How important is it to take the AP test?

[Teachin'Mine]

I'm thinking of the calculus AB and/or BC tests and wondering if it matters whether they are taken if the student continues with calculus and higher math beyond this. Is the test which demonstrates proficiency important if all the skills learned must be used for higher math? Trying to avoid the cost of the test - I think I've heard they're $85 - if it's not necessary. Thinking as I'm writing, that's probably the only way to have the course weighed more if admissions does weigh GPAs. :tongue_smilie:

 

Also, is the AB test totally separate from the BC? IOW does the cost for the test apply to both levels, or would it be unnecessary to take the AB if the BC will be taken?

 

Thank you for any BTDT. :)

[flyingiguana]

Some schools do have a placement test that might allow the student to move on in calculus, but I suspect more do not. They depend on the AP test to determine whether a student can take the higher level math or not. So if your student does calculus but doesn't take the test, they might have to repeat calculus.

 

A few schools don't even give credit for the AP test. You'd need to check with the college.

 

The BC test has an AB portion (it's not real obvious, but they score it that way.) The student will get both a BC and an AB score if they only take the BC test. So it is possible to get a good score on the AB part, score badly on the BC part, and still place out of the first semester of calculus.

 

Or the student can just take the AB test.

 

The 85 dollars seems like a lot, but if you compare that to tuition and a textbook at college, it seems like peanuts.

[8filltheheart]

I would say it is going to depend on the objectives of the individual. Will there be any outside verification of subject matter? (any SAT 2 scores, outside grades?) Where do they want to attend college? (a public university, a small private university, a competitive university?) Answers to those questions are going to make the difference.

[kiana]

It is not necessary to take the AB if you take the BC.

 

When you said 'continue on with higher level math', did you mean at university, at home, or what? If at university, they may require AP calc, or they may have their own placement test. Check with the university you're attending.

 

If at home, some independent verification may be a good thing to have. It doesn't necessarily have to be AP calc -- if they have taken calc at home and also scored very well on SAT 2, that'd be good as well -- but they still might need the AP course for placement and credit at university.

[Teachin'Mine]

Thank you so much for explaining that an AB score will be given with the BC test. :)

 

As we'll have run out of Saxon texts :tongue_smilie:I'm thinking that the higher math will have to be done through a cc. So she would have outside verification of grades for those classes. I don't know what type of college she will be most interested in when the time comes, but I think she'll be trying for some highly competitive ones.

[Joan in GE]

I would say it is going to depend on the objectives of the individual.

 

It was mandatory over here to be admitted.

 

But I also am not against studying hard to take a test (as long as it is not cramming) because there is some evidence to show that preparing for tests can increase learning.

 

Even if it wasn't mandatory here, I'd want mine to face challenging testing situations before going to university (as 8fth said - it depends on your objectives).... So we do as many standardized tests as possible, to help decrease testing anxiety further along...

 

It's also hard to find tests otherwise that cover all the material for the year...so generally it seems that American tests are just chapter and occasionally semester tests, which means that most info is just in the short term memory banks...unless your student is into reviewing.

 

Joan

[kiana]

The CC may require the AP score in order to place into post-calculus courses. Check with the intended CC before you make your decision.

[Teachin'Mine]

That's exactly why so much of what I learned in high school has been forgotten - I memorized for the tests and then forgot it since it never entered into long term memory. Having to review the whole year for tests like Regents and SAT subject tests definitely helped in those subjects. I guess I don't think of math in terms of needing to review the whole year since it seems that each concept builds on a previous one. Some of that may also be due to Saxon's continual built in review. But I definitely agree that taking standardized tests is great practice.

[wapiti]

FWIW, an admissions person at a very highly selective school (a friend ;)) recently told me that a student would need calc BC to be competitive. What I forgot to ask her was when, i.e., whether the course and exam would need to be taken Junior year, or whether taking the course during Senior year would be sufficient.

[Teachin'Mine]

The CC may require the AP score in order to place into post-calculus courses. Check with the intended CC before you make your decision.

 

Good point. They would give her a test for math placement.

[Elizabeth in WA]

Good point. They would give her a test for math placement.

 

Check carefully that they give a placement test for anything higher than Calc I entrance because the common standardized placement tests (COMPASS, Accuplacer) top out there. So they would have to have a department test specifically for placement within (or above) the calculus sequence. Some schools are willing to do this, but many do rely on AP for this purpose.

[Laura in CA]

Check carefully that they give a placement test for anything higher than Calc I entrance because the common standardized placement tests (COMPASS, Accuplacer) top out there. So they would have to have a department test specifically for placement within (or above) the calculus sequence. Some schools are willing to do this, but many do rely on AP for this purpose.

 

Some schools do have a placement test that might allow the student to move on in calculus, but I suspect more do not. They depend on the AP test to determine whether a student can take the higher level math or not. So if your student does calculus but doesn't take the test, they might have to repeat calculus.

 

My son is signed up to take Calc III at the local CC this coming fall. When I said he had a 5 on the AP Calc BC, the doors flew open and he did not have to take the CC's math assessment test (which may not have covered Calc I and II ... most incoming students place into pre-algebra, alg. 1 and alg. 2 -- there are literally scores of sections of those classes, and ONE section of Calc III).

 

I LOVE that he has a good AP score -- it is an objective, authoritative measure of his work and knowledge. Even Oxford in England and the unis in Switzerland acknowledge AP scores.

 

As far as I know, at our CC the only alternative to having an AP score is to have taken Calc I and II at the CC, and my son wanted to go directly into Calc III. Many hs'ers we know start with Calc I at the CC.

 

 

The 85 dollars seems like a lot, but if you compare that to tuition and a textbook at college, it seems like peanuts.

 

:iagree:

 

When I went to college with my 5 on the Calc BC, I was given 10 units of credit (quarter system, where 15 units per quarter is a full load). That college now costs over $52,000/year, so 10 quarter units is 'equivalent' to about $11,500. Now of course they don't hand you $11,500 in cash (although that would be nice!), and of course we won't be able to pay $52k/yr for my son (if he doesn't get merit and/or need-based $$ at an expensive school, he'll go with a less-expensive alternative), but that does make $85 seem like a bargain! I knew students who did finish up college in 3 years, thanks to AP and CC credits, so AP exam scores can translate into real savings.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Laura in CA

[Teachin'Mine]

Check carefully that they give a placement test for anything higher than Calc I entrance because the common standardized placement tests (COMPASS, Accuplacer) top out there. So they would have to have a department test specifically for placement within (or above) the calculus sequence. Some schools are willing to do this, but many do rely on AP for this purpose.

 

You're right. The regular placement test doesn't test for calculus at all. The math dept. would test her for placement when the time comes. She's planning on finishing Saxon Calculus this year but it's usually done in 3 semesters, so we'll see. Even if she does finish and takes the BC, I'm hoping that she'll start with Calculus 2 instead of 3 so she has an easier introduction into learning math in a lecture format and to ensure there are no gaps, but we'll see what they suggest when the time comes.

[Teachin'Mine]

FWIW, an admissions person at a very highly selective school (a friend ;)) recently told me that a student would need calc BC to be competitive. What I forgot to ask her was when, i.e., whether the course and exam would need to be taken Junior year, or whether taking the course during Senior year would be sufficient.

 

Thank you for the insider info!!! :) If she meant that the score from the BC was needed, then it would have to be in junior year or sooner, but I guess it would be just fine to have it scheduled on the senior transcript. That would still show the level of academics and mathematical ability of the student.

[Teachin'Mine]

My son is signed up to take Calc III at the local CC this coming fall. When I said he had a 5 on the AP Calc BC, the doors flew open and he did not have to take the CC's math assessment test (which may not have covered Calc I and II ... most incoming students place into pre-algebra, alg. 1 and alg. 2 -- there are literally scores of sections of those classes, and ONE section of Calc III).

 

I LOVE that he has a good AP score -- it is an objective, authoritative measure of his work and knowledge. Even Oxford in England and the unis in Switzerland acknowledge AP scores.

 

As far as I know, at our CC the only alternative to having an AP score is to have taken Calc I and II at the CC, and my son wanted to go directly into Calc III. Many hs'ers we know start with Calc I at the CC.

 

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

When I went to college with my 5 on the Calc BC, I was given 10 units of credit (quarter system, where 15 units per quarter is a full load). That college now costs over $52,000/year, so 10 quarter units is 'equivalent' to about $11,500. Now of course they don't hand you $11,500 in cash (although that would be nice!), and of course we won't be able to pay $52k/yr for my son (if he doesn't get merit and/or need-based $$ at an expensive school, he'll go with a less-expensive alternative), but that does make $85 seem like a bargain! I knew students who did finish up college in 3 years, thanks to AP and CC credits, so AP exam scores can translate into real savings.

 

Thank you for putting the cost into perspective. :)

 

Has he taken any other cc classes or will calc III his first? Would love to hear an update on how he finds the transition. :)

Edited August 6, 2011 by Teachin'Mine

[Laura in CA]

 

Has he taken any other cc classes or will calc III his first? Would love to hear an update on how he finds the transition. :)

 

This will be his first cc class ... I, too, am curious how it will go. :001_smile:

I'll try to remember to give an update here. Classes start in 10 days (eek!).

 

Your plan to start with Calc 2 sounds wise. My son wanted to jump in the deep end, so I'm trying to respect that, but as he's only 14, I'm going to impress upon him the importance of taking notes, participating in class, NOT staring into space (a habit of his while he's thinking furiously -- but you'd never know it, haha), sitting near the front, etc. I did do some legwork beforehand -- I corresponded with the teacher and also viewed his feedback on ratemyprofessor.com. The consensus was that he was tough but fair, and geeky and funny - sounds perfect for my son. He prides himself on being the toughest math teacher at our CC - also a good fit, since my son is serious about math; he'll just have to deal with long problem sets, so I've cleared my son's schedule this fall of busywork ... I got good vibes from my emails with the professor -- he seemed intrigued, not annoyed, at having a 14yo in his class. I also asked Kathy in Richmond which sections of the AoPS precalculus book would be good to brush up on (since there are topics in that book that are useful to know for multivariable calculus), and she generously told me which sections my son should study ... and with a few gentle nudges from me, he did study them.

 

So what I'm trying to say in a long-winded way is that I think we've prepared pretty thoroughly, and now it's up to my son! Having Calc III be his first CC class is probably wise, since math is his strength. If he likes the CC and adapts well, we may try physics next year, as well as higher maths such as diff eq's.

 

ETA: We also walked around the campus and found his classroom already. Also, about having his very first lecture class - I should add that this boy is a real extrovert, so he is looking forward to meeting his fellow students and the professor. I think he will enjoy the interaction. Other kids might take longer to acclimatize, which is perhaps partly why the other hs'ers we know started with Calc I. Also, my son has taken at least a half-dozen online classes through Potter's School and PA Homeschoolers, so he is used to deadlines.

 

I see in your post above you are worried about "gaps" if going from BC to Calc III -- I was worried about gaps, too, and asked the professor. He said he's not worried, but he doesn't have much experience with kids coming in to Calc III from BC ... so I suppose that would be another good thing to report back on later! Of course CCs vary in their rigor, but the math teachers at our CC assured me that nothing is watered down, and that the classes are transferable to the UCs and CSUs ...

Edited August 6, 2011 by Laura in CA

[Teachin'Mine]

Thank you for sharing regarding your son. :)

 

Now I have more questions. :lol:

 

Learning math from a teacher and taking notes during a lecture would be totally new for my dd. She's used to learning directly from the texts so this plays into why I'd like her to start with calc 2. Like your son, I think she'd love being with other math geeks too. :) Sounds like your son will have a good professor!

 

Has your son done statistics? Will he be taking statistics at some point at the cc? With your son being advanced, will he run out of math classes at the cc before he's ready to be graduated from high school?

 

I'm asking about statistics because I think it's a great course to take for a variety of subject areas, but I'm not so sure it would be wise to interrupt the calculus sequence to fit it in. I was wondering if they've given him suggestions on the order of courses to take. I know some do it concurrent with calculus, but dd's schedule is quite full as it is.

[Laura in CA]

 

Has your son done statistics? Will he be taking statistics at some point at the cc? With your son being advanced' date=' will he run out of math classes at the cc before he's ready to be graduated from high school?[/quote']

 

Yes, I think he will run out of *CC* math classes, but there is plenty out there *not* at the CC that he wants to study, such as AoPS books, including their Intermediate Counting & Probability text. Also, I know some folks on this board whose kids took an entire year to study multivariable calculus, using an older text such as Marsden & Tromba. Since the CC does Calc III in one semester, there's obviously more he could be learning. We will probably try to find a tutor for him if/when we go this route. IF he likes the learning environment at the CC, that will keep him occupied for two years, with Calc III, linear algebra, ordinary diff eqs, and "discrete math." We'll see how this first class goes, before I panic about scheduling, tutors, etc.! :001_smile:

 

I'm asking about statistics because I think it's a great course to take for a variety of subject areas, but I'm not so sure it would be wise to interrupt the calculus sequence to fit it in. I was wondering if they've given him suggestions on the order of courses to take. I know some do it concurrent with calculus, but dd's schedule is quite full as it is.

 

I agree about not taking on too many hard classes at once. I'm trying to give my son time to just be a kid ... his absolute favorite thing right now is hanging out with friends and biking around town. I love that hs'ing gives us time for that, and also that my son is "normal" and sociable, despite my best efforts at being a Tiger Mom :001_smile:. He was just asked this weekend to be a TA for the AP Calculus class he took last year, so that will take some additional time, but will be a great review of his calculus, plus I know he'll be good at it -- he likes to help people and thinks he may want to be a math teacher/professor when he grows up.

 

Also, since my son is definitely going into a science- or math-related field, we thought we wouldn't do AP Stats, because it's not calculus-based. The order the CC recommends is

 

multivariable calculus

discrete math

linear algebra

ordinary differential equations

 

They also have some probability/statistics classes that I haven't looked into yet. I don't know how interesting/challenging/relevant they will be (may be more for business majors?).

 

Anyway, best wishes with your decisions!

 

~Laura

[Teachin'Mine]

The AoPS text looks like an interesting option. :)

 

Congratulations to your son - it sounds like a great opportunity!

 

If there's time, I think a statistics course is helpful for many areas of study - of course business, but also natural sciences, social sciences, and others. But hopefully next year she'll have someone, other than me, to give her guidance on which courses to take. :tongue_smilie: