US News & World Report new ratings are out

[Teachin'Mine]

US News and World Report came out with their college ratings. Harvard is still in number 1, but it's tied with Princeton and Yale's in 3rd. Their various lists are very interesting and have some surprises in them regarding state schools and others. I haven't used the search function yet, but I know this will come in handy in the future.

 

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges

[Sunshine State Sue]

Thanks. I love looking through this list and wondering how I can trick ds into applying to some of them. ;)

[creekland]

It's interesting looking at lists, but when it comes down to it, I've found that people in the field often have their own informal lists for which schools are good for specific majors or intended jobs. The latter has been better for our college search - possibly because my boys know what they want to do (they could always change their mind, but we're starting with what they say as they leave).

 

I figure those in the field who could very likely be doing the hiring count the most. ;) US News (and Forbes, etc) put too much emphasis on "other" aspects that simply don't seem to matter IMO.

[Teachin'Mine]

Thanks. I love looking through this list and wondering how I can trick ds into applying to some of them. ;)

 

:lol: That's about how it goes here too!

[Teachin'Mine]

It's interesting looking at lists, but when it comes down to it, I've found that people in the field often have their own informal lists for which schools are good for specific majors or intended jobs. The latter has been better for our college search - possibly because my boys know what they want to do (they could always change their mind, but we're starting with what they say as they leave).

 

I figure those in the field who could very likely be doing the hiring count the most. ;) US News (and Forbes, etc) put too much emphasis on "other" aspects that simply don't seem to matter IMO.

 

I think it would be great to know what the employers within the different fields think of the different colleges. I'm just not sure how to go about getting that info. :001_huh: Any suggestions?

[Brenda in MA]

I figure those in the field who could very likely be doing the hiring count the most. ;) US News (and Forbes, etc) put too much emphasis on "other" aspects that simply don't seem to matter IMO.

 

I agree, and I think that the heavy emphasis on these rankings is really a detriment to colleges and also to students. I know of two folks who are professors at "ranked" colleges. Both of them have complained at length about the poor influence of these rankings. One was teaching a very "hands-on" upper level undergraduate class that had a limit of about a dozen students. The administration told him that he needed to allow up to nineteen students in the class because the ranking "range" for small class size is 10 - 19 students. He didn't feel that nineteen students could be accommodated in that course without greatly sacrificing the teaching quality. The administration didn't care.

 

Another was told to cap a class at 49 students (when it could have accommodated a few more) because the ranking "range" was 40 - 49 students. He had to turn away a few students who needed that course for their major. The administration didn't care.

 

I think there is too much pressure for the administration to do whatever they can to "make the numbers look good". I hope that people realize the truth and these kind of rankings go the way of the dinosaur.

 

JM2Cents,

Brenda

[Starr]

My MIL tells my dd if she doesn't go to one of the top 5 she won't ever get into grad school. :( So much for family support.

[Teachin'Mine]

I agree, and I think that the heavy emphasis on these rankings is really a detriment to colleges and also to students. I know of two folks who are professors at "ranked" colleges. Both of them have complained at length about the poor influence of these rankings. One was teaching a very "hands-on" upper level undergraduate class that had a limit of about a dozen students. The administration told him that he needed to allow up to nineteen students in the class because the ranking "range" for small class size is 10 - 19 students. He didn't feel that nineteen students could be accommodated in that course without greatly sacrificing the teaching quality. The administration didn't care.

 

Another was told to cap a class at 49 students (when it could have accommodated a few more) because the ranking "range" was 40 - 49 students. He had to turn away a few students who needed that course for their major. The administration didn't care.

 

I think there is too much pressure for the administration to do whatever they can to "make the numbers look good". I hope that people realize the truth and these kind of rankings go the way of the dinosaur.

 

JM2Cents,

Brenda

 

Unfortunately where there are ratings, there will be those who try to work the numbers to their advantage, to the detriment of others.

 

But I don't agree that these rankings should be dropped entirely. For those of us who are not in academia and don't have much access to what people "in the field" think about different colleges, there is little else we have to go by. These rankings are by no means the only way to judge a school, but it does give some of us a bit of an idea of how the different schools stack up. And of course it's not always the top rated colleges which will be the best fit for any one student.

[Teachin'Mine]

My MIL tells my dd if she doesn't go to one of the top 5 she won't ever get into grad school. :( So much for family support.

 

I think you could easily show your daughter that while MIL probably has good intentions, she is definitely misinformed and wrong. How sad that she probably won't be celebrating whatever her granddaughter decides to do regarding her schooling.

[Sunshine State Sue]

My MIL tells my dd if she doesn't go to one of the top 5 she won't ever get into grad school. :( So much for family support.

What? That's ridiculous. :confused:

[Sebastian (a lady)]

US News and World Report came out with their college ratings. Harvard is still in number 1' date=' but it's tied with Princeton and Yale's in 3rd. Their various lists are very interesting and have some surprises in them regarding state schools and others. I haven't used the search function yet, but I know this will come in handy in the future.

 

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges[/quote']

 

The best value listings made me chuckle. As they are based on the "value" of the program vs the discount from aid, it puts some quite pricey schools on the list.

 

Sort of reminds me of how some snack foods can be labeled as "healthy" choices because they have reduced fat or sugar over the normally very high levels.

 

I would have liked to see the program "value" vs the average tuition payment. Maybe that's buried somewhere else.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

My MIL tells my dd if she doesn't go to one of the top 5 she won't ever get into grad school. :( So much for family support.

 

That's just silly.

 

Dh, BIL and SIL attended a school that is in the 90's for the overall rankings. But it's in the top 10 for undergraduate teaching (which is something I'd rather concentrate on).

 

DH ONLY has a master's degree. BIL is an astrophysicist with a PhD, who has taught at the college level. SIL is a psychologist (as in PhD plus licensing). Not being from a top 5 school didn't slow any of them down at all.

 

As if all of the nation's grad schools were filled with students from the top five undergrad schools. (That's probably not what she really meant, but still.)

[Teachin'Mine]

The best value listings made me chuckle. As they are based on the "value" of the program vs the discount from aid, it puts some quite pricey schools on the list.

 

Sort of reminds me of how some snack foods can be labeled as "healthy" choices because they have reduced fat or sugar over the normally very high levels.

 

I would have liked to see the program "value" vs the average tuition payment. Maybe that's buried somewhere else.

 

Clearly these ratings will not play at all in you and your children's school selection process. ;)

[creekland]

I think it would be great to know what the employers within the different fields think of the different colleges. I'm just not sure how to go about getting that info. :001_huh: Any suggestions?

 

Google and e-mail have been our friends. When oldest decided he wanted to go into microfinance we googled it, found a group that specializes in it (world-wide) and e-mailed them.

 

With middle son (doctor wannabe) it's been easier as there are several folks in the medical field and plenty of advice to sift through online.

 

With youngest, who currently wants ethnobotany, I first googled ethnobotany to see what it was! Then I posted a thread on college confidential and got a great list of places (worldwide) offering it. Then we've just started checking with some botany professors as we've been visiting schools with middle son + the occasional knowledgeable person online who I've come across.

 

To check out "level" of colleges overall, I tend to like the average incoming class ACT/SAT scores. The main reason I like this is because I work in school, and quite honestly, with a few exceptions (both ways) the scores do tend to match academic potential. Teachers can only teach to the level of their students. Kids in lower level classes tend to be working at an 8th grade level (even when in 12th grade technically). Kids in upper level classes can often handle college level work even in 10th grade. In between is in between. Their SAT/ACT scores roughly show who is where with a good enough correlation that I trust them within a range. Therefore, when I'm checking out a "new to me" school, the first thing I do is pull up college board's SAT/ACT stats on the school. If they are acceptable, then we continue looking at the school.

 

Oldest ended up at a school where he is easily in their top 25% of students, BUT, that's good for merit aid AND the school ended up being a great fit for him based on people in the field, what the school offers and how it fits him. He's also not so high that he's bored or under-challenged as he might have been if I'd kept another school on his list with considerably lower stats.

 

Middle might end up at U of Alabama. Their overall stats are well below his and not a school I would consider EXCEPT they have an Honors College he would be in, and within that, even more options. Stats within that are far closer to his. What we saw when we visited definitely lets me put them back on our list and the potential for really good merit aid makes them a strong contender for where he might go. While they are currently #75 with USN, I suspect if their Honors College could be considered separately from the rest of the U, they'd rank much higher. Other schools he is considering are well known for both good aid and getting students into med school. Some are ranked more highly than others, but he can get into med school from any of those we are looking at. Going to a "best" school would only cost us more $$ as most do not give merit aid. While we would qualify for need based aid now, IF the economy picks up, we wouldn't and it would be $50,000+ annually out of our pocket. I'd rather save that (if we have it) for med school costs.

 

Youngest is currently looking at a really ho-hum state school for what is likely to be his stats. (I won't know his stats for sure until Dec.) However, the fact that every. single. person I've "conversed" with either online or in person says they are #1 in his field... well, we're considering it if he keeps the same major in mind. Best in the field trumps most other things to me for such a specific major. We'll be hoping for merit aid.

 

We've definitely considered a lot of "new to me" schools. It's been fun learning about them!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Well I still love Oreos. I just can't convince myself they are a health food.

 

Those schools are very prestigious, but there is also a premium for the name recognition.

 

And it's a whole other thread to discuss the quality of undergrad teaching at schools with this much name recognition. In some cases I think a smaller less branded school does add more to the student.

 

But best value here is not the same as bargain.

 

Eta. I do think some of the more specific lists are helpful like best undergrad teaching, best liberal arts or best engineering.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Sebastian (a lady)

[flyingiguana]

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2011/09/13/midmorning3/

 

This is an interview/call in program on the rankings.

 

They also discuss how many schools are now refusing to participate in the "reputation survey" which accounts for 25 percent of the ranking. How in the world can most people know about most schools? So 25 percent of the info that goes into the rankings is mostly just random.

 

I just looked up the info on the college where I work. The info they list for this school is just WRONG. The most surprising thing is that they got the application deadline wrong. How hard could it be to get that right? And if they got that wrong, what else did they get wrong that actually went into the rankings?

Edited September 16, 2011 by flyingiguana

[creekland]

I agree, and I think that the heavy emphasis on these rankings is really a detriment to colleges and also to students. I know of two folks who are professors at "ranked" colleges. Both of them have complained at length about the poor influence of these rankings. One was teaching a very "hands-on" upper level undergraduate class that had a limit of about a dozen students. The administration told him that he needed to allow up to nineteen students in the class because the ranking "range" for small class size is 10 - 19 students. He didn't feel that nineteen students could be accommodated in that course without greatly sacrificing the teaching quality. The administration didn't care.

 

Another was told to cap a class at 49 students (when it could have accommodated a few more) because the ranking "range" was 40 - 49 students. He had to turn away a few students who needed that course for their major. The administration didn't care.

 

I think there is too much pressure for the administration to do whatever they can to "make the numbers look good". I hope that people realize the truth and these kind of rankings go the way of the dinosaur.

 

JM2Cents,

Brenda

 

I agree that these things are happening and it's a shame. Sadly, I don't think rankings will ever be discontinued since they provide so much money for the publications...

 

And, I suppose it's "good" for us right now since my guys have decent stats. Since most schools want to improve their rankings, it does make it easier for higher stat students to get accepted - moreso than it used to without the rankings. I suspect it's the #1 reason why high SAT/ACT scores tend to be the best thing a student can have going for them. Granted, when one gets to the top schools ( <30% accepted) ALL students applying have high stats and a successful applicant needs more than that, but for the vast majority of schools, I'm not so sure that's the case the way it might have been in the past.

 

Some schools are going around this by becoming "score optional," but I doubt they'd turn away high scores often (without other "issues" being present).

 

But getting back to the rankings... the couple profs I've talked with about them feel they are a scam. They peer evaluate schools themselves and flat out say, "How in the heck do I know what _____ school is doing in their program?" Yes, there are journal writings, but really, how is a prof going to know what every college is doing enough to rate them accurately? Some might rate them based on graduate students they see/get, but again, their data is quite limited to compare all schools. They, themselves, tend to end up going with name recognition. It's very easy for bias to slip in too... If one thinks the "only good schools are on the _____ coast," then they'll rate them that way whether it's true or not!

[In The Great White North]

I would have liked to see the program "value" vs the average tuition payment. Maybe that's buried somewhere else.

 

I would like to see the program "value" vs the PUBLISHED TUITION AND ROOM & BOARD payment.

 

Obviously, a full ride is the best value anywhere. My full ride to USMA was a better "value" than full price at Harvard, or any of the other "best value" schools they listed.

 

Basing "value" on hypothetical or average scholarships/aid doesn't help when there is no guarantee that you will get the "average" amount of aid, or when "aid" includes loans.

[Teachin'Mine]

Google and e-mail have been our friends. When oldest decided he wanted to go into microfinance we googled it, found a group that specializes in it (world-wide) and e-mailed them.

 

With middle son (doctor wannabe) it's been easier as there are several folks in the medical field and plenty of advice to sift through online.

 

With youngest, who currently wants ethnobotany, I first googled ethnobotany to see what it was! Then I posted a thread on college confidential and got a great list of places (worldwide) offering it. Then we've just started checking with some botany professors as we've been visiting schools with middle son + the occasional knowledgeable person online who I've come across.

 

To check out "level" of colleges overall, I tend to like the average incoming class ACT/SAT scores. The main reason I like this is because I work in school, and quite honestly, with a few exceptions (both ways) the scores do tend to match academic potential. Teachers can only teach to the level of their students. Kids in lower level classes tend to be working at an 8th grade level (even when in 12th grade technically). Kids in upper level classes can often handle college level work even in 10th grade. In between is in between. Their SAT/ACT scores roughly show who is where with a good enough correlation that I trust them within a range. Therefore, when I'm checking out a "new to me" school, the first thing I do is pull up college board's SAT/ACT stats on the school. If they are acceptable, then we continue looking at the school.

 

Oldest ended up at a school where he is easily in their top 25% of students, BUT, that's good for merit aid AND the school ended up being a great fit for him based on people in the field, what the school offers and how it fits him. He's also not so high that he's bored or under-challenged as he might have been if I'd kept another school on his list with considerably lower stats.

 

Middle might end up at U of Alabama. Their overall stats are well below his and not a school I would consider EXCEPT they have an Honors College he would be in, and within that, even more options. Stats within that are far closer to his. What we saw when we visited definitely lets me put them back on our list and the potential for really good merit aid makes them a strong contender for where he might go. While they are currently #75 with USN, I suspect if their Honors College could be considered separately from the rest of the U, they'd rank much higher. Other schools he is considering are well known for both good aid and getting students into med school. Some are ranked more highly than others, but he can get into med school from any of those we are looking at. Going to a "best" school would only cost us more $$ as most do not give merit aid. While we would qualify for need based aid now, IF the economy picks up, we wouldn't and it would be $50,000+ annually out of our pocket. I'd rather save that (if we have it) for med school costs.

 

Youngest is currently looking at a really ho-hum state school for what is likely to be his stats. (I won't know his stats for sure until Dec.) However, the fact that every. single. person I've "conversed" with either online or in person says they are #1 in his field... well, we're considering it if he keeps the same major in mind. Best in the field trumps most other things to me for such a specific major. We'll be hoping for merit aid.

 

We've definitely considered a lot of "new to me" schools. It's been fun learning about them!

 

I had to google that too! What a great field to go into! At least it certainly makes it easier to narrow choices as compared to my dd's area of interest - math. :001_huh: Hopefully she'll be able to narrow it down a bit over the next two years so we'll be able to get more specific in schools and their programs.

 

I agree that the SAT/ACT scores can be a good indication of the level of teaching at the different schools, but as you pointed out, there are so many times when those with the highest wouldn't necessarily be the best for a given student. Merit aid is harder to come by as all the students are at the top, classes may be large and not taught by professors, competition can be cut-throat, etc..

 

Honors programs are like a small college within a university and that changes everything too. I do the same as you when learning of a school I know nothing about. I google and look at their admissions stats and also their ratings as far as the percent of students who stick around after their freshman year. I can't imagine having to search schools the way I had with a few guide books in hand. :tongue_smilie: The power of the internet is amazing!!!

 

 

I had been reading here on some older threads a while back that major employers were more interested in students who attended larger state universities - or at least were recruiting more there since they had a broader base. But then I talked with someone who does hiring and it's the top schools they like to canvas. So much conflicting information no matter where you read.

 

Thank you so much for what you've shared. When I have more specific information, I'll be doing the same. For now I've just been searching by her major and possible minors.

[Teachin'Mine]

Well I still love Oreos. I just can't convince myself they are a health food.

 

Those schools are very prestigious, but there is also a premium for the name recognition.

 

And it's a whole other thread to discuss the quality of undergrad teaching at schools with this much name recognition. In some cases I think a smaller less branded school does add more to the student.

 

But best value here is not the same as bargain.

 

Eta. I do think some of the more specific lists are helpful like best undergrad teaching, best liberal arts or best engineering.

 

 

I agree. :)

[In The Great White North]

My MIL tells my dd if she doesn't go to one of the top 5 she won't ever get into grad school.

 

Where does she think the rest of the grad students come from?

[Teachin'Mine]

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2011/09/13/midmorning3/

 

This is an interview/call in program on the rankings.

 

They also discuss how many schools are now refusing to participate in the "reputation survey" which accounts for 25 percent of the ranking. How in the world can most people know about most schools? So 25 percent of the info that goes into the rankings is mostly just random.

 

I just looked up the info on the college where I work. The info they list for this school is just WRONG. The most surprising thing is that they got the application deadline wrong. How hard could it be to get that right? And if they got that wrong, what else did they get wrong that actually went into the rankings?

 

Thank you for that link - great info!

 

Interestingly even within the radio show, information given about the salaries of Harvard graduates vs California prison guards was even a bit misleading IMO. Numbers can be worked any which way for stats or lists, so it's just one tool to be used and definitely falls short of ideal. The old college guide books weren't the be all and end all either. In such a short blurb - what was it half a page? - there was so much information that was missing. And getting that missing info was much more challenging without the benefit of the internet. At least now we have ways to further search and verify information.

 

And thank you for the heads-up/reminder that all information should be verified on the individual school's website, or by calling admissions. The application deadline is not something you want to get wrong. :tongue_smilie:

[Teachin'Mine]

I would like to see the program "value" vs the PUBLISHED TUITION AND ROOM & BOARD payment.

 

Obviously, a full ride is the best value anywhere. My full ride to USMA was a better "value" than full price at Harvard, or any of the other "best value" schools they listed.

 

Basing "value" on hypothetical or average scholarships/aid doesn't help when there is no guarantee that you will get the "average" amount of aid, or when "aid" includes loans.

 

I had no idea that aid includes loans. :001_huh: I thought it was only for scholarships, merit aid, need based aid, grants, etc..

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I would like to see the program "value" vs the PUBLISHED TUITION AND ROOM & BOARD payment.

 

Obviously, a full ride is the best value anywhere. My full ride to USMA was a better "value" than full price at Harvard, or any of the other "best value" schools they listed.

 

Basing "value" on hypothetical or average scholarships/aid doesn't help when there is no guarantee that you will get the "average" amount of aid, or when "aid" includes loans.

 

Well that's true. On the other hand, if a school has the practice of publishing a high full price tuition and then offering discounts to a large percentage of students . . . There is something of a sales job happening there, because you think you're getting this fantastic hook up. On the other hand, they could have easily done two columns, one with rankings by full price and one by the average actually paid.

 

Yeah it is funny that the academies didn't trump the discounting of the ivy league schools. On the other hand, there is that service committment.

 

It cracked me up that USMA and USNA were tied as the #1 Public Liberal Arts School. The sup when I was at USNA was not a supporter of the humanities majors, which he once publicly described as condemning one to being a "wallflower in the ballroom of progress" (I should get THAT done up as a tshirt to wear to my reunion.)