Highschool: second language credit?

[regentrude]

We are raising our kids bilingually English/German in the US. I would like to hear from other parents of high schoolers: do you give credit for the family language studies? What do you include? How do you reflect the studies in the family language on the transcript?

I know that I will have her take the SATII to demonstrate proficiency - but apart from that I have no clear idea how her German studies will be documented.

Obviously, using materials that are used to teach German as a foreign language in high school are not appropriate. So, comparing their accomplishment to German I, II, III etc makes absolutely no sense - the kids would have reached this level in early middle school.

I am designing a German literature course where she will read and study the most important literary works, in their chronological order. We spend time in Germany so they can enhance their language proficiency.

I just have no clear idea how to "sell" it.

I am curious what everybody else is doing in this respect.

(Btw, she studies French and does have an actual "foreign" language as well)

[momof2cm]

We are raising our kids bilingually English/German in the US. I would like to hear from other parents of high schoolers: do you give credit for the family language studies? What do you include? How do you reflect the studies in the family language on the transcript?

I know that I will have her take the SATII to demonstrate proficiency - but apart from that I have no clear idea how her German studies will be documented.

Obviously, using materials that are used to teach German as a foreign language in high school are not appropriate. So, comparing their accomplishment to German I, II, III etc makes absolutely no sense - the kids would have reached this level in early middle school.

I am designing a German literature course where she will read and study the most important literary works, in their chronological order. We spend time in Germany so they can enhance their language proficiency.

I just have no clear idea how to "sell" it.

I am curious what everybody else is doing in this respect.

(Btw, she studies French and does have an actual "foreign" language as well)

 

I am in the same boat and in the middle of researching this. I have found out that the kids need to be proficient in all aspects of the language, meaning speaking, writing, reading, and especially grammar.

 

I haven't figured out how to give credits, but I am thinking across the lines of Dutch 1,2,3 etc for lower grades and then start in high school ,with Dutch 4,5,6. Or I might just write it as a bonus and not give credit because my kids also take Latin and Spanish, which will count as their foreign language education.

[Matryoshka]

I'm not exactly sure either. They may take the German Sprachdiplom at their Saturday School, but I'm not sure US universities would even know what to do with that, so I'm thinking I may have them take the German AP - which is equivalent to 5 years of high school German, but they won't have taken it in school...

 

They are also taking Spanish in a more traditional manner, but with any luck they'll be starting high school with III or IV - I'm thinking AP might be our best bet there too. It'll look like they only have 2 or 3 years of Spanish in high school, but the test should document that they've had the equivalent of 5...

[In The Great White North]

Dd took the German AP test as a freshman. She did take German 4 at the local high school but it was a waste of time (made a few new friends though.) They did the B2 test (not sure why German 4 didn't go for the C level but suspect he wanted to blackmail them into coming back for German 5, which wasn't offered that year)

 

This year, she is doing a lit course I made up, which I will put on her transcript.

 

Your dc should have no problem getting a 5 on the AP test, even if they don't prep for it at all.

[regentrude]

 

Your dc should have no problem getting a 5 on the AP test, even if they don't prep for it at all.

 

Yes, I know about the tests (just not sure whether I our school does AP German testing, have to find that out). My question was more about credits and class listed on the transcript - we DO spend time working on German, and I was wondering how to take that into account.

[Nan in Mass]

I am planning either to have an English section of the transcript and a French section of the transcript and list courses according to the language of the textbook, or I am going to do the same thing I do with CC classes - add a superscript designating that this course was in French. In any event, I am going to list the courses with their titles in French. The course titles sound almost the same in English, so they will still be understandable.

 

-Nan

[cathmom]

Call it German for Heritage Speakers, maybe. There are classes at some schools called Spanish for Heritage Speakers, where they do advanced grammar and literature taught by a native speaker, so it wouldn't be an unfamiliar concept on a transcript.

[regentrude]

Call it German for Heritage Speakers, maybe. There are classes at some schools called Spanish for Heritage Speakers, where they do advanced grammar and literature taught by a native speaker, so it wouldn't be an unfamiliar concept on a transcript.

 

Thanks, that's a good idea.

[In The Great White North]

Call it German for Heritage Speakers, maybe. There are classes at some schools called Spanish for Heritage Speakers, where they do advanced grammar and literature taught by a native speaker, so it wouldn't be an unfamiliar concept on a transcript.

 

 

This will only work for one year (probably the first.) What's wrong with calling it German Literature, like you have on your siggie?

[Ester Maria]

I am designing a German literature course where she will read and study the most important literary works, in their chronological order.

German for Heritage Speakers: A Survey of German Literature

 

Based on your description of the course, I would probably go with something like that. If her course is designed in the fashion in which it is entirely comparable to what is done in German schools (if you intend to use their materials, spine, etc.), I would replace "heritage" with "native", because there is a small distinction between the two.

 

Otherwise, if you have two sets of languages continuously throughout high school, you can simply list them with numbers, and it would look for example like this (off the top of my head):

 

English 9: Introduction to Literature

German 9: Ancient Greek and Roman Literature

English 10: British Literature

German 10: Medieval to 16th century German Literature in the European Context

English 11: American Literature

German 11: 17th to Early 19th Century German / European Literature

English 12: A Survey of Contemporary Anglophone Literature

German 12: Late 19th Century to Contemporary German / European Literature

 

Or, if you do not want it to be a strictly literary course every year, but plan on doing more than one, you could do something like this:

 

German for Heritage Speakers: A Survey of German Literature

German for Heritage Speakers: German Film

etc.

 

In any case, if you are replicating the German school experience on par with what is taught in Germany and thus produce an equivalent, call it German for native speakers, and if you are doing your own mix, call it German for heritage speakers, and then you can decide whether to define the course more precisely already in the title or in the course description.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Ester Maria

[regentrude]

Thanks for the suggestions!

[Joan in GE]

We went with the Roman numerals, I, II, etc... and I've started again with my dd....and then you can describe the level in course descriptions...

 

So if you are planning on doing the literary analysis that is typical for end of high school studies here in Europe, then describe the course as it would be described here...

 

My ds did his French AP in 9th grade, but I hadn't applied for Audit status - so it just said French AP 9th grade on his transcript...in the external exam portion

 

For my dd, I may end up applying for the Audit so that I can call it (in parentheses - AP French, like this "French III - (AP French)"...

 

I'm calling dd's French in 7th grade - French I...and then on up..so if she goes through 12th, then she'll have French VI. That alone should cause a pause - and if there is something written by a "counselor" (you) or something is his/her essay about bilingual experience in the US, it would highlight it more...

 

If you think of what you are trying to communicate to admissions people, the heart of the matter is that your dc are being educated bilingually. So you might want to call your homeschool something like "Bilingual X Academy"...to make it more obvious from the start. I'm also planning to do that if dd applies in the US.

 

Since it ended up that my ds's transcript was for schools here, I didn't really make any special point about it.....but if you are trying to impress US admissions, I think it would be hard to fit something into a course title that would adequately express your dc's level, as German literature could just be taken as German literature but as a second language (for me, German for Heritage Speakers, etc while very accurate seems quite cumbersome as a title)...

 

Joan

[Ester Maria]

If you think of what you are trying to communicate to admissions people, the heart of the matter is that your dc are being educated bilingually.

But they do NOT seem to be educated bilingually (if her signature lists all they cover). :confused:

 

They seem to come from a German-speaking household, but their schoolwork seems to be entirely in English, based on the materials in English, with formal output in English - barring the exception of foreign languages, naturally. Technically speaking, that is NOT a bilingual education - that is a regular English education of bilingual children.

 

My children are an example of multilingual education, not only multilingual upbringing: if I take an example of my middle daughter, she has a typical Italian school load with the appropriate subjects materials, but in addition to that she not only has English per se the way anglophone children have it, but her math is AoPS, her sciences are introductory college texts in English, she watches TTC videos as a part of some of her classes, she did or will go through some History / Western Civ. materials in English, English is her output language for some classes, etc. She not only studies Hebrew as a foreign language with appropriate textbooks, she studies Judaic studies directly in Hebrew, using Bible textbooks which are used in Israeli schools, has the Israeli set of textbooks for some of history / Jewish culture / geography, etc. While I would consider it a bit too far-fetched to seriously claim that she is being educated trilingually (her Hebrew production is actually not good for a child her age, she is a bit "behind" with these stuff), she is definitely being educated bilingually.

 

I think there is a big difference between a bilingual upbringing, having two languages at home, and a fully bilingual education. Personally, I think that to claim bilingual education or call her homeschool bilingual on transcript, regentrude would have to study at least one or two additional areas in German, in addition to a regular German language / literature class for native speakers - if she does not do that, I think that the distinction "for heritage speakers" is actually more to the point.

[regentrude]

I think there is a big difference between a bilingual upbringing, having two languages at home, and a fully bilingual education. Personally, I think that to claim bilingual education or call her homeschool bilingual on transcript, regentrude would have to study at least one or two additional areas in German, in addition to a regular German language / literature class for native speakers - if she does not do that, I think that the distinction "for heritage speakers" is actually more to the point.

 

I see your point, but I am not quite sure what it would mean to "study additional areas in German". If I do math, it is math - aside from the words that are used to describe it, it is the same math in English and in German. So, if somebody studies algebra, it will be the identical skill set - aside from a little bit of vocabulary (which we do cover in both languages).

If I study physics, it is exactly the same - the solution to a physics problem looks identical for a German or an English student, again, apart from a few vocabulaty terms. Chemistry, ditto. If I understand cellular respiration in English, the mechanism is the same in German, even the symbols for the chemical compounds are the same.

So, I am not entirely sure how one "does" these in different languages - since it is essentially the same thing, even the output would be, in many cases, identical.

:confused:

[In The Great White North]

she has a typical Italian school load with the appropriate subjects materials, but in addition to that she not only has English per se the way anglophone children have it, but her math is AoPS, her sciences are introductory college texts in English, she watches TTC videos as a part of some of her classes, she did or will go through some History / Western Civ. materials in English, English is her output language for some classes, etc. She not only studies Hebrew as a foreign language with appropriate textbooks, she studies Judaic studies directly in Hebrew, using Bible textbooks which are used in Israeli schools, has the Israeli set of textbooks for some of history / Jewish culture / geography, etc.

 

So is she doing two different math classes (one in Italian and one in English,) science classes, history classes, etc? How do you split that up? Does she do them on alternate days, a little every day or what? The same thing in Italian, then in English? How do you have enough time?

[Ester Maria]

So is she doing two different math classes (one in Italian and one in English,) science classes, history classes, etc? How do you split that up? Does she do them on alternate days, a little every day or what? The same thing in Italian, then in English? How do you have enough time?

Heavens, no. That would take up way too much time. :lol:

 

It is typically something like 80% - 20% for math and sciences, LOL. The bulk of her work is in English, accelerated work, but the work she gets tested on and has to formally go through is in Italian. She breezes through it, believe me - she is actually accelerated in these areas, so her exams do not exactly represent where she actually is. She just has to go through it, even if she knows it, for the sake of formality. Her main language is English for these areas, her textbooks are in English, her production (word problems, discussion, explanation of things, notes she takes, whatever) is in English the vast majority of time. The reason is quite simple, English materials tend to be better to her liking.

 

History is more like 50% - 50% - there is an Italian program (the content is determined by it; it is similar to WTM method in many ways), but it is supplemented with English materials. Oral and written examinations are formally in Italian, but she may write an odd essay in English, for example, or take notes from the anglophone materials directly in English.

 

I would look at the language of materials used, language of written and oral production during the course (essays, discussions, etc.) and the language of a written / oral exam at the end. Basically, the language in which "formalities" happen is the language of the course, regardless of the language spoken at home - according to that logic, we actually homeschool in Italian, but widen it with some things which are not officially recognized (at least yet, at least for now), but happen in English. Basically all of that "widening" is what she wants to do, I would normally request the regular Italian school load + English as a native language instead of ESL (makes no sense to do ESL in her case) and a home version of "Hebrew school" (which we do not intend to formalize any time soon, this is quite interest-led and DH-led, the way it has been done for generations and what they would, if they were in school, be doing in the evenings / weekends within family or community) - everything my kids do beyond that, they actually do by their own wish. In the end, they end up studying perfectly normal hours, compared to what their schooled peers in a similar situation.

[Ester Maria]

I see your point, but I am not quite sure what it would mean to "study additional areas in German". If I do math, it is math - aside from the words that are used to describe it, it is the same math in English and in German. So, if somebody studies algebra, it will be the identical skill set - aside from a little bit of vocabulary (which we do cover in both languages).

If I study physics, it is exactly the same - the solution to a physics problem looks identical for a German or an English student, again, apart from a few vocabulaty terms. Chemistry, ditto. If I understand cellular respiration in English, the mechanism is the same in German, even the symbols for the chemical compounds are the same.

So, I am not entirely sure how one "does" these in different languages - since it is essentially the same thing, even the output would be, in many cases, identical.

:confused:

I have actually found it difficult. It is easy to SEEM as though kids can tackle anything in either of the languages, but the reality is, they often struggle if you require them to be on the same level of written production / technical oral explanations and overall language sophistication when dealing with these things in both languages. In our academic tradition, all of these exams you mention would have oral exam follow ups. Labs would be written, then there would be at least some sort of written essay / research during the year, etc. You would be surprised how many children even if they SEEM perfectly bilingual are not balanced bilinguals, especially in the upper years (elementary is fine, LOL - high school becomes VERY problematic) and actually cannot do so smoothly advanced course work in their weaker language. The overlap between technical terms is often not 100% either. Everyday language is a very different beast than professional, scientific or academic jargon in both languages - many people who are totally conversationally fluent would actually struggle, in the beginning at least, to study in their weaker language at the upper levels.

 

You are also looking at different things than I do: sciences are maybe less problematic, but humanities are a living hell. You have different frameworks of history, different narratives, different philosophical traditions, a different set of cultural associations...

[Joan in GE]

But they do NOT seem to be educated bilingually (if her signature lists all they cover). :confused:

 

I guess I was starting with her opening line where she said they were being raised bilingually. You are right that there is a difference and I was presuming that she was doing the education bilingually.

 

I see your point, but I am not quite sure what it would mean to "study additional areas in German".

 

I was just trying to find the article about the trilingual school I'd read about...They cycled through the subjects in the different languages. ..You are right regentrude that there is not that much vocabulary in math, a bit more for science, but certainly there is a large vocabulary difference in the social sciences. At the same time, the higher you go in a discipline, there more important the vocabulary is, even in math...So if I would look at a Calculus book in German, I would have no clue about their explanations...It is not automatically transferrable..whereas for Algebra I, it would be a lot easier...the same for more complicated texts about physics...can the student write all the explanations in German?, for example. The higher up you go the more vocabulary specific you would get.

 

But then go to the social sciences and try to write up a term paper that is well written in the second language, and that would take some training. BUT it you had lots of dialogue about such topics already at home in that second language, then it would not be so difficult to make the transition.

 

I can't really speak about German, but when it comes to writing in French, there is a lot to learn to be able to write well in the different disciplines if you haven't read about those topics in that language, and I would think that for biology, where you have to write more than for physics (I'm guessing), there is terminology you need to know that even I don't know without study in my native tongue...

 

BUT - I don't think it would be that difficult to do especially at the AP level - speaking for French here -...because some of the science books have been directly translated into French. Eg. Biology (the daddy Campbell) is translated into French, Hecht's Physics is translated...so if you have the two books, it would be quite easy to read side by side to get up to speed.

 

For the bilingual school where my ds2 went, they would do approx half the subjects in French and half in German (I think actually a bit less in German)...and then you can look at the Swiss matura with mention "bilingue" to see what they test to give that kind of diploma...and they called themselves a bilingual school...You could google bilingual schools in the US to see what their curriculum is like....

 

Ester Maria - about the title Heritage Language...I've worked on making a one page transcript for high school and it gets really tight, and that with very brief kinds of course names...but I guess if you go to two pages, it would be possible...

 

Joan

[regentrude]

..You are right regentrude that there is not that much vocabulary in math, a bit more for science, but certainly there is a large vocabulary difference in the social sciences.

 

Yes, that is true.

 

At the same time, the higher you go in a discipline, there more important the vocabulary is, even in math...So if I would look at a Calculus book in German, I would have no clue about their explanations...It is not automatically transferrable..whereas for Algebra I, it would be a lot easier...the same for more complicated texts about physics...can the student write all the explanations in German?, for example. The higher up you go the more vocabulary specific you would get.

Actually, I do not find this true in math or physics - because the harder the material, the more it is possible to explain everything through mathematical equations, without using many words.

Whether the thing is called Taylorentwicklung or taylor series, Ableitung or derivative, the expression will be the same and speak for itself. Irrespective of whether you call it Ladungsverteilung or charge distribution - the result of the Gauss integral is identical.

 

But then go to the social sciences and try to write up a term paper that is well written in the second language, and that would take some training. BUT it you had lots of dialogue about such topics already at home in that second language, then it would not be so difficult to make the transition.

Agreed. We model our studies according to what they do in German schools and actually write a lot less than the typical American student. When I went to school in Germany, we would write maybe four essays each year - there was MUCH less focus on writing. Still, we are able to write (and I am wondering how much practice is really necessary and whether many programs are not overkill in that department.)

Btw, we do discuss orally in both languages.

 

I can't really speak about German, but when it comes to writing in French, there is a lot to learn to be able to write well in the different disciplines if you haven't read about those topics in that language, and I would think that for biology, where you have to write more than for physics (I'm guessing), there is terminology you need to know that even I don't know without study in my native tongue...

You are probably right. OTOH, looking at things from a practical perspective: for the scientifically minded student it is not very important to write about science in a language other than English - if he pursues a science major, even in Germany, he will never be required to write in any language BUT English, except maybe his doctoral thesis. (During all my undergraduate and graduate years, the ONLY pieces of writing I ever produced were my doctoral thesis in German, and two scientific articles in English.)

There is virtually no scientific literature anymore, and every scientist MUST be proficient in writing English. Many German universities have begun teaching science courses in English, and you may submit your doctoral thesis in English in most schools.

 

The situation is probably entirely different in social sciences, and I readily acknowledge that we are probably not up to scratch there - but NEITHER in English NOR in German, LOL.

 

ETA:

Just an interesting tidbit about knowledge transfer from one language to another. When I moved here and started my teaching position, I had never seen an introductory physics text in English. I had done my very specific research and had read many English publications in that specific area, but had never seen an English college textbook for the basics - all my education had been in German. There were quite a few terms that I did not know. Yet all it took was learning those few words as I went along, and I was able to actually TEACH the class... so I think, once material is understood in one language, there is a large knowledge transfer to the second language WITHOUT having formally studied the subject in that language.

(Of course, this may not translate into writing intensive social sciences.)

Edited August 20, 2011 by regentrude

[Matryoshka]

Agreed. We model our studies according to what they do in German schools and actually write a lot less than the typical American student. When I went to school in Germany, we would write maybe four essays each year - there was MUCH less focus on writing. Still, we are able to write (and I am wondering how much practice is really necessary and whether many programs are not overkill in that department.)

Btw, we do discuss orally in both languages.

 

LOL - my cousin from Germany is visiting at the moment. She went to a Classical Gymnasium and also spent 6 mos. at a US high school where she was told to enroll in regular, not honors, classes because she wasn't a native speaker.

 

She said they regularly wrote 40+ page papers in her Gymnasium, but the US English class only expected one one-page paper on a book the whole time she was there (and was shocked that she'd actually read more than one book in her life - yikes!).

[regentrude]

She said they regularly wrote 40+ page papers in her Gymnasium,

 

Interesting. We never had to write a single long paper.

[Ester Maria]

Interesting. We never had to write a single long paper.

In my country, we had to write a lengthy graduation thesis, but other than that, writing assignments - compared to the US school culture - also seem to have been few and far between, and it was almost exclusively letters and philosophy. In other subjects, I recall maybe an odd writing assignment (for example, I recall that one year I had to actually submit something in writing for Chemistry :confused:), but generally, writing was not a part of the picture.

 

But our exams, on the whole, seem to have been tougher. In the US school culture they seem to bypass many things by essays, while it would have been unheard of in my school to give a grade in history or literature based on the written production alone. You would never get away without a "proper" exam, whether in the written or in the oral form - typically both.

[regentrude]

But our exams, on the whole, seem to have been tougher. In the US school culture they seem to bypass many things by essays, while it would have been unheard of in my school to give a grade in history or literature based on the written production alone. You would never get away without a "proper" exam, whether in the written or in the oral form - typically both.

 

Yes, our exams were tougher too. They tested actual content knowledge, and I never had a single multiple choice exam. Except for at the end of 12th, there were no actual oral exams, it was all written (maybe 3 exams per subject per year, with no grades for homework or quizzes). Oral participation in class did play a role for the end-of-year grades, though.

 

The college prep high school finals were comprehensive exams in math, languages, social studies and sciences. You had (and still have) to take several written exams and several oral exams, all in a short time period at the end of 12th grade. I find comprehensive exams to be a much better measure of actual learning than bi-weekly unit tests.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

This thread is very a-propos for me too. My son is entering 9th grade, and I am now faced with naming his classes. He does French as a first language through CNED, his other subjects through Kolbe Academy. However, his written work is half French half English (we alternate from one paper to the next). His oral discussions are all in French, his exams are in English because I have to return them to Kolbe.

 

I have to please the local government which mandates French schooling, and Kolbe which requires work to be done in English. This is why the written work is done in either language, so that I have some to show in French, and some to show in English in every subject. This is as bilingual as it gets! How can I have the course names reflect the fact that he got a bilingual education? Any ideas for me?

 

If I list French as a First Language, would that count as his Foreign Language requirement? (talk about having it backwards! English is his Foreign Language ;-) ) I don't care much, because he does have Spanish as a true Foreign Language.

[Joan in GE]

This is as bilingual as it gets! How can I have the course names reflect the fact that he got a bilingual education? Any ideas for me?

 

I would really put "bilingual" in the name of your school. When I think of how the bilingual school my son attended did it, there was the description of the program of the school which stated clearly for the bilingual program, which courses were taught in German. It would be in the school philosophy. And if you are not writing up one of those, then it could be in the course descriptions. Then at the end of his program, the students did the matu with "mention bilingue" so that everyone knows what they did. I guess you don't really have such exams (unless you want to try to go the Swiss route - I know someone who was accepted at McGill from a Swiss high school).

 

Otherwise you could just put after the course name (in English) or (in French) so it is clear what language it was taught in.

 

In my country, we had to write a lengthy graduation thesis, but other than that, writing assignments - compared to the US school culture - also seem to have been few and far between, and it was almost exclusively letters and philosophy. In other subjects, I recall maybe an odd writing assignment (for example, I recall that one year I had to actually submit something in writing for Chemistry :confused:), but generally, writing was not a part of the picture.

 

But our exams, on the whole, seem to have been tougher. In the US school culture they seem to bypass many things by essays, while it would have been unheard of in my school to give a grade in history or literature based on the written production alone. You would never get away without a "proper" exam, whether in the written or in the oral form - typically both.

 

It is funny what I saw in my ds2's program...they did not seem to do that much "writing" of papers for class, but the exams were largely essay or short essay answers. So in fact, they had to know how to express themselves well in writing.

 

They had orals and written exams all through the last three years of high school and for the "matu" (end of high school Swiss exam) - I don't think they had any multiple choice - or maybe just a few questions occasionally...

 

Agreed. We model our studies according to what they do in German schools and actually write a lot less than the typical American student. When I went to school in Germany, we would write maybe four essays each year - there was MUCH less focus on writing. Still, we are able to write (and I am wondering how much practice is really necessary and whether many programs are not overkill in that department.)

Btw, we do discuss orally in both languages.

 

Well, we got sidetracked from your original question by the possibility of you calling your program/homeschool a 'bilingual' one, and then went into the definitions of that...if you are going back to just naming your courses in a way that describes the actuality of high level German work instead of doing a bilingual program, it is simpler.....From what you have said of your program though, how it is light on the social sciences, it seems like you are much more concerned about the math and science, so then the "German" studies are meant to show an additional area of proficiency? (since you are talking about how to "sell" their studies...)

 

There were quite a few terms that I did not know. Yet all it took was learning those few words as I went along, and I was able to actually TEACH the class... so I think, once material is understood in one language, there is a large knowledge transfer to the second language WITHOUT having formally studied the subject in that language.

 

Well ds3 is about to embark on all coursework in French at the polytech - so we'll see how it goes...he's done French in French, geography in French, started some high school bio in French but stopped because the EAD materials were so antiquated, then he reads the paper and books in French. He did a Biology test in 8th grade in French and math tests from 7-9 in French and that's it for science/math in French....

 

Part of the big experiment,

Joan

Edited August 21, 2011 by Joan in Geneva

[Ester Maria]

If I list French as a First Language, would that count as his Foreign Language requirement? (talk about having it backwards! English is his Foreign Language ;-) ) I don't care much, because he does have Spanish as a true Foreign Language.

I am actually not even sure that bilingual schools "have" to have a foreign language - you would have English 9 & French 9, English 10 & French 10, etc. I doubt anyone would question it (within the American system), even if you did not have Spanish. I am not sure how it is in Canada, though - since you have two official languages, maybe studying them does not cut it since the other one is considered a national language and you still have to have a foreign language?

 

"First language" in the context of education has little to do, chronologically, with what is the child's first language or what they speak at home. Children who are educated in fully fledged bilingual programs do not really have first and second language, but two first languages, because they study in each of those a full load, with literature, according to the programs intended for native speakers educated in that language.

 

I suppose you could either list the subjects by the languages / put * next to subjects in the less common language and then write a note about it afterward OR you could have a bilingual transcript in which you write the titles of all subjects in both languages - this is what I have seen some bilingual schools do, without even notifying which subjects were taught in which language, if they have a situation similar to yours, where languages mix even within a single subject. They just translate the whole transcript, all subjects, a bit liks this:

Philosophy / Philosophie .... B

French and Literature / Francais et litterature ..... A

etc.

[regentrude]

From what you have said of your program though, how it is light on the social sciences, it seems like you are much more concerned about the math and science, so then the "German" studies are meant to show an additional area of proficiency? (since you are talking about how to "sell" their studies...)

 

 

I would not exactly say we are light on social sciences - we do four years of history, in chronological order, with Great Books, a la WTM.

We are, however, light on electives. I believe in strong rigorous core subjects (and in math and science we probably do spend a lot more time than an average high school course). We also invest quite some time into German related things: formal literature, writing, immersion over the summers. Which means, much of the time others spend on various electives or academic summer camps we spend strengthening German language skills. So I think it would only be fair to reflect this focus on the transcript.

Proficiency is easily demonstrated through an SAT or AP test. My question was really about how I demonstrate that we invested the time into these studies, i.e. through credits on the transcript.

[In The Great White North]

This thread is very a-propos for me too. My son is entering 9th grade, and I am now faced with naming his classes. He does French as a first language through CNED, his other subjects through Kolbe Academy. However, his written work is half French half English (we alternate from one paper to the next). His oral discussions are all in French, his exams are in English because I have to return them to Kolbe.

 

I have to please the local government which mandates French schooling, and Kolbe which requires work to be done in English. This is why the written work is done in either language, so that I have some to show in French, and some to show in English in every subject. This is as bilingual as it gets! How can I have the course names reflect the fact that he got a bilingual education? Any ideas for me?

 

If I list French as a First Language, would that count as his Foreign Language requirement? (talk about having it backwards! English is his Foreign Language ;-) ) I don't care much, because he does have Spanish as a true Foreign Language.

Sadly, I think you may have to create a different transcript depending on what college you are sending it to, in order to avoid extraneous hoops to jump through. If you are applying to an American college, you don't want to call English your foreign language because they will make you take the TOEFL. Likewise, if you are applying to a French school, you don't want French to appear to be the foreign language.

 

The Kantonalschule in Chur, CH offers a German-Italian or German-Romansch Matura. The courses are listed in whichever language they were taught (ie. history and biology in Romansch, everything else in German.) Of course, that is a state run school providing diplomas for their state run university. That your individual courses are in both languages will be harder to explain.

 

Honestly, that's exactly the sort of thing the application essay is good for.

[Ester Maria]

We also invest quite some time into German related things: formal literature, writing, immersion over the summers. Which means, much of the time others spend on various electives or academic summer camps we spend strengthening German language skills. So I think it would only be fair to reflect this focus on the transcript.

Proficiency is easily demonstrated through an SAT or AP test. My question was really about how I demonstrate that we invested the time into these studies, i.e. through credits on the transcript.

I think it depends chiefly on what exactly do your German studies consist of. If you do a program which is an equivalent or comparable to what students in Germany do (with the readings they do, types of examinations they go through, written ouput requested from them, etc.), i.e. if you really do a German German program, I think it is only fair to list it as your second first language, and to thus have German 9, German 10, etc. That is not exactly German for heritage speakers. In most other cases, I would call it German for heritage speakers and award credit based on what you did for that class / hours invested, like for any other class - so, all that formal literature and writing to you do, you keep a record of it and when you have invested whatever are your time criteria and accomplishment criteria, you award credit. Maybe that will be a credit each year, maybe a credit over two years, depending on your pace and focus, but it would be noted.

 

I would not count immersion experience, though - in my eyes that is still a part of "life", rather than "school", especially if those are repetitive experiences that are a product of a lifestyle, rather than a specifically thought-out experience to specifically aid studies. Even though a lot of learning happens in "life", I think you would have to formalize it somehow to make it "school". For example, I do not take stays in Israel, with Hebrew speakers or random synagogue experiences to be a part of my daugthers' formal Hebrew education, even though those are definitely life experiences which include Hebrew, happen in Hebrew or largely aid Hebrew studies - if I had to award credit for their Hebrew studies, I would keep record of the time they spend on the formal stuff, find some sort of organizing principle in that formal stuff to make it a course, have some sort of exam at the end of the credit completion and then award the grade. You may feel differently about this than me, though, I tend to err on the "stingy" side, LOL. If I were you I would probably simply do German as German speakers (via German school materials and programs) and award credit yearly - by calling it German 9, 10, etc.

[Matryoshka]

Interesting. We never had to write a single long paper.

 

I'm going to see her again in a couple of days. I'll ask her more details to see how often she really wrote that much and in what subjects. :) It is possible that she was engaging in a bit of hyperbole.

Edited August 22, 2011 by matroyshka

[Joan in GE]

Proficiency is easily demonstrated through an SAT or AP test.

 

Since I'm not sure if you are including European types of exams here which would show C1 level for example, I would say that the level of proficiency yours are reaching are not nearly reflected by SAT or AP exams...They could probably easily do this in 9th grade or younger. So then you need exams which show the higher level of achievement for the remaining years...You could probably use some of the European exams for the higher levels...

 

Sadly, I think you may have to create a different transcript depending on what college you are sending it to, in order to avoid extraneous hoops to jump through. If you are applying to an American college, you don't want to call English your foreign language because they will make you take the TOEFL. Likewise, if you are applying to a French school, you don't want French to appear to be the foreign language.

 

snip

 

Honestly, that's exactly the sort of thing the application essay is good for.

:iagree:

 

if you really do a German German program, I think it is only fair to list it as your second first language, and to thus have German 9, German 10, etc.

 

Now I understand what was meant before and can see your point...

 

I would not count immersion experience, though - in my eyes that is still a part of "life", rather than "school", especially if those are repetitive experiences that are a product of a lifestyle, rather than a specifically thought-out experience to specifically aid studies. Even though a lot of learning happens in "life", I think you would have to formalize it somehow to make it "school".

 

I counted as some class time - hours which were spent in conversation with only French speaking friends...so if they were together for 5 hours, I wouldn't count that as 5 hours but as 2 depending on the activity because one of my goals was good conversational skills and another was exposure to French speakers who don't have an accent ...I didn't count every encounter and if they went to a camp...I'd just give a couple of hours a day. For me this was the same as language study trips taken in a foreign country - they should get some credit... But our total number of hours for French IV (for example) was way beyond anything required for a credit, so I guess I counted them for fun.:)

 

OR you could have a bilingual transcript in which you write the titles of all subjects in both languages - this is what I have seen some bilingual schools do, without even notifying which subjects were taught in which language, if they have a situation similar to yours, where languages mix even within a single subject. They just translate the whole transcript, all subjects, a bit liks this:

Philosophy / Philosophie .... B

French and Literature / Francais et litterature ..... A

etc.

 

I liked this idea but forgot to say so....

 

Joan

Edited August 23, 2011 by Joan in Geneva