History delimma: keeping a high schooler and younger siblings in same history cycle

[Sweet Home Alabama]

As for high school history, I've been pretty much decided on MFW high school for a long time: student-directed, integrated history, Bible, and English, and well-organized... this sounds just so perfect for us. I have asked about this before, but I need more data!!! :001_smile:

 

Problem (if you want to call it that): We've been off schedule with classical history. This year we are all studying Middle Ages. So, next year, Dd's two younger brothers will continue with our current history cycle and will be ready for early-American history. If we use MFW for high school, this means we'll have American history and ancient history going at the same time next year. I don't really like this even if the oldest is independent.

 

Before I decide for sure on MFW, what American history would be best for high school that my oldest can use so that all of my children can be studying the same history topics together? I do not want TOG.... I crave open-and-go material.

 

My sons will probably use something that incorporates SOTW. I'm thinking of WTM history or History Odyssey.... I also own the History Channel's DVD America: The Story of Us. I definitely want to use this.

 

 

 

The bottom line:

 

9th: MFW Ancient history and lit

7th and 4th: Early Modern (early American)

 

OR

 

9th, 7th, and 4th Early Modern (early American) using History Channel's America: The Story of Us with _________________. Please make suggestions.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Sweet Home Alabama

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Hoping someone can help...

 

Has anyone tried MFW high school US History to 1877 in 9th grade?

 

Is there anything similar to MFW but written on a 9th grade level?

Edited November 11, 2011 by Sweet Home Alabama

[momofkhm]

Problem (if you want to call it that): We've been off schedule with classical history. This year we are all studying Middle Ages. So, next year, Dd's two younger brothers will continue with our current history cycle and will be ready for early-American history. If we use MFW for high school, this means we'll have American history and ancient history going at the same time next year. I don't really like this even if the oldest is independent.

 

Jump someone so that they are all on the same cycle.

 

I'm not using MFW but do you have to follow their cycle through high school. Can you start your then ninth grade on early American (what they list for 11th grade)? Then everyone is on the same "year" and no one jumps and no one repeats.

 

Or jump your youngers to Ancient. They will repeat early but you will get to American history with them as well.

 

The problem with having to do Ancients in 9th with MFW is that you will have this problem again. Your now 7th grader will join the cycle when you are doing US to 1877. Do you start all over with him? Or does he join you where you are?

[mamakim]

I just always cycle everyone together, so when one of my guys hits 9th grade and we're in early American, so be it. Over the years my opinion has become that starting in 9th grade with ancients isn't the ideal sequence in some respects, anyway.

 

Can't help you with a curriculum, though, as I home brew ours using Paul Johnson's "History of the American People" and Spielvogel as spines and book lists from WTM the book and this board, and others.

 

The nice thing about doing 3rd cycle in 9th grade is that the reading material is in language more accessible than the first two cycles, and not so dark and depressing as the fourth.

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Thanks, everyone.

 

I called MFW. They do not recommend using the US History to 1877 in 9th grade since it is text book/test driven. It would be too advanced for most 9th graders.

 

I love that history, lit/comp, and Bible are integrated in MFW. I really don't want to have to put anything together that compares with this. For this reason, I'm ok with each 9th grader, as they reach this age, start with MFW AHL.

 

The biggest downfall... all of my kids and I have always enjoyed history together. History has been a fun discussion and reading time. It seems kind of sad to think dd will be "stuck" in her room doing history alone while her brothers and I continue the "fun" without her.

 

Yet, won't she have to work independently no matter what? There would be too much required for a high schooler to continue history with younger siblings.... 7th and 4th grades. I want her to enjoy high school... instead of feeling like she has been sent away to do the high school thing.

 

Transitions are not always easy...

Edited November 11, 2011 by Sweet Home Alabama

[Julie in MN]

I agree, it's kinda sad. Like sending them off to college will be...

 

Can they do something or other together? Maybe science experiments or read-alouds? There is a spot in AHL for "general reading" and maybe that could be done as a family? My ds did his general reading in AHL with a book club and it did not line up with history, but he just enjoyed the camaraderie so we went with it. We also used Jotham's Journey for his reading during Advent time, or you could use Kingdom Tales as a family. Another possibility would be to do God and the History of Art towards high school credit & do it with the youngers, too.

 

I did meet a family when I was helping at a MFW convention booth and the mom was trying to keep them all together, the kids weren't far apart in age, but one child in particular was reaching out to say that she felt held back and was ready to move ahead at her own pace. So I thought that was a good lesson in the value of some independence.

 

Julie

[mom31257]

I would definitely work on finding another subject to do together such as science, art/composer studies, unit studies, etc.

[Sweet Home Alabama]

I agree, it's kinda sad. Like sending them off to college will be...

 

Can they do something or other together? Maybe science experiments or read-alouds? There is a spot in AHL for "general reading" and maybe that could be done as a family? My ds did his general reading in AHL with a book club and it did not line up with history, but he just enjoyed the camaraderie so we went with it. We also used Jotham's Journey for his reading during Advent time, or you could use Kingdom Tales as a family. Another possibility would be to do God and the History of Art towards high school credit & do it with the youngers, too.

 

I did meet a family when I was helping at a MFW convention booth and the mom was trying to keep them all together, the kids weren't far apart in age, but one child in particular was reaching out to say that she felt held back and was ready to move ahead at her own pace. So I thought that was a good lesson in the value of some independence.

 

Julie

 

Julie,

I'll certainly try to come up with a different thing they can do together. This was an excellent idea. I'm not familiar with God and the History of Art... would it be ok to use this with kids studying separate periods in history? IOW... is it dependent on the historical time period? My children LOVE art!

 

I kept searching the board last night and came across threads about using Notgrass for American history. This sounds like a way to keep everyone together on the same topic. It is also written to include 3 credits: history, lit, and Bible- although most everyone was in agreement that lit and Bible would have to be beefed up to make a credit.

 

Do you have an opinion about Notgrass American history for high school? I've been planning on using MFW for so long. I hate to change my plans; I love the way MFW is organized and planned out. It would relieve me of a lot of work! It is open and go, and I love that! But if dd would feel left out of family school time, I think I have to consider something else besides MFW.

 

Question regarding MFW: Can you buy components? If we could buy just the writing instruction from MFW, I'm wondering if we could apply it to Notgrass.

 

Notgrass American history for high school, anyone? Opinions?

 

Thank you, everyone!!!

 

ETA: I could also use the History Channel's America: The Story of Us with all of the kids for more together time.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Sweet Home Alabama

[ereks mom]

Julie,

I'll certainly try to come up with a different thing they can do together. This was an excellent idea. I'm not familiar with God and the History of Art... would it be ok to use this with kids studying separate periods in history? IOW... is it dependent on the historical time period? My children LOVE art!

 

I kept searching the board last night and came across threads about using Notgrass for American history. This sounds like a way to keep everyone together on the same topic. It is also written to include 3 credits: history, lit, and Bible- although most everyone was in agreement that lit and Bible would have to be beefed up to make a credit.

 

Do you have an opinion about Notgrass American history for high school? I've been planning on using MFW for so long. I hate to change my plans; I love the way MFW is organized and planned out. It would relieve me of a lot of work! It is open and go, and I love that! But if dd would feel left out of family school time, I think I have to consider something else besides MFW.

 

Notgrass American history for high school, anyone? Opinions?

 

Thank you, everyone!!!

 

I found Notgrass American history to be too "textbook-ish". I would use MFW Exploration to 1850 with all the kids, adapting as necessary for the older one--adding in a few books for independent reading.

 

ETA: Here's a link to a thread I posted on this topic some time back: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2724968#poststop

Edited November 12, 2011 by ereks mom

[Donna A.]

I found Notgrass American history to be too "textbook-ish". I would use MFW Exploration to 1850 with all the kids, adapting as necessary for the older one--adding in a few books for independent reading.

 

ETA: Here's a link to a thread I posted on this topic some time back: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2724968#poststop

 

This is what I would do if I had a willing group. It's actually pretty easy to beef up an elementary program for an older child. My oldest is almost finished with 10th grade/WHL time period, ready to begin American history in January or February. After being with MFW for several years (and pausing to try a few other things along the way), we're at the point of being ready to leave MFW altogether. (Except for possibly my youngest, but I haven't decided on that yet. Notice the age gap between my two youngest, and an even bigger learning gap because youngest has some language delays.)

 

Anyway, I felt the same reservations about having oldest doing her own thing for high school that you feel. I listened to the advice that it would be okay and went ahead with it, but it hasn't worked out well. :sad: I wish I could go back and do the last two years differently. Let's face it, history is the best subject to do all together! Math, science, and English are the best subjects to do independently because of skill level, but history.... should be (can be) FUN. My high schooler has NOT had fun with high school history. :glare: She also got to feeling like the Bible had become a textbook rather than a book to be shared from the heart with one another as a family.

 

Can we do Bible together in addition to the MFW schedule? Yes. Can the girls do other subjects/activities like art, cooking, and P.E. together, separate from the academics? Yes. But there's also an issue of TIME. We found that she couldn't do 5 or more hours of academics by herself every day (not counting elective subjects), plus our outside activities, church, chores, personal devotional time, meals (preparing, eating, and cleaning up), etc. and still have any time left for doing "fun" activities with her sisters. Time with her sisters is what fell through the cracks. I actually had the idea of us doing God and the History of Art all together (as Julie mentioned), but we didn't have TIME! I finally sold it recently, unused. I was kind of bummed about that, but there really just wasn't enough time in our week to squeeze it in.

 

Bottom line is, you have to make some choices and decide which areas are the most important to do together vs. individually. Certain things are a bigger priority than others. Some families will choose to have ALL the high schooler's academics done individually, and some will not. But notice I'm using the word "individually" rather than "independently". There's a couple of reasons for this: 1) I don't want her to HAVE to do everything independently, or to have an "independent spirit", so to speak. As in, attitude. There's a difference between "individual" and "independent". And 2) because she does many other things by herself throughout the day... why does it have to be so in her two favorite subjects, as well? She's a very responsible girl and knows how to meet deadlines, knows how to take initiative to get things done, has taken enough outside classes that she knows how to follow a syllabus, has enough integrity and honesty to grade her own math and science papers, knows how to read directions. So it's not an issue of her "needing" to do ALL her academics by herself so that she can learn responsibility. Make sense? One can be "responsible" without being "independent".

 

(I think of independent as an attitude more than being responsible. Lots of people are independent, but very irresponsible and without integrity!)

 

 

All that said, here are my suggestions on the curriculum issue itself (not in any particular order) if you want to keep everyone together:

 

1. Continue using MFW elementary and beef it up for the high schooler. Same thing you've always done in MFW, but choosing additional books at h.s. level for the oldest. In MFW elementary, every student is doing Math and Language Arts at their own level (and science from 7th grade on), so why should it be any different now?

 

2. Choose something completely different for American history. We're going with All American History + lots of books from Ambleside and other booklists. The TM has TONS of activities, projects, and book titles you can either do together as a family, or assign to an older student to do individually for credit.

 

3. Do one year of American history instead of two, using Notgrass. (High school program for oldest, and their new middle school program for the other two.)

 

4. Jump back to ancients so that 9th grader can do MFW AHL and they'd still be on the same time period. The only problem with this is that if you're in the Middle Ages right now, you haven't been away from ancients for very long, so you might have mutiny from the younger two. LOL. I would've with my girls, anyway. UNLESS you choose a different program to do ancients with the younger two... so if you did MFW CTG last year, use a different publisher the next time around.

 

Anyway, I hope something I've shared from our experience is helpful. Nothing wrong with the MFW high school curriculum itself... It's a GOOD curriculum. But if you really, really want to keep ALL your kids on the same page for history and Bible, I think you really do lose something unless you start the younger kids back in ancients again at the same time.

[Sweet Home Alabama]

This is what I would do if I had a willing group. It's actually pretty easy to beef up an elementary program for an older child. My oldest is almost finished with 10th grade/WHL time period, ready to begin American history in January or February. After being with MFW for several years (and pausing to try a few other things along the way), we're at the point of being ready to leave MFW altogether. (Except for possibly my youngest, but I haven't decided on that yet. Notice the age gap between my two youngest, and an even bigger learning gap because youngest has some language delays.)

 

Anyway, I felt the same reservations about having oldest doing her own thing for high school that you feel. I listened to the advice that it would be okay and went ahead with it, but it hasn't worked out well. :sad: I wish I could go back and do the last two years differently. Let's face it, history is the best subject to do all together! Math, science, and English are the best subjects to do independently because of skill level, but history.... should be (can be) FUN. My high schooler has NOT had fun with high school history. :glare: She also got to feeling like the Bible had become a textbook rather than a book to be shared from the heart with one another as a family.

 

Can we do Bible together in addition to the MFW schedule? Yes. Can the girls do other subjects/activities like art, cooking, and P.E. together, separate from the academics? Yes. But there's also an issue of TIME. We found that she couldn't do 5 or more hours of academics by herself every day (not counting elective subjects), plus our outside activities, church, chores, personal devotional time, meals (preparing, eating, and cleaning up), etc. and still have any time left for doing "fun" activities with her sisters. Time with her sisters is what fell through the cracks. I actually had the idea of us doing God and the History of Art all together (as Julie mentioned), but we didn't have TIME! I finally sold it recently, unused. I was kind of bummed about that, but there really just wasn't enough time in our week to squeeze it in.

 

Bottom line is, you have to make some choices and decide which areas are the most important to do together vs. individually. Certain things are a bigger priority than others. Some families will choose to have ALL the high schooler's academics done individually, and some will not. But notice I'm using the word "individually" rather than "independently". There's a couple of reasons for this: 1) I don't want her to HAVE to do everything independently, or to have an "independent spirit", so to speak. As in, attitude. There's a difference between "individual" and "independent". And 2) because she does many other things by herself throughout the day... why does it have to be so in her two favorite subjects, as well? She's a very responsible girl and knows how to meet deadlines, knows how to take initiative to get things done, has taken enough outside classes that she knows how to follow a syllabus, has enough integrity and honesty to grade her own math and science papers, knows how to read directions. So it's not an issue of her "needing" to do ALL her academics by herself so that she can learn responsibility. Make sense? One can be "responsible" without being "independent".

 

(I think of independent as an attitude more than being responsible. Lots of people are independent, but very irresponsible and without integrity!)

 

 

 

 

 

Donna, thank you. This is good for me to hear. I'm sort of beginning to soften. MFW is a wonderful curriculum, and I really want to use it. Yet, not at my dd's expense. We will not get this time again, and it is passing by all too quickly.

 

So, with that said I am going to move forward as if we will all study American history together next year. I don't feel completely good about beefing up the elementary MFW; I'd rather start with a program that is written as high school material for my oldest.

 

I would like to have at least history and lit/comp credits. We do AWANA and will continue with this which I would like to make a credit... maybe add to it. There is definitely research to do. I would like to know what organization could "grade" history and lit papers so that we have outside help. Please, someone, pass along some recommendations for this.

 

I'll keep MFW AHL in mind as a backup plan, but I'm going to try to find American history for 9th, 7th, and 4th graders to do. The high schooler will study at a high school level, but will have opportunity to enjoy shared experience with her brothers. I think Notgrass might fit nicely since they have both a high school and middle school program. Could a 4th grader enjoy the middle school program at a watered down level?

 

PLEASE share with me ways you think history would be accomplished easily, effectively, and enjoyably for these grade levels!

Edited November 12, 2011 by Sweet Home Alabama

[Julie in MN]

Julie,

I'll certainly try to come up with a different thing they can do together. This was an excellent idea. I'm not familiar with God and the History of Art... would it be ok to use this with kids studying separate periods in history? IOW... is it dependent on the historical time period? My children LOVE art!

It has several components - art instruction, Christian artists, and historical art. I like the historical art part the best, but I think in high school you might do it all as an elective and not spread it out over all 4 years of history, like MFW does in the elementary years.

 

I kept searching the board last night and came across threads about using Notgrass for American history. This sounds like a way to keep everyone together on the same topic. It is also written to include 3 credits: history, lit, and Bible- although most everyone was in agreement that lit and Bible would have to be beefed up to make a credit.

 

Do you have an opinion about Notgrass American history for high school? I've been planning on using MFW for so long. I hate to change my plans; I love the way MFW is organized and planned out. It would relieve me of a lot of work! It is open and go, and I love that! But if dd would feel left out of family school time, I think I have to consider something else besides MFW.

I think Nan is the one who has really outlined how to use Notgrass American. I haven't used or seen it, and don't like Notgrass enough to want to use it beyond the intro to textbooks that we've used it for in AHL and WHL. I'd search for Nan's posts.

 

I absolutely agree about the Bible credit, and even the English credit, wouldn't be enough in my homeschool.

 

Question regarding MFW: Can you buy components? If we could buy just the writing instruction from MFW, I'm wondering if we could apply it to Notgrass.

Yes, you can purchase components of MFW high school individually. But to get the full English credits, you'd have to probably have the main schedule plus extras, so it could add up. But it would be all scheduled out for you.

 

 

 

I've done high school on my own the first time around. With my older dd, I used Beautiful Feet, Konos History of the World, Sonlight, some Greenleaf, some Diana Waring, probably more. Everything has its good points.

 

One reason I went with MFW for my youngest, despite having liked things in all those previous programs, was that I wanted to spend more time with my child than time planning. So it sounds funny that I'd choose a program that advertises "independence" in order to spend more time "together." But it was the need to plan that got in my way with the other programs, rather than the pre-planning getting in the way of togetherness with MFW -- I am very strong-headed according to my parents, and I have no problem reworking things to suit me, or using them as-is when I don't have the time. But even this year in WHL, I have a few things I will sub in, or plan myself, and those take immense amounts of my time, even when I just want to do one hour on something -- reminding me why I don't want to plan it all myself.

 

A second reason I like MFW is that they use multiple resources. A single textbook "authority" makes me crazy. I think my kids would all like it if I just let one textbook teach them, but that's not why I homeschool :001_huh:

 

And finally, probably the biggest reason I went with MFW for high school is that it goes through the entire Bible, with added resources, line by line, not a summary, no jumping around to random areas until you're dizzy, no skipping the beginning or *reason* for history. All of the programs I used before had good Bible, but none of them (a) started with creation and the fall of man, as the reason for the mess of history, and (b) went through the Bible step-by-step so my child just *knows* the Bible and can't be pulled this way and that by folks who quote random parts of the Bible (for good or ill).

We do the Bible as a family mostly.

 

So that's my long thinking process :tongue_smilie:

Julie

Edited November 12, 2011 by Julie in MN

[cbollin]

my oldest is in WHL, 10th grade.

middle gal is in EX1850 as 7th grade

 

It's really not that bad to have them in separate history at this stage of learning.

 

I've found that we have to be more connected in life instead of school topics.

 

I don't know what to tell you to help you with using curriculum. But it's not that bad when oldest is in "independent" with MFW and next kiddo in completely different history year. So hopefully you'll find something in your family that connects and works in your real world.

 

well, back to chores around here....

-crystal

[mom31257]

If you do want to keep them on the same time period and beef up MFW Elementary for the older student, what about using World and US history textbooks as spines, and add Lightning Literature packs to go along with the time periods? You could also add in some writing instruction from IEW, such as The Elegant Essay.

[mamakim]

If you do want to keep them on the same time period and beef up MFW Elementary for the older student, what about using World and US history textbooks as spines, and add Lightning Literature packs to go along with the time periods? You could also add in some writing instruction from IEW, such as The Elegant Essay.

 

:iagree: This! This would still give you the scheduling aspect of MFW, keep your dc together, and be solid high school material, too! We've been using Lightning Lit to go along with our homebrewed history off and on over the last couple of years, and really have enjoyed it.

 

I don't feel passionately about having my high schoolers working from a different textbook, independently, but what I've valued over the years about having them all on the same cycle is the continual conversations they have with each other. The youngers will share some bit of trivia they picked up that wasn't mentioned in the olders' material, or an older will be involved in a conversation with me about something in their work and a younger will listen in and have a comment or question. One of my fav parts of homeschooling, actually.

[3byzaz]

HI - haven't had time to read all the responses. But, i was in a similar dilemma last year. We had ALWAYS done Bible, History and Science together - all three boys. We even did 5 years of Weaver - Bible based unit study. So...it was very hard for me to decide. However, I feel the Lord led us to MFW for HS for my oldest. That meant we had done Ancients in his 7th grade, Middle Ages in 8th and then he had to repeat again. However, he has no complaints and the Bible alone is worth it. I'm not thrilled with the English component, but it's fine for now. He is really enjoying MFW. And, I am enjoying doing America the Beautiful for my younger two. It's been awesome too. So, all that to say you could definitely use AtB as your spine if you decided not to do MFW for two years for modern. I am also fitting in a LITTLE bit of MOH 3 cuz I have it and we used it for Reformation/Renaissance. I wish I could find a good world spine to add alongside AtB. I will probably get SOTW 4 for next year to add in some extra reading. You could easily beef up with extra research and lit. for 9th and 10th. Or, do Notgrass' American and at least stay on the same timeline and do some read aloud's together. My compromise was doing the Apologia Worldview books together - we just read and discuss. We love them - fairly basic, yet awesome stuff. Just supplemental for my 9th ds.

 

HOpe that helps some!!

 

There is also Beautiful Feet???

[Nan in Mass]

...

I think Nan is the one who has really outlined how to use Notgrass American. I haven't used or seen it, and don't like Notgrass enough to want to use it beyond the intro to textbooks that we've used it for in AHL and WHL. I'd search for Nan's posts.

 

 

I kept my two children together for history, and I did outline how I used a history/literature program, but it was TWTM, not Notgrass. Sorry I can't be more helpful!

 

Nan

[Sweet Home Alabama]

I just want to thank you all for your comments! If dd wants to start over with ancients, we'll do MFW. If she decides to stay with us and continue American history as a group, I'm looking at options:

 

Notgrass is one- possibly with America: A Biography (awesome videos) and some Smarr lit guides... maybe the American lit package.

 

There is America: The Last Best Hope with RoadMap.

 

I also found a websitethat uses America: A Narrative History bby Tindall that looks interesting.

 

There is history TWTM way, but that kind of scares me since I don't feel qualified to evaluate the great books.

 

With any of these, I can incorporate the DVD series I have from History Channel... America, The Story of US. I could use the on-line helps for this.

 

I feel better after a bit of research. There are some practical options.

 

I posted today asking about an on-line writing class that would tie in with history. If I could find that, it would be easy to have dd read the history, complete maps, timeline, etc... and do the historical writing in the on-line class. I definitely want to tie in history with literature/composition.

 

Hoping for more ideas and thankful for your help!