CC vs CW vs WWS

[lewelma]

We are using WWS and loving it, but I am looking to the future and considering CC or CW when done with WWS in 4 yrs (I assume her WWSt will not be done for my ds).

 

Obviously, CW has grammar, spelling, logic integrated in and CC does not. But I was more curious about the differences in how CW and CC teach writing, especially for the logic and rhetoric stages. And how this may or may not be similar to WWS.

 

Can anyone enlighten me?

 

Thanks,

 

Ruth in NZ

[Create Your Ritual]

This is such a hard question to answer.. I hope someone else chimes in for you. ;-) I am using CC, but also WWS right now.

[Create Your Ritual]

I will say that from what I know of CC it generally starts in 4th/5th grade, and moves through the stages until about 9th. I know of people using the first stages in a later grade, and they are able to move through them more quickly than my kids are. We are on Fable right now. I haven't compared it to CW, so I don't know if they teach the same things. CC teaches 18 figures of description to use in the narration of the fable. Things like anemographia (vivid description of wind), astrothesia (vivid description of stars), and many others describing character, dialogue, surrounding area, etc. At the time I started teaching these I happened to be reading Villette by Charlotte Bronte and was so pleased to find many of the figures of description within that novel. I would imagine that it would be the same for many classic works.

 

The other thing I am enjoying about CC is the sentence variation or copia exercises. They begin right at the Fable level and teach the student how to retell a sentence a number of ways by switching the sentence structure or using synonyms. We are pleased with the Fable stage, and will start on the Narrative stage after 10 weeks of Fable.

 

I would love to hear how it compares to CW. I know from the 6 weeks of using WWS that there are quite a few differences, at least initially, in the way the programs are taught. However I am not of the mind to be able to describe those differences. I don't want to sound as if I am choosing one over the other. I think it is just a matter of how it is working for your individual student, and if you wish to delve deeply into the progymnasmata.

Edited September 30, 2011 by SaDonna

[lewelma]

Ah, does CC not go past 9th? That might make my decision very easy as I am looking for high school material.

 

What do you like about the progymnasmata?

[Create Your Ritual]

You may want to check my facts with looking through the samples, or PM 1Togo and she would know for sure. ;-) I have a lingering cold and am not quite articulate enough today. ;-) Although we are in the Fable Stage, it seems to work directly with CW Aesop, CC Narrative seems to equate to CW Homer, etc. So, I can't say that CC is not a high school level curriculum, only that I know him to begin Fable around 4th or 5th grade.

 

Having only utilized WT1, and now CC Fable, all I can say is that my dc enjoy it immensely. It makes sense to them. They are integrating the Figures of Description even when they are not assigned and everything seems to be progressing in an orderly fashion. I have yet to hit Chreia/Maxim and the higher levels, so hopefully someone who is there will respond.

 

From what I can gather at least, with looking over CW Homer and CC Narrative, Homer includes modern writing instruction as well. How either of these compares with WWS I do not know.. perhaps with the addition of the modern spin CW would look more closely related to WWS? I am not sure. I am going to let someone else take up the reigns on that one. ;-)

[lewelma]

Thanks for that. Feel better soon.

[1Togo]

The upper levels of CC are high school level and quite complex, so CC does not stop at 9th grade. Each level takes one semester to one year, depending on the student. CC would be followed by rhetoric.

Edited September 30, 2011 by 1Togo

[lewelma]

Togo1, do you prefer CC to CW and if so, why?

 

CC would be followed by rhetoric

 

So do the upper levels of CC not cover rhetoric?

 

thanks

[1Togo]

I've never worked with CW, so I can't compare. CC does not cover rhetoric. Neither does CW or WWS.

[lewelma]

Ahhh, I see my confusion now. I have read on the High School board recently that others have used and loved CC or CW. I assumed that meant CC and CW were high school level material, which equated to rhetoric for me.

 

Thanks,

 

Ruth

[1Togo]

Both CC and CW include high school material. Most students won't study rhetoric until late high school, and some won't study it at all. Mastering all 14 levels of the progym is a challenge.

[siloam]

We are using WWS and loving it, but I am looking to the future and considering CC or CW when done with WWS in 4 yrs (I assume her WWSt will not be done for my ds).

 

Obviously, CW has grammar, spelling, logic integrated in and CC does not. But I was more curious about the differences in how CW and CC teach writing, especially for the logic and rhetoric stages. And how this may or may not be similar to WWS.

 

Can anyone enlighten me?

 

Thanks,

 

Ruth in NZ

Ruth,

 

I will take a stab at this, but realize I am only so far into CW...then my information is from looking at samples, and tidbits I have picked up from users who are farther than I. Then with WWS I have only done a little reading and looking at samples. This may not be dead on.

 

CW seems to be much more focused on practice, on end game writing and on logical choosing of material. WWS seems to me more focused on practical writing, outlines and reports with corresponding documentation.

 

They do overlap.

 

I prefer the WWE method of teaching summaries for outlining so we do that before starting Aesop, then the kids are prepped for the outlining done in Homer.

 

But I love how CW incorporates grammar into the program. One of my biggest problems as a math person learning to write is that I didn't know how to work with language. CW teaches that and has lots of practice. To much for some, but I was a kid who got it right off, then forgot it. If a teacher handed back a paper and told me a sentence was awkward I couldn't figure out how to change it to save my life. CW works with synonyms, tense, plural/singular, quotes, moving clauses and such so much that it becomes second nature. The six sentence shuffle which covers this is thought over 2 years then continued once a week for a 3rd year. I don't know yet if it goes in to the 4th year. That sort of continued long term use is needed here.

 

That said I see where WWS might fill a very practical need in learning how to outline books for college study. How to write basic reports with proper documentation. CW has covered much of this, it is not that my dd couldn't do it. I think WWS would just simply her thinking so she knew exactly what to do and nail it. Thus I will probably have her finish the first year of Diogenes, then do WWS level 1, then finish the second year of Diogenes.

 

Long term though I like what I hear about CW. I am sure someday Susan might but out something comparable, but right now there isn't anything. Long term CW combines writing and a logic program to work on choosing one's words carefully in order to best communicate a point or make an argument. They aren't just putting words on paper trying to fill space.

 

Here they will probably meet different needs and play different rolls. If you can only do one, then WWE/WWS would be the more practical choice. If you can manage CW then I think there is a lot to be gleaned there, especially for the child who is not language intuitive, though it has also worked for my dd who is language intuitive.

 

Heather

[Heather in VA]

 

 

CW seems to be much more focused on practice, on end game writing and on logical choosing of material. WWS seems to me more focused on practical writing, outlines and reports with corresponding documentation.

 

They do overlap.

 

 

Long term though I like what I hear about CW. I am sure someday Susan might but out something comparable, but right now there isn't anything. Long term CW combines writing and a logic program to work on choosing one's words carefully in order to best communicate a point or make an argument. They aren't just putting words on paper trying to fill space.

 

Here they will probably meet different needs and play different rolls. If you can only do one, then WWE/WWS would be the more practical choice. If you can manage CW then I think there is a lot to be gleaned there, especially for the child who is not language intuitive, though it has also worked for my dd who is language intuitive.

 

Heather

 

 

This is an excellent evaluation. I have done CW through Plutarch. The program is definitely through high school. Herodotus and Plutarch are high school level writing. From what I can tell from the samples and what SWB said on the 'Questions' thread, WWS will not touch the argumentative (persuasive) essay or the rhetoric studies associated with creating the kind of arguments necessary to make these essays effective. Herodotus does this very well.

 

While I think doing WWE/WWS and then entering the CW sequence down the road is definitely possible, it would be very difficult to do Herodotus without at least doing one of the Diogenes levels so you wouldn't be able to skip those. I used only CW with my oldest and am planning on a combination for my younger two for the reasons Heather explained. If I had to pick only one, I'd use CW. This isn't because I don't like WWE/WWS but because I know that the high school level of CW is fantastic and I don't want my kids missing that. If SWB had a high school level of her writing program I could look at the as an option because she does create very step-by-step programs which is great. But the ability to develop effective arguments is so important and very well done in Herodotus. My daughter has told me she is taking her Herodotus book with her to college.

 

Heather

[lewelma]

Thanks so much for these reviews.

 

Heather (either one :001_smile:), is it possible to do CW without using the grammar? Or just doing it as a brief review? My son has a great grammar program that he has been doing since 2nd grade, which I don't want to switch. However, he has not done any diagramming, so that would be something we could use from CW.

 

I just don't want to get an integrated program, take out 1/2 of it, and be left with something that makes no sense.

 

Also, when does the grammar drop out and the "theory" part turn into Traditional Logic?

 

Ruth in NZ

[chai]

Thanks so much for these reviews.

 

Heather (either one :001_smile:), is it possible to do CW without using the grammar? Or just doing it as a brief review? My son has a great grammar program that he has been doing since 2nd grade, which I don't want to switch. However, he has not done any diagramming, so that would be something we could use from CW.

 

I just don't want to get an integrated program, take out 1/2 of it, and be left with something that makes no sense.

 

Also, when does the grammar drop out and the "theory" part turn into Traditional Logic?

 

Ruth in NZ

 

I'm not a Heather, but I can answer this. You can easily do CW with your own grammar program. Harvey's is scheduled into CW, but that is a separate book. There is some grammar integrated into studying the models, but you will probably find those very useful for practical application. Grammar continues through Diogenes. (We are currently i Diogenes, Chreia.) Traditional Logic is scheduled in at the next level.

[Kathie in VA]

I've done CW thru Diogenes and some Rod & Staff Eng. I'm using WWE 1 with my 1st grader this year.

 

From what I see, Writing With Style (the high school level) will cover rhetoric and the progymnasmata. (taken from WEE The Complete Writer textbook)

 

I loved CW for a long time but started having trouble getting my kids to do all the different little tasks and I began to want something that they could just get done ... aka R&S Eng. ...oh just shoot me now...

 

Now I see WEE and WWS. I like this as it seems like another avenue to get to and thru the progym but in a more systematic, step by step manner. I started my 1st grader on WEE 'cause CW doesn't really start till 3rd anyway. Still debating on my 6th grader who has done CW Aesop and is now more then 1/2 way thru R&S Eng 5. (got as far as printing off the sample WWS... still debating). My 10th grader is still working on R&S Eng 9 (thought it would move faster but it's not the curriculum, it's him :toetap05::banghead:).

 

ug.... time to change a diaper! :glare:

Edited October 3, 2011 by Kathie in VA

[lewelma]

Kathie,

 

Thanks for that. I've been looking at the samples, but I just am not getting the whole picture yet.

 

What little pieces to they have to do each day? or each week? Why did the tasks become so difficult to do?

 

I would love to go with SWB high school WWStyle but it won't be done in time for us. We are currently using WWS and loving it, but I am trying to plan for High School. If I choose CW, then I may have to pull out of WWS next year to do the lower level CW so he will be ready for the Higher level CW. Very frustrating.

 

Thanks,

 

Ruth

[Create Your Ritual]

Ruth, it doesn't sound like you are planning on CC, but I will say that he has fairly extensive samples of each stage on his website. http://www.classicalcomposition.com, and it may help you figure out the nuances of each a bit better. He fully explains the premise behind them within the samples. I would think that it might help understand the progym. in general, regardless of which path you choose.

 

Also, this website might help.

 

http://grammar.about.com/od/pq/g/progym1term.htm

 

I certainly don't know much beyond the first two stages yet.

[dmrranch]

Well, I too have been struggling with the whole high school, CW or WWS then what sequence. I posted what my plan looks like on the sticky for WWS but I have to admit it includes dropping out of CW.

 

However, Heather, do you think a child could finish WWS4 (I know we haven't seen it but after looking at S&S of WWSkill) and then go into Herodotus? Or, would they need Chreia first as the CW website indicates?

[siloam]

Thanks so much for these reviews.

 

Heather (either one :001_smile:), is it possible to do CW without using the grammar? Or just doing it as a brief review? My son has a great grammar program that he has been doing since 2nd grade, which I don't want to switch. However, he has not done any diagramming, so that would be something we could use from CW.

 

I just don't want to get an integrated program, take out 1/2 of it, and be left with something that makes no sense.

 

Also, when does the grammar drop out and the "theory" part turn into Traditional Logic?

 

Ruth in NZ

Yes I use Analytical Grammar, and I do use the parsing in CW as well, but you could easily skip the parsing done on day 2.

 

Though I wouldn't advise skipping the applied grammar in the six sentence shuffle. You could only do one sentence a week instead of two, though.

 

There is optional diagramming in Aesop, and quite a bit of diagramming tough in Homer with the six sentence shuffle. Though I always allowed my dd to use the TM to correct her diagram before moving on to do the rest. I wanted her to have what was going on in the sentence correct in her mind as she moved ahead more than I wanted her to get it right the first time.

 

I don't know about the upper levels...yet. :D

 

Heather

[siloam]

Well, I too have been struggling with the whole high school, CW or WWS then what sequence. I posted what my plan looks like on the sticky for WWS but I have to admit it includes dropping out of CW.

 

However, Heather, do you think a child could finish WWS4 (I know we haven't seen it but after looking at S&S of WWSkill) and then go into Herodotus? Or, would they need Chreia first as the CW website indicates?

Not sure yet, just haven't gotten there yet to see what parts they build on.

 

Heather

[dmrranch]

Well, I too have been struggling with the whole high school, CW or WWS then what sequence. I posted what my plan looks like on the sticky for WWS but I have to admit it includes dropping out of CW.

 

However, Heather, do you think a child could finish WWS4 (I know we haven't seen it but after looking at S&S of WWSkill) and then go into Herodotus? Or, would they need Chreia first as the CW website indicates?

 

Heather in VA, or anyone that has used the upper levels, what do you think?

[Kathie in VA]

Oh I realized another difference between WWSkill and CW. The WWSk level 5 is written to the student. There are plenty of suggestions in the TE to show us how to help them but it is a beginning for them to learn to work on their own. CW begins writing directly to the student in the Diogenes level (~7th grade) and more so in the Herodotus level (~9th grade).

 

 

Kathie,

Thanks for that. I've been looking at the samples, but I just am not getting the whole picture yet.

 

What little pieces to they have to do each day? or each week? Why did the tasks become so difficult to do?

 

I would love to go with SWB high school WWStyle but it won't be done in time for us. We are currently using WWS and loving it, but I am trying to plan for High School. If I choose CW, then I may have to pull out of WWS next year to do the lower level CW so he will be ready for the Higher level CW. Very frustrating.

 

Thanks,

 

Ruth

 

hmm the little pieces would be all the common place book entries (aka definitions) and the extra reading that is helpful but not require to do the work (can you see I have lazy kids?). It also seemed to have only a little on applying the ancient methods of writing to modern writing. Well it looked to be fine but when my kids had to write for something else, outside of CW, I really needed to help them transfer their skills over to something that wouldn't sound strange today.

 

Don't get me wrong, I till like CW and I'm still drawn to it. I'm just so disappointed that I finally got to Herodotus (the level with logic that I've been waiting for) and I realized that we needed something he could get done faster. He is so spacey that it was taking soo long to get each week done and he was just falling too far behind. :glare:

[Create Your Ritual]

I would love to see some upper level CW or CC writing, just to get a feel for what kind of language is coming across on paper that you are talking about Kathie in VA. In the Writing forums I don't see it at the high school level, and I can find only Fable level in the K-8. Anyway, I see enough examples of IEW, but just never this more classical methodology to be able to tell. I like where CC is taking us, but I am not in the upper levels, so I don't know ultimately what things will 'sound' like.

 

I am currently working through both WWS and CC Fable with my dc and that is working fine for us. I notice discrepancies in the way things sound on paper right now for us as well, but it is leaning more towards liking CC better. However I can see in weeks to come WWS concentrates more on copia as well, and I like the writing using an overall metaphor assignment WWS has. I think both curriculums offer something the other doesn't, but that is just me saying it while just crossing the starting line so to speak. ;-)

 

Anyway, all that said I would LOVE to see samples of writing at Homer, and up.

[dmrranch]

Lewelma,

 

You might look at recent posts on the sticky for WWS. SWB looked at my plan there. Of course, I have an older student right now but this might help you see how you could work it out with WWS.

[Create Your Ritual]

Having said all of that, I don't think that is the issue with the CC Fable and Narrative stages, as I find them to be very beneficial (at least within CC) to adding to a descriptive voice..but I am not confident enough to abandon anything, including WWS, at this point. Even when I see the fact that students who have used CC throughout high school are getting stellar marks on their exams, I still want to SEE examples.

 

I do think that Memoria Press (??) is reworking CC a bit, and I may find my answer there with the online teacher and their version of the CC curriculum re written for a more modern audience. I can't say for sure, and am really not qualified to at this point.

 

I would not allow my kids to sound off in their writing, and I can see where some might take the entire curriculum that way. Ultimately to me, CC and CW are about the organization of the material and how to present it to best articulate the point of the essay. But, again, I would STILL like to see examples. lol.

 

The other day I posted about being frustrated with an assignment in WWS, and how it looked compared to CC. But when I stand back and look, I think these curriculums are always going to hit on a different spot, at least initially.. case in point when I am seeing better writing in CC right now than in WWS, but then I look down the road at WWS and see other types of instruction that will bring something else to the table.

 

I just have to keep to the big picture here. I want my dc to be able to articulate themselves well, organize their thoughts well, and say SOMETHING within their essay that moves me. They have a lot of years of practice ahead of them, and I am at the point where I am not closing the door on anything. ;-)

[1Togo]

MP is not rewriting CC. They are reformatting it, but the content will remain the same.

[Heather in VA]

Well, I too have been struggling with the whole high school, CW or WWS then what sequence. I posted what my plan looks like on the sticky for WWS but I have to admit it includes dropping out of CW.

 

However, Heather, do you think a child could finish WWS4 (I know we haven't seen it but after looking at S&S of WWSkill) and then go into Herodotus? Or, would they need Chreia first as the CW website indicates?

 

Sorry I didn't get back right away here. I would not recommend skipping Diogenes before Herodotus. Without seeing WWS4 I couldn't say if I'd recommend both Maxim and Chreia before Herodotus or if just one would be ok but they teach some skills, terminology and concepts that will not be in WWS4 (because they are progymnamasta specific) and are critical to understanding Herodotus.

 

Just guessing based on what I see in WWS's scope it might be possible to do WWE/WWS up through WWS3 and then move to Chreia and on to Herodotus and upper CW levels. If someone did that approach I would still recommend buying the Homer Core book and working through some of the skills like the six sentence shuffle.

 

Heather

[lewelma]

Thanks everyone for all these ideas. It is really helping me plan.

 

Does anyone have a suggestion for a book I could read about the progymnasmata and how to teach it, without it being an actual curriculum?

 

Thanks,

 

Ruth

[Tullia]

Thanks everyone for all these ideas. It is really helping me plan.

 

Does anyone have a suggestion for a book I could read about the progymnasmata and how to teach it, without it being an actual curriculum?

 

Thanks,

 

Ruth

 

My favorite reference for the progym is Frank. J. D'Angelo's Composition in the Classical Tradition. It's a college textbook written with pre-law students in mind, but it gives a good overview of each exercise. I used it when we were waiting for the next CW volume, with a few Omnibus I assignments, and in addition to the Classical Rhetoric with Aristotle assignments. Corbett's Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student is another helpful textbook which also incorporates logic. They are both texbooks which can be obtained second-hand for a reasonable price. I was able to find new "still in shrink wrap" copies through Amazon Marketplace for considerably less than the list price--they were gifts from my always supportive of hsing dh :). [ETA: I don't want to be insensitive to anyone whose family isn't on board with hsing--just to brag on my dh's willingness to trust me even though he knows me better than anyone--and that includes my worst self.]

 

SaDonna, I wish I could share some of ds' writing from Homer and Diogenes. I saved all that somewhere, but it's been a couple of years since he graduated and all the work I saved is buried...somewhere...in a large walk-in closet, the construction of which has turned out to be a not so good idea :glare:. I hope someone whose work is more current will share.

 

This is just an aside about the role rhetoric plays in Classical Writing. Lene and Tracy and the other CW authors tend to look at rhetoric as a continuum which encompasses the entire spectrum of language arts development. If you take a literal view of Aristotle's definition of rhetoric, an infant who's learned to get attention by smiling can be said to be practicing rhetorical arts. ;) CW Aesop touches on the canons of invention, arrangement, and style and the later books I've seen continue that in an explicit way. The CW poetry volumes fold in the other two canons of memorization and delivery. I believe that CW will include more specific rhetorical instruction in Demosthenes which I have not seen.

 

The way I usually explain the progym, irrespective of a particular curriculum, is that it is the traditionally used medium through which rhetorical skills are progressively developed. Because of the way classical education is usually implemented, it sometimes has the reputation of being depressingly sequential and linear. However, my mental picture of the trivium is three dimensional and one that I find difficult to describe verbally. That may be simply a function of my own quirks, though. :D

Edited October 5, 2011 by Martha in NM
clarity