How much time... (Latin, math, etc.)

[Aubrey]

Ds (10yo) had a Latin assignment on Tues--translate 14 lines from the book. He took a LONG time to do it, but I was cleaning house, helping other kids, etc, so...I didn't really notice soon enough that that was all he'd done. In general, this was not due to goofing off or a bad attitude, although there may have been some 10yo spacing out, iykwim. :001_huh:

 

I checked his work. His *Latin* was nearly perfect. But he'd randomly skipped a line (didn't translate it), failed to capitalize the beginnings of sentences, misspelled some words (that he should have known or that were names, ie already in the text to be copied), & left out quite a bit of punctuation--quotation marks, periods, etc.

 

We talked about it, the next day he was supposed to correct it. After overlooking one too many errors, I had him redo it from scratch. FIVE hours later, he was done, including corrections. Again, punctuation, capitalization, etc. For the most part, I made him find his errors himself the second time. (On the first copy, he circled errors in green pencil, & I circled the ones he still overlooked in purple.)

 

He's doing the same thing in math & w/ his chores. Taking. for. ever. Some goofing off, but less than when he was 6, you know. Not enough that I think that's the problem. This morning, he got up & started working on his math w/out even being told--before I got up--so I don't think it's primarily an attitude issue, although that can pop up a little here & there.

 

When I got up this morning, I sat with him to check his math & drink coffee. I don't know how long he'd been working, but he'd done 3-4 problems--that's all. I might think he was having trouble w/ the concept, but the *concept* is easy for him. On the harder problems, he actually works faster.

 

Ok, after typing all of this out...could he be bored? Do I need to move him a little faster through these subjects he's good at to get to something more challenging? As far as his mistakes in Latin, I've thought about addressing those separately w/ some grammar worksheets, but at the rate he's going, I hate to add anything to his day!

 

Fwiw, he took a couple of years to do Lively Latin, & this year he's using Latin Prep. We're on Singapore 5A, using the tb, wb, IP, & CWP. I'd say he loves the CWP--begs to do work from that one for FUN, but is less enamored w/ the others. The last couple of weeks have really felt like overkill w/ long division in those books, but the CWP is covering area of triangles, & we're both loving that so much, we designed our own version of Pictionary based on geometry. :lol: He doesn't understand why nobody would buy it.

 

Anyway...thoughts? He's barely touched any of his other subjects because he's so behind this week, & I...don't know what to do.

[Susie in CA]

Yes, I think he may be bored.

 

You could move on to more difficult work or increase workload.

 

For us increasing the work load works better. I don't give my kids more math or more latin, but we do more content subjects. A. Lot. More. We will start doing history 4 days a week and science 4 days a week. In the afternoons, if time permits we'll move on to more projects, art, building, games etc. It seems that they NEED a lot more to do and to think about. This seems to be working well for us for now.

[SewLittleTime]

He sound a lot my oldest. No advice, but I can offer a :grouphug:.

 

Listening in though. :bigear:

[EKS]

My kids will slow down like this for two reasons. The first is if the work is too easy. It just doesn't engage them enough to pay attention to it. The other is if they get the idea that there's too much. My (almost) 10yo would freak out at having to translate 14 lines in one day. I doesn't matter if it could be done in a reasonable amount of time. If he gets it in his head that it's too much, things grind to a halt. Same with math. If he perceives that there are too many problems, he'll take forever. It's all attitude and psychology. It has nothing to do with it being too much or too hard.

 

My older son has ADHD. He would do what I just described for my younger one, but the ADHD makes it a lot worse. For him, medication (we started when he was 12) really helps. I'm not suggesting that your child has ADHD, but that type of behavior is something that kids with ADHD will display.

Edited September 23, 2011 by EKS

[didadeewiththree]

With Latin sometimes taking over 45 min to do, I am now just having 45 min as a cut off time. I make sure he is doing the right work and talk to him abt it for like 5 min and when time is up and he is not finished, we either save it for tmrw or if we have idle time at night, he can finish up.

 

I just figure that he has too many other things to get checked off his planner than to spend any more time on one subject. After a while, he probably doesn't retain all the info and could just be thinking abt all the mistakes hes made. Maybe watch him do it for awhile, making sure he's on the right track, then tell him he need to get such and such done by whatever time. Maybe he can somehow be motivated to quicken up the pace so that he can move on to other subjects. Perhaps a reward system, like getting points earned for completing all work by the end of the week, or something to show him that he working toward a goal.

[Aubrey]

Yes, I think he may be bored.

 

You could move on to more difficult work or increase workload.

 

For us increasing the work load works better. I don't give my kids more math or more latin, but we do more content subjects. A. Lot. More. We will start doing history 4 days a week and science 4 days a week. In the afternoons, if time permits we'll move on to more projects, art, building, games etc. It seems that they NEED a lot more to do and to think about. This seems to be working well for us for now.

 

Well...we're not getting to other subjects (this week) because of the time spent on these subjects. He's said he wants to finish 2 yrs of math in 1 year this year so he can start Algebra next fall (there are some specific math classes he wants to get to in high school).

 

If anything, the workload overall is too much. The workload in math is definitely too much, & I'm planning to refile that subject this weekend--I only did a few weeks' worth, so that if double speed was too much, I wasn't stuck refiling a ton).

 

So I don't think it's a quantity issue. But maybe at this pace, he doesn't need as much practice. In math. Latin...if I let him address the grammar in another context, I think he'd not only be happier, he'd remember that he likes the subject because he IS so good at the translating. But can I justify overlooking capitalization errors in a 10yo? I mean, I could point them out w/out making him correct them...oh my gosh, that would be awful, wouldn't it? :svengo:

[Aubrey]

My kids will slow down like this for two reasons. The first is if the work is too easy. It just doesn't engage them enough to pay attention to it. The other is if they get the idea that there's too much. My (almost) 10yo would freak out at having to translate 14 lines in one day. I doesn't matter if it could be done in a reasonable amount of time. If he gets it in his head that it's too much, things grind to a halt. Same with math. If he perceives that there are too many problems, he'll take forever. It's all attitude and psychology. It has nothing to do with it being too much or too hard.

 

The Latin book is divided into lessons--2.1, 2.2, etc. I just assigned one. But I guess I could break the longer translations down into more than one sitting if not more than one lesson (although I could do the latter, too). I hadn't even thought about the results of it *looking* like a lot to him.

 

He has had too much math. It's by his own choice, but it's taken me all week to see that I really do need to tell him NO because he's not getting to his other subjects. And...it's easy to forget how much it is & gripe at him for not finishing. :tongue_smilie:

 

My older son has ADHD. He would do what I just described for my younger one, but the ADHD makes it a lot worse. For him, medication (we started when he was 12) really helps. I'm not suggesting that your child has ADHD, but that type of behavior is something that kids with ADHD will display.

 

Yeah, I've wondered about ADHD. It runs HEAVILY in both sides of the family. That's something I'm happy to check when I can, but for now...:tongue_smilie:

[Aubrey]

With Latin sometimes taking over 45 min to do, I am now just having 45 min as a cut off time. I make sure he is doing the right work and talk to him abt it for like 5 min and when time is up and he is not finished, we either save it for tmrw or if we have idle time at night, he can finish up.

 

I just figure that he has too many other things to get checked off his planner than to spend any more time on one subject. After a while, he probably doesn't retain all the info and could just be thinking abt all the mistakes hes made. Maybe watch him do it for awhile, making sure he's on the right track, then tell him he need to get such and such done by whatever time. Maybe he can somehow be motivated to quicken up the pace so that he can move on to other subjects. Perhaps a reward system, like getting points earned for completing all work by the end of the week, or something to show him that he working toward a goal.

 

I've tried rewards, but in general, they just stress him out, & when he gets panicked or stressed, he quits working completely. He'll just stare at the page & half-cry. :glare:

 

Yesterday, I did half a section of his math for him, race-style. Of course I beat him, but then he started complaining that my side of the page was easier than his side. (Oh brother) Anyway, then he had to grade my side, & I realized (don't tell him), he didn't get out of anything. He still had to work them all out to see if I was right, & w/ my pg brain, there was a chance of finding a mistake. That kind of thing usually motivates him. :lol:

[Aubrey]

One more question, guys--

 

If you have a kid doing translations, & the language part is right, what do you do about (a lot of) mistakes in things like capitalization, spelling, etc.?

 

When I ask him, he knows the answers, so it's not a lack of information. I guess it could be lack of practice, but he says things like, "I didn't know quotation marks mattered." It sounds...lazy, to me.

 

First round: I know it can be hard for kids to think about two things at once, so no big deal. Now that you've done the assignment, go back & check your work. Check your spelling. Check your periods, capital letters, etc.

 

He'll find a mistake or two. On a good day, he might find 5 in a paragraph. But he leaves enough behind that I'm still aggravated.

 

He's almost 11. He's in 5th grade. I think these are kind-of big problems for that age. I don't want to TORTURE him over them, but...I'm not really a softy, either.

 

Any good, solid, middle-of-the-road, calm, rational advice?

 

Today he turned in a page of answers (not for Latin) that was done on the back side of the paper (we've gone over this & it hasn't been a problem in a couple of years), done in print (I'm enforcing the cursive rule after saying I would for two years), & w/ a spelling mistake: 'girlls.' ONE spelling mistake isn't a big deal to me, IF it's age-appropriate. UGH!

 

I HATE making him redo stuff. I hate the wasted time, the frustration, etc. Since he's already taking too long/going too slowly w/ SOME stuff, I hate to add to that w/ the stuff he likes. (This was logic, one of his fav subjects.)

 

WWYD?

[redsquirrel]

sounds like a bad case of 10 year olditis. If it were my kid, I would consider cutting down on the length of some activities. I find with my kid, I get a much higher quality of work if it looks managable. He is one that would just collapse in the face of a whole page to translate. He is a hard worker, don't get me wrong, but I get better work out of him if it looks manageable. Actually, I get better work out of him if I let him look at a big pile of work and let him start to freak out and then I get to say "hey, you know what? Do half today and the other half tomorrow, ok?" That guarantees a big thank you and hard work. :lol:

 

As for all the errors. Well.... I think this is something about which good people can disagree. I would tend to run through the errors with him but not make him redo the work IF it had been done in good faith. If the entire thing was just crap and done with a sullen attitude, then I would force a redo. But, it it is more due to age and something like "I didn't know it mattered"... well... I would fix it with him and tell him next time he is going to have to do it again. That is usually good enough with my kids.

 

Most of the time, in these situations, what I consider poor quality work stems more from me not making my expectations clear. I find I cannot spend enough time explaining enough what I want the assignment to look like. I figure at some point I will start to hear "I know, I know! You don't have to tell me again!" at that point, we will be half way there. I also read all directions to him and have him give me a plan of attack before I let him loose on an assignment. I also ask for a time estimate for the assignment as well. Those two things, done before he starts an assignment can be very helpful.

 

Oh, and I find that checking in with his work early and often can nip lots of problems in the bud. I don't let him work too long without a check in with me. I correct his work every couple lines or every paragraph or so. With some math or logic I am checking almost every problem. And yes, that means sometimes the younger has to wait a moment. I would rather check in a whole lot and correct a problem right away rather than let it go off on an incorrect track. He looks so mature and competent but he still needs guidance and instruction.

[Aubrey]

sounds like a bad case of 10 year olditis. If it were my kid, I would consider cutting down on the length of some activities. I find with my kid, I get a much higher quality of work if it looks managable. He is one that would just collapse in the face of a whole page to translate. He is a hard worker, don't get me wrong, but I get better work out of him if it looks manageable. Actually, I get better work out of him if I let him look at a big pile of work and let him start to freak out and then I get to say "hey, you know what? Do half today and the other half tomorrow, ok?" That guarantees a big thank you and hard work. :lol:

 

I can do that. I started the year (or was it last year--I can't remember now!) by giving them one-week packets of work. You should have seen the color drain from their faces! It took me a couple of weeks to figure out to KEEP that packet for myself & only give them a day's worth. But maybe a whole day is still too overwhelming...I don't know. It would be easy enough to keep those packets, though, & pass out a single subject at a time.

 

As for all the errors. Well.... I think this is something about which good people can disagree. I would tend to run through the errors with him but not make him redo the work IF it had been done in good faith. If the entire thing was just crap and done with a sullen attitude, then I would force a redo. But, it it is more due to age and something like "I didn't know it mattered"... well... I would fix it with him and tell him next time he is going to have to do it again. That is usually good enough with my kids.

 

See...this is my tendency, & I'm afraid that's where he's gotten the lackadaisical attitude. If he doesn't have to redo it, he doesn't seem to care. So I give the blanket statement, for THIS kind of error [insert particular error], you WILL redo the paper. But I HATE to enforce it! Hence being told for 2 yrs that he's going to have to start working in cursive but it never actually happens. He's got awfully good print now, though. :lol:

 

Most of the time, in these situations, what I consider poor quality work stems more from me not making my expectations clear. I find I cannot spend enough time explaining enough what I want the assignment to look like. I figure at some point I will start to hear "I know, I know! You don't have to tell me again!" at that point, we will be half way there. I also read all directions to him and have him give me a plan of attack before I let him loose on an assignment. I also ask for a time estimate for the assignment as well. Those two things, done before he starts an assignment can be very helpful.

 

Yeah, I find myself looking for excuses to make it my fault, though. Sometimes I'll ask him before saying anything, "What's wrong with this?" & he *obviously* knows, so...he KNOWS, kwim?

 

Oh, and I find that checking in with his work early and often can nip lots of problems in the bud. I don't let him work too long without a check in with me. I correct his work every couple lines or every paragraph or so. With some math or logic I am checking almost every problem. And yes, that means sometimes the younger has to wait a moment. I would rather check in a whole lot and correct a problem right away rather than let it go off on an incorrect track. He looks so mature and competent but he still needs guidance and instruction.

 

I pretty much sit with them the whole day. I might fold laundry or help another kid, but (this year) I've been checking most things as they finish. Math is the exception--sometimes I'll lean over & check as he goes or take a half-finished page to grade while he starts a new one & then trade again. But that's kind-of a pg thing. For some reason, the more uncomfortable I get, the more fascinating math gets, & grading his papers entertains me greatly. :lol: Luckily, that doesn't annoy him: when he wants to stay up late, he offers to "do math w/ you, Mama." :lol:

[KAR120C]

One more question, guys--

 

If you have a kid doing translations, & the language part is right, what do you do about (a lot of) mistakes in things like capitalization, spelling, etc.?

 

When I ask him, he knows the answers, so it's not a lack of information. I guess it could be lack of practice, but he says things like, "I didn't know quotation marks mattered." It sounds...lazy, to me.

Before you even look at a paper, ask him specific questions: "Did you write on the front of the paper?" "Did you start every sentence with a capital letter?" (and there should be a pause while he checks - not just an automatic "of course") "Did you end every sentence with the right punctuation?" "Did you check your spelling?"

 

When DS was about that age we did something like this -- his spelling was atrocious (except when it was a spelling lesson) because he wasn't paying any attention to it. So the understanding was that he would be taking several passes through any writing assignment. One (or two) to get his ideas down in order, one for grammar and usage, one for spelling, maybe one for neatness (recopying the edited original).

[Susie in CA]

Well...we're not getting to other subjects (this week) because of the time spent on these subjects. He's said he wants to finish 2 yrs of math in 1 year this year so he can start Algebra next fall (there are some specific math classes he wants to get to in high school).

 

If anything, the workload overall is too much. The workload in math is definitely too much, & I'm planning to refile that subject this weekend--I only did a few weeks' worth, so that if double speed was too much, I wasn't stuck refiling a ton).

 

So I don't think it's a quantity issue. But maybe at this pace, he doesn't need as much practice. In math. Latin...if I let him address the grammar in another context, I think he'd not only be happier, he'd remember that he likes the subject because he IS so good at the translating. But can I justify overlooking capitalization errors in a 10yo? I mean, I could point them out w/out making him correct them...oh my gosh, that would be awful, wouldn't it? :svengo:

 

 

I think I didn't explain myself quite right the first time around. My kids NEED content subject to think about. Not more latin or math, but more of something else. I agree with others on setting a time limit. I would also stay with him while he is working on math/latin to help him stay focused for the time being. I had to do this with my older son.

[TKDmom]

Your ds sounds just like my 10yo dd. I NEED her to be more independent, and it's driving me crazy that I have to sit next to her and keep her focused on each doing each problem. I think she was actually MORE independent in 4th grade. For us, Latin is not the problem--it's math. Yesterday, I handed her a page and a half of math problems, got in the shower, and came back 20 minutes later to see that she had done 3 multiplication problems. She had drawn all sorts of lovely geometric designs on the margins of her paper, though. :glare: I know she's not ADHD, but I have read that gifted kids seem to have attention problems. Maybe what's going on in their heads is just more interesting than anything mom gives them to do?

 

Anyway, with the Latin, can you have him fix problems without actually redoing it? If it's just a capital letter of a question mark, can he just fix the letter or add the punctuation? It doesn't take all that long to do minor fixes. Maybe that's what you're already doing, but I thought I'd mention it.

 

I remember reading Nan in Mass talking about goals for her 16yo being things like learning how to write on the front side of the paper. That was really encouraging for me. I don't have to get it all right today. I still have another 8 years with this kid, and I don't need to panic over little mistakes that will probably iron themselves out later. The big things are making sure that they can actually form coherent thoughts and understand how numbers work. Maybe it's just so much work to learn how to think that they can't stop to look at the minor details.

 

I have started to informally tutor some of the kids that go to Tae Kwon Do with dc. They are in an after school program there and they are supposed to do homework while waiting for their parents. No one else is available to help them with homework so I step in when it's obvious that someone is struggling. I have been appalled at how little they understand what they are doing. Sure they can do all the formatting stuff that dd always forgets, but they don't really understand spelling or grammar or math. It has really helped me to have a better perspective. I would rather dd understand what she's doing and make minor mistakes than to blindly follow rules.

 

Now I can't remember if I actually helped to answer any of your questions...but now I'm ready to tackle a new day and not get frustrated with my oddball children. :lol:

[Aubrey]

Your ds sounds just like my 10yo dd. I NEED her to be more independent, and it's driving me crazy that I have to sit next to her and keep her focused on each doing each problem. I think she was actually MORE independent in 4th grade. For us, Latin is not the problem--it's math. Yesterday, I handed her a page and a half of math problems, got in the shower, and came back 20 minutes later to see that she had done 3 multiplication problems. She had drawn all sorts of lovely geometric designs on the margins of her paper, though. :glare: I know she's not ADHD, but I have read that gifted kids seem to have attention problems. Maybe what's going on in their heads is just more interesting than anything mom gives them to do?

 

Yeah, I can see that, but in this situation? :lol: He's not even drawing geometric designs. Maybe blowing bubbles w/ spit, but that's about it.

 

Anyway, with the Latin, can you have him fix problems without actually redoing it? If it's just a capital letter of a question mark, can he just fix the letter or add the punctuation? It doesn't take all that long to do minor fixes. Maybe that's what you're already doing, but I thought I'd mention it.

 

Yep, we do that, but if he's going through it a THIRD time...sometimes I feel like he needs *motivation* to get it right. I mean, it's hard to fit in a line of translation you skipped, but if you ALSO mark your mistakes, missing some that I pointed out to you, and then I mark your missed mistakes, and then you STILL MISS some, even though they're marked IN COLOR, well...sometimes you just need the joy of redoing it from scratch. :glare:

 

I remember reading Nan in Mass talking about goals for her 16yo being things like learning how to write on the front side of the paper. That was really encouraging for me. I don't have to get it all right today. I still have another 8 years with this kid, and I don't need to panic over little mistakes that will probably iron themselves out later. The big things are making sure that they can actually form coherent thoughts and understand how numbers work. Maybe it's just so much work to learn how to think that they can't stop to look at the minor details.

 

Yeah, I remember reading that from someone, too, so I know it's not just us having the problem, but...he used to do it all the time. It was a real problem when I read that, but we worked on it, & he hasn't done it in years. Which...to me says he knows better.

 

The one he had to redo for being on the back of the paper didn't have much on it, so it didn't take too long, but it also wasn't the only mistake. I couldn't decide what to do about it & then when I realized how many things he needed to fix, I told him to redo it.

[foxbridgeacademy]

My kids will slow down like this for two reasons. The first is if the work is too easy. It just doesn't engage them enough to pay attention to it. The other is if they get the idea that there's too much. My (almost) 10yo would freak out at having to translate 14 lines in one day. I doesn't matter if it could be done in a reasonable amount of time. If he gets it in his head that it's too much, things grind to a halt. Same with math. If he perceives that there are too many problems, he'll take forever. It's all attitude and psychology.

.

 

:iagree:

My Ds also 10 does the same thing ( there is no way I could get him to do 14 lines of anything with out a melt down). He thinks there is too much so he takes forever. Could you try to break up the assignments a bit? Also you may need to sit with him more to get him to make "moving on" a habit. Another suggestion for the latin is to NOT make him do it ALL again. Instead show him his mistakes, discuss where he can do better, fix them to the best of his ability ect... then EXPECT it to not happen again... It will of course, but redoing it completely will only foster resentment and procrastination on his part.