust and then strted over with TT. TT is going much better for my dd. I agree with the philosophy that it is better for them to take it slow and understand.

[Rain]

When my son was struggling with Foerster's Alg II with the Math Without Borders lectures we switched to Lial's Intermediate Algebra.

 

I will definitely keep this in mind. I have a feeling that dd will only like Saxon for a month or so, but I don't think she'll be ready to go back to Foerster's.

 

I do feel like Saxon Alg 2 (2nd edition) is very light compared to what we've done previously. She needs some confidence at this point, though, and I got both solutions manual and a new text for $12.

 

I just checked Amazon, and to buy the same for Lial's 10th edition it will be a similar price.

 

I would have previously said that you should absolutely not change to an easier curriculum and just spend more time on the one you're using, but I see now where the value is in fully understanding an "easier" (but still thorough) curriculum. I don't think that we should always go for super easy, though, as they don't learn to work hard then.

 

Personally, I think a student who consistently gets Bs is working at the right level (if she is working hard). Cs the material is a bit too challenging perhaps, A's the material is too easy. That's my experience with my dd, at least.

[Mrs Mungo]

I would have previously said that you should absolutely not change to an easier curriculum and just spend more time on the one you're using, but I see now where the value is in fully understanding an "easier" (but still thorough) curriculum. I don't think that we should always go for super easy, though, as they don't learn to work hard then.

 

 

This really depends upon the teen in question. My dd maxes out all the language sections of any standardized test. But, she has to work hard in any math. I think it is inaccurate to say that a slower program means less work.

[creekland]

I agree with the philosophy that it is better for them to take it slow and understand.

 

:iagree: This is what I see that works the best for the majority of students. Some are certainly able to go more quickly and still understand, so one shouldn't hold them back, but if they are doing it without being able to get reasonably high scores on standardized tests (where the questions are mixed up not going "in order") then they aren't really learning, but are more likely memorizing. This need not be an "official" standardized test. One given at home can check just as easily. Standardized tests can also be great at checking for weaknesses or gaps.

 

 

Personally, I think a student who consistently gets Bs is working at the right level (if she is working hard). Cs the material is a bit too challenging perhaps, A's the material is too easy. That's my experience with my dd, at least.

 

I disagree here. I prefer to see As and mastery since math builds upon itself. When mine get a B they must go back and relearn what they didn't get. Oldest and middle were quite math talented and got As easily without issues (and proved it with their standardized tests and college placement tests). Youngest has needed to go back quite a bit as his talents are elsewhere. His test scores also aren't as high, but his understanding is much better than if I'd just allowed him to move on with a B.

[ciyates]

As I said earlier, I borrowed TT Algebra 1 from a friend and we are doing math for 1 hour a day. If he isn't at 95% I make him do the lesson over. As we are going over the simple problems at this level I point out that they are the same concept as the harder problems. He seems to be missing the connection that division is division is division with the same rules regardless if there is a coefficient or a variable. I am hoping that with the success he is seeing now I can build his confidence. He is doing Apologia physic with its trigonometry just fine because he just has to plug the information into the formula.

I am hoping that his problem so far is a mixture of missing some fundamentals and maturity.

I also think part of the problem is that I was being a math snob. :blushing: I had heard so many stories about TT being so light and Chalkdust so superior that I forgot the beauty of homeschooling is doing what is best for my son!

[Rain]

I also think part of the problem is that I was being a math snob. :blushing: I had heard so many stories about TT being so light and Chalkdust so superior that I forgot the beauty of homeschooling is doing what is best for my son!

 

I hear ya!