Horse Lovers - A question for you....

[maddykate]

What do you think of Parelli Natural Horsemanship? I am very interested in learning more about this and would like to hear your thoughts.

 

Thanks!

[Journey]

Two things....

 

1.) either you love the concept or detest it....i detest it!

 

but.....

 

2.) show me results...if I saw a horse, that i personally know go from totally crazy totally "obedient" then I will believe in it.

 

The people who run the barn next door to ours totally buy into the concept and they say it works...i've never seen it myself. I've heard hoorrroooorrrr stories about Pat and Linda more times than I care to admit!

[skywards]

I agree with Journey, I've yet to see it actually work.

[Guest submarines]

Is it the same as Nevzorov Haute Ecole?

[obsidian]

Is it the same as Nevzorov Haute Ecole?

 

Are they really advocating that all horse shows should be abolished?:001_huh: or do they just want all horse events removed from the Olympics?

[Guest submarines]

Are they really advocating that all horse shows should be abolished?:001_huh: or do they just want all horse events removed from the Olympics?

 

I have no idea. I'm reading the FAQ now, and it seems all riding is detrimental? I might not be getting it right.

 

[33] Why are we against sport and pleasure riding, eventing, etc.?

 

 

It’s disrespectful and disgusting, almost perverted. Sport dressage, horses that stand all day long in a box and are only taken out when they get ridden. And then they need to walk perfectly and if they make a wrong step they get punished. Forced collection, broken horses with red eyes and dead looks in their eyes. Mouth full of foam and wide open, trying to save the tongue from the silent torture called bit. Used for communication and aid, for the horse only a pain.

 

 

[20] What is Nevzorov Haute Ecole?

 

 

NHE is a philosophy with emphasis on the horse and human relationship based on putting the horse first, with the understanding “the horse is always right†(Alexander Nevzorov).

Putting the horse first means we are listening to the horse and have educated ourselves in the complete physiology of the horse. This enables us to know the when and what to ask of the horse, that is age and developmentally appropriate, plus always listening to the horse as well.

 

Building a relationship with the horse on the horse’s terms which opens the door to greater mutual communication. The use of bits, spurs, whips, halters, horseshoes, etc. is strictly forbidden as these items all do damage to the horse. The horse is not to be "USED" in any way, pleasure riding, equestrian sports, show, or entertainment; the horse is not here for our pleasure. Our first and foremost concern is the total well-being of the horse enabling them to live a glorious life expressed in the pure joy of being.

Carole Graham

 

[17] What is the difference between Nevzorov Haute Ecole and the other schools?

 

 

That’s exactly what Alexander Nevzorov said: “Anything that is done with a help of bit, is not for school, it doesn’t interest us. The elements that are done with the help of bit always have a pain and annoyance to it, or/and submission to it. Laboured movements of dressage horses on all sorts of competitions or in classic schools in Europe can deceive only an outsider. An expert can easily see that ultimate cruelty of the bit in the mouth and use of stick. There isn’t a single dressage horse that was schooled without the pain, beating and a bridle with a bit. Its no use to hide and to discuss it. To deny an influence of pain to biomechanics is very silly. Therefore dressage movements, elements consist of a minimum of more or less natural horse movements and a lot of pain. The new HAUTE ECOLE is a clarification of how one or another element looks in its natural appearance. Clarification of how the horse offers it. The way it looks without any pain. Now, lets think, how much time, a horse can feel comfortable or painless in collection? How the legs will rise during piaffe or a Spanish trot without a bit and punishment? Today’s Nevzorov Haute Ecole is the deepest investigation of natural biomechanics, clarification of horse possibilities and desire. It is clear that any element that requires limited concentration of strength from a horse can only be proposed, upon a condition that a horse is absolutely free. Because of that, the school isn’t interested in sport standards. Sport standards are based on pain and they don’t develop real abilities of a horse. It is clear that I was the first, but guarantee not the last. And it is clear that the masters that will follow, will produce new, clear standards of moves and elements. Today’s reference will be forgotten. Progress is invincible. It’s simple to scream out loud, to be angry and unhappy, but to trash it is unreal".

 

 

Okay, found this:

 

"

He was the first to tell everyone what equestrian sport really consists of:

 

" … equestrian sport by nature can’t be even defined as a sport. Yes, any sport includes records and victories, but these records and victories are gained by one’s own sweat and blood, by one’s own pains and efforts. And equestrian sport (if we study the issue) represents parasitizing on physical abilities of another living being which does not want to be engaged in this sport but forced to it by pain and beating. So why the hell we call it a sport?

Among all sportsmen there are no more than two percent of real sadists, and others just do not realize what they’re doingâ€.

A. Nevzorov “The Horse Crucified and Risenâ€"

 

 

I'm not sure what to think about it. My 9 yo had a couple of lessons and really wants to ride, so I'm trying to learn more about horses. Are bits truly as cruel as he says? DD did ask her teacher about the bits, and she said that they didn't hurt the horse.

[Liz CA]

There is always a middle of the road approach. I have ridden horses, worked with horses who loved to be ridden even by squirmy children and adults with disabilities.

Horse know when you care about them and love them. They are very intuitive and sensitive. Parelli may have seen horrible things and is disgusted by it (referring to the one post above) but I certainly don't think all riding is detrimental.

 

I have seen Parelli during Horse Expos and he is touting certain "tools" too much for my taste. Back then, it was called the "Carrot Stick."

John Lyons repeatedly says in his books and videos not to worry about "tools". Just pick up a stick from the ground. Made a whole lot more sense to me.

If you are looking for sensible (IMHO) training options, I'd look at John Lyons. I had good results with his method and my horse and I bonded very well.

[obsidian]

I'm not sure what to think about it. My 9 yo had a couple of lessons and really wants to ride, so I'm trying to learn more about horses. Are bits truly as cruel as he says? DD did ask her teacher about the bits, and she said that they didn't hurt the horse.

 

Some of that stuff is a bit, um, scary. Notice how they jump to extremes.

 

All horses are kept penned in a stall all day. Not true.

 

The use of a whip is immediately equated to beating. Yes, a whip can be used cruelly, however it can also be used as a reinforcement of the leg and just a tap.

 

All bit are painful and cruel. Sure, if you jerk the bit it is going to be painful. Some bits should not ever be but in a horse's mouth. Some should only be put in a horse's mouth if the rider has very good hands. But, the bit can also be a method of communication that is easy for the horse to understand and can be used subtly.

 

also, they seem to be advocating that you should be your horse's equal. That is not the way a horse looks at the world. There is always a dominate horse, even if the horses are best friends. Your horse can adore you and still accept that you are the leader.

[LittleIzumi]

:001_huh: Woooooow. Any tool can be abused, but a bit or a halter is abusive like a dog collar is abusive--it's not, unless the person working with the animal is using it in a completely inappropriate way to the point that the person should probably not have an animal! And to say every single horse has been "beaten"--seriously?? There are stronger bits and gentler bits, but bits are not in themselves abusive. I have been lately having second thoughts about horses living in stalls most of the day/night, but this is the most extreme I have ever read about. Yikes.

[obsidian]

I just went up and read more thoroughly and am now convinced these people are crazy. They don't allow horseshoes or halters?

 

Also, they seem to believe you cannot have a good relationship with your horse if you restrain him/her at all. This lady, Stacy Westfall uses bits, halters, and horseshoes and look what the end result is. So beautiful.

[Cindyg]

(No, Parelli has nothing to do with Nevzorov.)

 

Oh boy. What a loaded question (for me). I'll try to make it simple:

 

I was heavily involved in the Parelli program for years, and I got a LOT out of it. Over the years, the program changed in a way that left me baffled and disenfranchised. Nonetheless, I still use the basics I learned in Parelli years ago on a daily basis -- more than a daily basis: They have become absolutely second nature to how I interact with my horse. It's a language we both understand.

 

But I can't whole heartedly recommend every facet of Parelli because I don't know what the heck they're doing these days (and it's not for lack of trying).

 

Watch it for free on RFD-TV. Take what you can use and shrug off the rest. Get his original book, Natural Horsemanship from the library. There is brilliance in that book. And, remember, it was written before the rest of the world had thought of NH.

 

DO wear a helmet when you ride, despite the fact that Pat and Linda do not.

 

DO insist that your horse respect you (which Pat does).

 

DO treat your horse with dignity and respect (which some say Pat doesn't).

 

DO buy his halter, leadropes, and carrot stick. People make fun of them and say they're over priced. I've had mine for more than a decade and have never bought another piece of equipment since. That's probably less than one cent per use by now. It's good quality stuff, and it communicates with your horse in a way you'll both appreciate. I ride in his horseman's hackamore and haven't had a bit in my horse's mouth in years. (The latter is not a Parelli mandate; I'm just sharing that that is a quality piece of gear.)

 

If you have other specific questions, please ask.

[obsidian]

Now*she already reads and writes a little* in*Latin(2009).

:confused:Posted about one of the horses (Lipisina).

 

[45] What does Alexander do, if not riding? What about Haute Ecole?

 

NHE is developing, new knowledge is coming, old knowledge is being rethought, values are being revalued. Now Alexander teaches the horses Latin. Details will be available very soon, when the new film is ready.

From the FAQ.

 

[44] Why there have not been new photos in the gallery of Alexander aback for so long?

Are the horses healthy?

 

All the horses are healthy, but there are and will be no riding photos. Alexander stopped riding about two years ago, and is not going to continue this practice.

He doesn't ride on ethical grounds, first of all. And besides, even the most permissive riding doesn't profit anything horse's health.

Apparently he does not agree with riding at all.

 

Forced collection is really a oxymoron, as true collection can not be forced. The so-called forced collection is achieved through the use of bits, bridles, nosebands, running-martingales, spurs and whips. This is accomplished with the rider’s hands pulling and yanking extremely hard on the bit and strong hard kicking with the spurs. The result is a normally beautiful graceful animal moving in severe pain and discomfort which is reflected in almost robotic movement.

Again, he is taking extreme cases and generalizing them to the entire horse world.

[Guest submarines]

I really missed the Latin part? :confused: This is just so odd I wonder if it is a joke? Weird.

[obsidian]

I really missed the Latin part? :confused: This is just so odd I wonder if it is a joke? Weird.

 

I don't know. :001_huh: maybe a translation issue?

[Guest submarines]

(No, Parelli has nothing to do with Nevzorov.)

 

Oh boy. What a loaded question (for me). I'll try to make it simple:

 

I was heavily involved in the Parelli program for years, and I got a LOT out of it. Over the years, the program changed in a way that left me baffled and disenfranchised. Nonetheless, I still use the basics I learned in Parelli years ago on a daily basis -- more than a daily basis: They have become absolutely second nature to how I interact with my horse. It's a language we both understand.

 

But I can't whole heartedly recommend every facet of Parelli because I don't know what the heck they're doing these days (and it's not for lack of trying).

 

Watch it for free on RFD-TV. Take what you can use and shrug off the rest. Get his original book, Natural Horsemanship from the library. There is brilliance in that book. And, remember, it was written before the rest of the world had thought of NH.

 

DO wear a helmet when you ride, despite the fact that Pat and Linda do not.

 

DO insist that your horse respect you (which Pat does).

 

DO treat your horse with dignity and respect (which some say Pat doesn't).

 

DO buy his halter, leadropes, and carrot stick. People make fun of them and say they're over priced. I've had mine for more than a decade and have never bought another piece of equipment since. That's probably less than one cent per use by now. It's good quality stuff, and it communicates with your horse in a way you'll both appreciate. I ride in his horseman's hackamore and haven't had a bit in my horse's mouth in years. (The latter is not a Parelli mandate; I'm just sharing that that is a quality piece of gear.)

 

If you have other specific questions, please ask.

 

Is any of this applicable to a new rider who doesn't own a horse but rides different horses at the stable? DD has learned a LOT about horses this summer--she tells me she can tell how the horse is feeling by the ears, and things like that.

 

Are there good DVDs she can watch that would explore NH, that won't confuse her (I don't think her stables are using it)? (I'm not sure if I'm expressing this right, but I know close to nothing about horses. If she were to relate to her horse differently than the horses owners, would it make any difference?)

 

Right now she's been doing weekly lessons. Is this enough for the horse to know her? We can't afford more. Maybe next summer, but not more than twice a week either. She was also put on a different horse the last time she went. Should she be riding the same horse, or switching?

 

Sorry to highjack. Maybe I should start a new thread.

[Ottakee]

I am sure there is some good but I have also seen some negative--which might be how the person used it. One horse I looked at was trained to "jump" at his owner when she jumped back (mimicing her actions" but to me, that was a dangerous thing (not that the horse was dangerous himself) as I have 2 special needs kids. The last thing I needed was a horse that would jump towards them if they moved rapidly.

 

For some really good reading, check out the books by Mark Rashid. He doesn't have a "method" but rather a philosophy about riding and working with horses. Kathleen Lindley was his apprentice and has a good book also.

 

I also like much of John Lyons stuff, some of Clinton Andersons (but not as much as I used to), Julie Goodnights and Stacy Westfall.

 

I agree with ALWAYS wearing a helmet as even the safest horse in the world could trip and fall down with you.

[Cindyg]

Is any of this applicable to a new rider who doesn't own a horse but rides different horses at the stable? DD has learned a LOT about horses this summer--she tells me she can tell how the horse is feeling by the ears, and things like that.

 

Are there good DVDs she can watch that would explore NH, that won't confuse her (I don't think her stables are using it)? (I'm not sure if I'm expressing this right, but I know close to nothing about horses. If she were to relate to her horse differently than the horses owners, would it make any difference?)

 

Right now she's been doing weekly lessons. Is this enough for the horse to know her? We can't afford more. Maybe next summer, but not more than twice a week either. She was also put on a different horse the last time she went. Should she be riding the same horse, or switching?

 

Sorry to highjack. Maybe I should start a new thread.

 

The best thing I would recommend from Parelli is the book, Natural Horsemanship, which is available from Amazon, from Parelli, many used copies on e-bay, and at many libraries. (It's an old book. Lots of copies.)

 

In addition, Parelli sells a series called "Level 1" that has helped many, many people. You can get this online or from Parelli. The oldest version is a video only series (not available on DVD), and you would need to get this from e-bay. The video boxes are gray. Though it's old, many people think it's the best he ever did.

 

The newer Level 1 is in red boxes, and it is available on DVD (not video). A lot of people swear by this version of Level 1 as well.

 

You can't go wrong with the book, though; especially for the price.

 

I'm a huge fan of starting with lessons, and twice-a-week lessons is fabulous. However, because she's riding different horses each time, and because others are riding the horse too, she's not likely to connect with the horse, or learn to read the horse, the way she will with her own horse or a horse she leases exclusively. It's just not the same intimate relationship. That's OK. Lessons are the perfect way to start.

[Guest submarines]

The best thing I would recommend from Parelli is the book, Natural Horsemanship, which is available from Amazon, from Parelli, many used copies on e-bay, and at many libraries. (It's an old book. Lots of copies.)

 

In addition, Parelli sells a series called "Level 1" that has helped many, many people. You can get this online or from Parelli. The oldest version is a video only series (not available on DVD), and you would need to get this from e-bay. The video boxes are gray. Though it's old, many people think it's the best he ever did.

 

The newer Level 1 is in red boxes, and it is available on DVD (not video). A lot of people swear by this version of Level 1 as well.

 

You can't go wrong with the book, though; especially for the price.

 

I'm a huge fan of starting with lessons, and twice-a-week lessons is fabulous. However, because she's riding different horses each time, and because others are riding the horse too, she's not likely to connect with the horse, or learn to read the horse, the way she will with her own horse or a horse she leases exclusively. It's just not the same intimate relationship. That's OK. Lessons are the perfect way to start.

 

Thank you! We don't have a VHS anymore, so I will try to get the DVDs and the book.

 

The farm owner said that when she leases a horse, she can't have lessons on that horse, unless we pay extra for lessons, so it would get astronomically expensive. The girls who lease horses there are typically teenagers, and don't do lessons anymore.

 

If she is interested only in pleasure riding, at what point can she stop the lessons and just lease the horse?

 

What is the controversy about the Parelli method, though? Too permissive?

[maddykate]

Thank you for the replies. I am not really sure what some of the other information some of you posted was pertaining to, but it didn't seem like it was about Parelli.

 

I have found Pat Parelli's website very informative! And, yesterday, I was able to see how Parelli works - there is a girl at our barn that is a 3 Star Parelli Professional who agreed to work with us - and it was amazing! The things that she is able to get her horse to do and the relationship between her and her horse was simply awe-inspiring. So, I am now convinced that this is the path for us.

 

Through my research, I have seen that there are tons of folks who are opposed to Parelli and the way he approaches horse training, but I sincerely think they are not understanding his method at all. He does ride his horses with bits - he is not against them at all, but feels that there are gentler ways of directing and guiding the horse than yanking on a bit. I agree. Now that I have seen firsthand how it can be, I will not train our horses in any other way. I am excited to get started!

[Cindyg]

Thank you for the replies. I am not really sure what some of the other information some of you posted was pertaining to, but it didn't seem like it was about Parelli.

 

I have found Pat Parelli's website very informative! And, yesterday, I was able to see how Parelli works - there is a girl at our barn that is a 3 Star Parelli Professional who agreed to work with us - and it was amazing! The things that she is able to get her horse to do and the relationship between her and her horse was simply awe-inspiring. So, I am now convinced that this is the path for us.

 

Through my research, I have seen that there are tons of folks who are opposed to Parelli and the way he approaches horse training, but I sincerely think they are not understanding his method at all. He does ride his horses with bits - he is not against them at all, but feels that there are gentler ways of directing and guiding the horse than yanking on a bit. I agree. Now that I have seen firsthand how it can be, I will not train our horses in any other way. I am excited to get started!

 

Maddy Kate, good for you!! I'm excited for you!

[obsidian]

Thank you for the replies. I am not really sure what some of the other information some of you posted was pertaining to, but it didn't seem like it was about Parelli.

 

I have found Pat Parelli's website very informative! And, yesterday, I was able to see how Parelli works - there is a girl at our barn that is a 3 Star Parelli Professional who agreed to work with us - and it was amazing! The things that she is able to get her horse to do and the relationship between her and her horse was simply awe-inspiring. So, I am now convinced that this is the path for us.

 

Through my research, I have seen that there are tons of folks who are opposed to Parelli and the way he approaches horse training, but I sincerely think they are not understanding his method at all. He does ride his horses with bits - he is not against them at all, but feels that there are gentler ways of directing and guiding the horse than yanking on a bit. I agree. Now that I have seen firsthand how it can be, I will not train our horses in any other way. I am excited to get started!

 

No, the other stuff wasn't about Parelli.

 

I'm glad you've found someone experienced to help you and best of luck on your training journey.:001_smile:

[Cindyg]

If she is interested only in pleasure riding, at what point can she stop the lessons and just lease the horse?

 

When you (mom) and the trainer or barn owner (some responsible adult who understand horses) thinks she is SAFE! Lessons are not about learning to show; they are about being safe! Horses -- as wonderful and dreamy as they are -- are accidents waiting to happen; and it requires significant maturity and horse sense to stay safe. But don't let that scare you off. There is nothing better for a girl than a horse. Really.

 

What is the controversy about the Parelli method, though? Too permissive?

 

It's a funny thing -- some think he's too rough and some think he's too soft. Just about everybody who hates him agrees that he's making too much money. (Not including myself in that group!)

 

I think people see his *students* who are trying hard but not too accomplished yet, and they judge the program by their mistakes.

 

There's much to learn in the world of horses. Have your daughter read and watch (and ride) all she can.

[Ottakee]

The farm owner said that when she leases a horse, she can't have lessons on that horse, unless we pay extra for lessons, so it would get astronomically expensive. The girls who lease horses there are typically teenagers, and don't do lessons anymore.

 

If she is interested only in pleasure riding, at what point can she stop the lessons and just lease the horse?

 

?

 

Can you check around for other riding options? Check with local 4H leaders. Often they have a few solid, well trained horses that they will lease for a resonable fee and offer lessons. I know that we can lease one and use it for shows, etc. for $100/month and then lessons are $25/week--but often she could get informal lessons for free during the month as well.

 

I see though that your daughter is only 9. At 9, she needs an adult supervising her and/or riding with her at all times. My daughter has a super broke pony and she is 14 and I am just now letting her ride out alone in certain areas. Kids tend to be overly confident in their abilities and don't realize the dangers that could be there.