Preparing for Organic Chemistry

[nynyny]

Any resources out there to help homeschoolers prepare for organic chemistry in college? I have heard from so many people who struggled with (or dropped) Organic Chem in college.

 

Thanks.

[momofkhm]

I hated organic chemistry in college. I think the only reason I passed was the curve he graded on.

 

For my prof some 20 years ago, it was all about mechanisms. Make sure you know how to "push" electrons around on the page/diagram. I didn't really care how things happened and that was my downfall.

 

I don't really know how to prepare ahead for a class like that. Sorry.

[jazz!]

http://www.khanacademy.org/#organic-chemistry

 

I love Khan Academy. :001_wub:

 

This might be of help during the course too.

[creekland]

I've seen it suggested that a student audit an OChem class at a local cc first over the summer (if possible), then take the class for real at the 4 year school.

 

We haven't seen this work in real life, it was just a suggestion I read that sounded good and I've kept it in mind for when we need it in a couple of years.

[MomsintheGarden]

It's been forever since I took OChem, but my dd just took it last year and loved it. She would say:

 

- Really, really, really know your Gen Chem. Review it over the summer if you need to.

 

- Sit in the front row. Be well-rested and engaged in class.

 

- Develop good study and memorization methods. Some of her techniques included: taking great notes on her tablet computer, doing her O Chem homework first, writing out her own study sheets, making flashcards with 3"x5" index cards, tutoring others, and little songs she and her friends made up.

 

- Start studying in earnest right away.

 

- Get help as soon as you need it. Get to know your professor and the other students in class.

 

- Have good lab technique. Be careful and meticulous, and thorough. Dd and many other students photographed their labs for their books, so get a camera and a color printer (that class cost us some serious ink, besides the $$$ text and lab manual!). Also get a good pair of splash goggles. We got some from Home Depot for about $10, and they were much better than those at the college bookstore.

 

- Have a good attitude. Thinking, "this will be challenging, but I will work hard and hopefully learn a lot," will get you much farther than, "woe is me, I don't think I will survive O Chem."

 

HTH,

GardenMom

[Twigs]

Check out this page from UT Austin.

Click on the little colored boxes across the top of the page (Where e-, etc.)

 

Check out this syllabus - especially toward the end

 

Check out some resources here.

 

Best wishes.

[snowbeltmom]

I've seen it suggested that a student audit an OChem class at a local cc first over the summer (if possible), then take the class for real at the 4 year school.

 

We haven't seen this work in real life, it was just a suggestion I read that sounded good and I've kept it in mind for when we need it in a couple of years.

 

I was thinking of having my oldest audit an organic chemistry class at the community college next year. I was advised by the folks on College Confidential not to do that if he has plans to go to medical school (which he does).

 

I was told that medical schools frown upon any science class taken at the community college - even if the class is audited. The thinking behind this is that it would look like a student needed to take a class twice in order to "get it."

 

During this discussion on College Confidential someone sent me a link to the application for medical school. On the application, it specifically states that the student must list all the college level courses he has taken in high school - even the ones that were audited. (AP classes taken are not to be listed.)

 

I contacted a couple of medical schools specifically asking if taking OChem in high school would be a bad idea; I never received a definitive answer.

 

Just to be on the safe, we have decided to go the AP route and avoid community college classes. My thinking is that there must be some reason why the medical schools are asking students to list the science courses taken at a community college.

[creekland]

I was thinking of having my oldest audit an organic chemistry class at the community college next year. I was advised by the folks on College Confidential not to do that if he has plans to go to medical school (which he does).

 

I was told that medical schools frown upon any science class taken at the community college - even if the class is audited. The thinking behind this is that it would look like a student needed to take a class twice in order to "get it."

 

During this discussion on College Confidential someone sent me a link to the application for medical school. On the application, it specifically states that the student must list all the college level courses he has taken in high school - even the ones that were audited. (AP classes taken are not to be listed.)

 

I contacted a couple of medical schools specifically asking if taking OChem in high school would be a bad idea; I never received a definitive answer.

 

Just to be on the safe, we have decided to go the AP route and avoid community college classes. My thinking is that there must be some reason why the medical schools are asking students to list the science courses taken at a community college.

 

Thanks for that info. Since O Chem is a later course I sort of figured I'd let his med school adviser have the final say on that one, but for now, I think I'll let the idea drop.

 

There is one advantage to cc courses over AP - nice letters of recommendation. If your student can take one or two (not pre-req courses), it's a plus. My guy did sophomore level microbio, got the highest grade in the class (the highest of 4 As), and it's been helpful with the LOR + the unquestionably "real" science lab. I doubt it will hurt him for med school since that's not a pre-req course.

 

Since he might major in microbio (loved the course) he'll likely retake it in his 4 year school anyway, but it still won't hurt.

 

I don't recommend accepting any credits (AP or cc) for Bio or Chem and most 4 year schools will recommend against it as well as there's a definite nick on the application there with med schools - some outright won't let you apply if those credits aren't from a 4 year school. Others are ok with it or are ok if higher courses were taken at the 4 year. I'm not comfortable burning any bridges. Take the AP if they want to for acceptance into college, but then decline the credits.

 

Otherwise, I'm an AP believer when it comes to college prep. And my youngest is in a ps that doesn't offer AP. :tongue_smilie: He's going to be studying outside of school to take some tests himself.

[nynyny]

I find it puzzling that it's okay if my kids receive two years of excellent chemistry instruction from Mr. Moskaluk in order to prepare for General Chem in college, but auditing a CC class to prepare for Organic Chem is frowned upon.

 

Thanks for the great advice everyone. Many good ideas for the organic chem file!

[Medstudent]

Orgo is considered one of the most challenging classes for pre-meds (it was certainly the most challenging one for me). Depending on the college you go to, the professor who teaches it etc, it may be anywhere from challenging to nearly impossible. The reason med schools especially dislike seeing you take orgo at an easier school or take it twice is that it's a big way for them to differentiate among students at your same college or students at colleges of the same caliber. Bio in general isn't super difficult, nor is gen chem, nor is physics. But a lot of people find orgo difficult- so, it makes for a good item to look at if you're a med school admission person. If you get straight A's in your sciences but a C in orgo, it may mean that the other sciences weren't that hard, especially since a number of other applicants from your school did better in orgo than you. I know plenty of people who chose to take it at a different college over the summer to do better on it- I actually took it at Harvard, figuring it wouldn't look as bad and it would almost certainly be easier than the one taught at my school (it was)- and for many, it was frowned upon.

[snowbeltmom]

I find it puzzling that it's okay if my kids receive two years of excellent chemistry instruction from Mr. Moskaluk in order to prepare for General Chem in college, but auditing a CC class to prepare for Organic Chem is frowned upon.

 

:iagree:

 

My son could have taken an algebra based physics class at the community college last year, but since I had read that cc science classes are frowned upon by the medical school admissions folks, he took AP Physics B instead. Based on the syllabi, it appears that both classes covered the same content. Yet the completion of AP Physics is not reported on the medical school application, but the cc class (that covered the same material) would have to have been reported.:confused:

 

I can understand why medical schools would frown upon a college student taking Organic Chemistry at a community college.

 

I can't understand why medical school admissions care what classes a student took while in high school. Obviously they must, or they wouldn't ask that those classes (even audited classes) be listed on the application.

[snowbeltmom]

Orgo is considered one of the most challenging classes for pre-meds (it was certainly the most challenging one for me). ..

I know plenty of people who chose to take it at a different college over the summer to do better on it- I actually took it at Harvard, figuring it wouldn't look as bad and it would almost certainly be easier than the one taught at my school (it was)- and for many, it was frowned upon.

 

Thanks for your post. When you say it was "frowned upon", how did you know that? Were some of your friends rejected by certain medical schools because they took Organic at a different college over the summer?

 

I have not been able to get a straight answer from a medical school - granted, I have only tried two schools, but it would be nice to have a definitive answer.

[nynyny]

Orgo is considered one of the most challenging classes for pre-meds (it was certainly the most challenging one for me). Depending on the college you go to, the professor who teaches it etc, it may be anywhere from challenging to nearly impossible. The reason med schools especially dislike seeing you take orgo at an easier school or take it twice is that it's a big way for them to differentiate among students at your same college or students at colleges of the same caliber. Bio in general isn't super difficult, nor is gen chem, nor is physics. But a lot of people find orgo difficult- so, it makes for a good item to look at if you're a med school admission person. If you get straight A's in your sciences but a C in orgo, it may mean that the other sciences weren't that hard, especially since a number of other applicants from your school did better in orgo than you. I know plenty of people who chose to take it at a different college over the summer to do better on it- I actually took it at Harvard, figuring it wouldn't look as bad and it would almost certainly be easier than the one taught at my school (it was)- and for many, it was frowned upon.

 

So what's a kid to do who is competing against students in schools such as Stuydesvant High where Organic Chem is a year long elective? Not all students are capable of self studying Organic. Would it be acceptable to audit the CC as a high school junior/senior?

[Medstudent]

:iagree:

 

My son could have taken an algebra based physics class at the community college last year, but since I had read that cc science classes are frowned upon by the medical school admissions folks, he took AP Physics B instead. Based on the syllabi, it appears that both classes covered the same content. Yet the completion of AP Physics is not reported on the medical school application, but the cc class (that covered the same material) would have to have been reported.:confused:

 

I can understand why medical schools would frown upon a college student taking Organic Chemistry at a community college.

 

I can't understand why medical school admissions care what classes a student took while in high school. Obviously they must, or they wouldn't ask that those classes (even audited classes) be listed on the application.

 

 

Well, the main reason they care about whether students take classes at a CC during high school is that taking a college-level class should count as college work, regardless of when it was done. It counts toward your med school gpa. Otherwise, there'll always be the risk of people taking all the premed classes as high schoolers (at CC's, or elsewhere), not doing all that well, but then being way ahead of their classmates when they take them again at a 4 year college. Their thinking is- if you want to take college classes that's your prerogative, but a) they should count toward your gpa, and b) you shouldn't get to take premed classes at an easier place. I know it's frustrating, but as of now, that's the policy. For what it's worth, MD schools ("allopathic medical schools") average all college grades, while DO schools ("osteopathic medical schools") replace the grade of a class if you've taken it twice.

 

I've actually known a whole bunch of people who took CC classes in high school before they really had a study system down or before they were serious about their grades and their CC grades really brought their gpa's down come application season. Some schools have tough gpa cutoffs, and if you get a B, it's a 3.0. It doesn't matter that it's hard to get a B in chem when you're in 10th grade or whatever, that's a 3.0 to be averaged with your 3.7's and 4.0's. Take a couple of classes, and that can really hurt you.

 

 

 

Thanks for your post. When you say it was "frowned upon", how did you know that? Were some of your friends rejected by certain medical schools because they took Organic at a different college over the summer?

 

I have not been able to get a straight answer from a medical school - granted, I have only tried two schools, but it would be nice to have a definitive answer.

 

Hmm, well I was told by my premed adviser that it's not something "looked at favorably". I didn't get rejected despite it, and neither did a couple of my friends who took orgo elsewhere too. Has someone gotten rejected outright for that? I doubt it. I'm guessing it would have to be part of a pattern of "taking the easy way out", or it would have to be a much higher grade than what you're getting at your college for them to truly question it. But that's just my guess. There's really no "rule", but with only 40something% of applicants getting into med school nationally every year, most people are very wary of doing ANYTHING that might compromise their application, even if they're not 100% sure it will. By the time you graduate, there will certainly be a few things on your application you'd like to change, so it's best not to add something else that they can find questionable from the get go.

 

So what's a kid to do who is competing against students in schools such as Stuydesvant High where Organic Chem is a year long elective? Not all students are capable of self studying Organic. Would it be acceptable to audit the CC as a high school junior/senior?

 

I wish I had a good answer for you. Med school admissions is an inherently unfair process, I'm afraid. Students take easy classes and get a better gpa than those who really challenge themselves, they stumble into research projects that get them published while others work their butts off for years and when the data doesn't pan out they don't get a publication, and all colleges are different in terms of how difficult their classes are, how tough the competition is, etc. Brilliant kids don't get in every year, while others get in for odd reasons. It's TRULY a crapshoot, which is why most people try to control the few things we actually can control and not make anyone on the committees angry. With thousands of applications at each school, the most minor thing can get you overlooked, and there's no way to appeal a decision once it's made. My application year was one of the most stressful years of my life, I assure you. I got a full ride at a top 20 med school but got rejected from most of my safeties. Makes zero sense.

 

As for auditing, all I can say is that if you have an official transcript (aka there's an actual transcript that says you've audited a class), it goes into your med school application. Will it make a difference? Maybe so, maybe not. If there's a grade, it goes into your gpa. It doesn't matter when you take or audit the class.

[Alice]

I took Organic Chem in summer school between freshman and sophomore year of college. I did it that way because as a double major in Bio and Chem it was always tough to fit labs into my schedule and I wanted to get it out of the way. In many ways, I think it was an ideal way to do it. I lived and breathed organic chemistry for 8 weeks (or however long the class was) but it was nice to be able to focus only on it and not have other distractions. I have no idea if med schools cared about whether or not I did it in summer school, my college didn't have a "pre-med" program so we didn't have those kinds of advisors. If anything our advisors were more anti-med school and pro-pure science. Of course, this was back in the dark ages so things are probably different now.

 

I will also say that although I found taking it in the summer to work well for me, I also just really really loved the class. It clicked for me and I didn't find it that conceptually difficult. The work was hard but I enjoyed it. Later I was a tutor and had one student in particular that it was very difficult to tutor because she just couldn't "see" the reactions in the way I could. I could teach her tricks to remember things but I wasn't able to teach her how to just get it. That may say more about my teaching skills than anything else though.

[creekland]

 

I wish I had a good answer for you. Med school admissions is an inherently unfair process, I'm afraid. Students take easy classes and get a better gpa than those who really challenge themselves, they stumble into research projects that get them published while others work their butts off for years and when the data doesn't pan out they don't get a publication, and all colleges are different in terms of how difficult their classes are, how tough the competition is, etc. Brilliant kids don't get in every year, while others get in for odd reasons. It's TRULY a crapshoot, which is why most people try to control the few things we actually can control and not make anyone on the committees angry. With thousands of applications at each school, the most minor thing can get you overlooked, and there's no way to appeal a decision once it's made. My application year was one of the most stressful years of my life, I assure you. I got a full ride at a top 20 med school but got rejected from most of my safeties. Makes zero sense.

 

 

 

I just want to say that I really appreciate you sharing your experience with us. Thanks for taking the time!

 

Of course, this was back in the dark ages so things are probably different now.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, they are different now. One of the top schools we visited had a presentation from one of their med school acceptance committee guys (not sure how to describe it). He fully admitted that getting into med school now is far tougher than when he had to do it. He even told us that he doubted he'd be able to make the cut now if he were a college student with his stats, etc. Yet, he is at one of the top 5 med schools as a professor and is obviously quite capable. Life just isn't fair and one can either complain or adapt.

 

The problem is that there are way too many people interested in becoming doctors for the number of positions open (pure supply and demand). A few new med schools are opening, but it'll only make a small, small, dent in the demand for spots.

[FaithManor]

I'd also like to point out that it varies from state to state. One of the reasons that dd's premed program rejected those with community college credits for classes in their major - ie. chem, physics, a & p, etc. is that in Michigan, the quality of community colleges is very low compared to say, California and within the state, they vary from institution to institution. For example, college chem at our local cc is so poor that students do not cover even 1/2 of the content of the same class taken at a not highly ranked four-year institution one hour from here. Thus that lowly ranked university will not accept credits transferred from said cc if they are in math or science. Additionally, the student, caught unaware and thinking hey, "I;ve successfully completed college chem" is in for a very bad time when they take their next chem course at uni.

 

So, Michigan pre-med programs are not inclined, due to the lack of standards and consistency between cc's here, to look favorably upon cc credits. But, since there is at least a standard curriculum/course content for a class to be called AP because of college board oversight and a comprehensive exam to measure achievement, they do look favorably upon AP's. However, not one program dd applied to gave credit for AP's. They wanted to see at least one in the sciences or maths to demonstrate ability, but even a score of 5 did not get the student credit. One was going to take that class again at uni. That's not necessarily bad. For the kid that gets a 4 or 5 in AP chem or biology, they should then be able to pull an A without too much sweat in that class in college assuming a reasonable professor. It's nice to have a few A's in pre-med that didn't kill you to achieve them because there is plenty of time for brain torture later on! :D

 

Again, much varies state to state and of course, if the student may be applying to schools in many locales, then the whole process is more complicated due to meeting an even wider range of demands.

 

Faith

[Medstudent]

I just want to say that I really appreciate you sharing your experience with us. Thanks for taking the time!

 

 

 

Unfortunately, they are different now. One of the top schools we visited had a presentation from one of their med school acceptance committee guys (not sure how to describe it). He fully admitted that getting into med school now is far tougher than when he had to do it. He even told us that he doubted he'd be able to make the cut now if he were a college student with his stats, etc. Yet, he is at one of the top 5 med schools as a professor and is obviously quite capable. Life just isn't fair and one can either complain or adapt.

 

The problem is that there are way too many people interested in becoming doctors for the number of positions open (pure supply and demand). A few new med schools are opening, but it'll only make a small, small, dent in the demand for spots.

 

Aw, it's my pleasure. It's such a bizarre, confusing, and frustrating process and you're expected to know what to do from day one. Happy to help whenever I can. Plus, it's a nice break from studying ;)