I need help - my 12yo ds has a terrible time learning.

[mazakaal]

He's in 6th grade this year and I've struggled with him for years. I really thought the main issue was rebellion on his part - not wanting to sit still, not wanting to listen to mom. Things have gotten more difficult the last 2 years. We have done a lot of travelling the last 2 years and I'm sure that's taken its toll, but I've not noticed the same difficulties with my other son (10yo).

 

At the end of last school year I was ready to throw in the towel with him and send him to school. I felt like he had hardly learned anything the whole year. Then I decided to take an easy year for him, letting him do Beyond Five in a Row and taking it at his own pace. At the last minute he begged me to do the same curriculum we had been doing in the past and promised that he would try harder. We've been doing pretty standard WTM recommended curriculum materials - Singapore math, R&S grammar (though we switched to Easy Grammar this year), LC (then switched to Latin Prep this year), MOH, Apologia science, WW, SW.

 

The first couple of months of this school year went all right, but then I started facing the same rebellion and attitude that I'd seen in the past. I got so frustrated by Christmas that I decided I had to change curriculum to something that didn't involve me teaching him. I considered ACE and several DVD programs (BJU, ABeka), and finally settled on SOS for LA, history, and science, and TT for math. I know it's not 'WTM approved'. No bashing please. I'm just trying to find something that will work for ds.

 

Anyway, he's doing great with math, and he likes SOS a lot more than what we've done in the past, I think because he can work independently, and he does pretty well on the lessons where he can go back to the reading to find answers to the questions. But when he gets to a test, he bombs it. He really doesn't seem capable of reading for comprehension. He can read other things and understand them, though. I've thought that it was a matter of him not being interested enough in school related things and I've talked about the importance of concentrating and reading slowly and reading through things several times. He says that he's really trying, but his scores are not showing that he's understood what he's read.

 

I really don't know what to do. Is there some program that I can use that would help him? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm on the verge of sending him off to school in the fall. I'm afraid if I do, that he won't learn a thing, though. But he doesn't seem to be learning anything from me either. I'm extremely discouraged. HELP!

[Colleen in NS]

I know it's not 'WTM approved'. No bashing please. I'm just trying to find something that will work for ds.

 

he does pretty well on the lessons where he can go back to the reading to find answers to the questions. But when he gets to a test, he bombs it. He really doesn't seem capable of reading for comprehension. He can read other things and understand them, though. I've thought that it was a matter of him not being interested enough in school related things and I've talked about the importance of concentrating and reading slowly and reading through things several times. He says that he's really trying, but his scores are not showing that he's understood what he's read.

 

Well, I'll give it a try here, if only to bump up your post! I admit, I'm quaking in my boots to try and answer this, since my kids aren't as old as yours...but my 10ds has some of the character traits you seem to have described (restless, energetic, likes to do things himself). :)

 

The thing that stands out in my mind as I read your post is the reading comprehension and that he says he's really trying to understand his reading.

 

So, the questions that come to mind are things like:

 

- What type of reading CAN he understand?

- What type of reading is he having a hard time comprehending?

- Is the material he has a hard time with boring to him?

- Would he be better off by reading material that is interesting to him (within a broad category of your choosing, such as "we'll study ancient history all this year using SOTW as our spine, and library books as supplements")?

- If he read material that is interesting to him, can you help him develop writing skills (narration, outlining from his books, writing from his outline) with that? (I'm thinking this might help develop his reading comprehension - if he reads something of interest to him, and then has to write about it in his own words, it'll force his mind to pay more attention to the reading)

 

I can only see a tiny glimpse from your post, but it seems like your son is a very bright person, who maybe just needs some focusing of energies into more interesting content, at the same time as working on developing skills. I'm a big fan of working on skills (writing, grammar, spelling, reading, math, etc.) more than making sure my kids learn particular facts about history or science or whatever. I know that if the skills are solid, then the learning about those content areas will come much more easily, and they won't bomb out on any tests of that material that come later. So, we practice the skills on our history and science, and they do retain a lot more of their reading because of it. That is the biggest thing I have gotten out of WTM - the bonus is that there is a sampling of materials recommended in there that help to achieve these goals.

 

hth somehow! :)

[8filltheheart]

I think the first issue you need to address is finding out what the real problem is. Until you know that, you can't work toward a resolution.

 

Comprehension is fairly easy to evaluate. Simply b/c a child is bombing tests does not mean he is not comprehending. Tests like SOS are looking for very specific answers and it may be an inability to discern important from unimportant and how to study.

 

I would pick a short story or purchase a simple reading comprehension book (you can get them by grade level from school supply stores) and either have him narrate the info to you or take the tests (personally the narration would give you a more accurate assessment)

 

If it is comprehension, 5 min re-tells (he reads for 5 mins and than narrates that section to you) is a way to improve both reading speed and comprehension.

 

If it is the inability to pick out important info vs the extras, books like Apologia which have bold faced words, study guide questions,etc spoon-feed students toward the info. I would go with a book like that that helps him sort through it. Watching educational videos and stopping every few minutes and discussing the vital info and teaching him how to take notes on important vs unimportant will also help.

 

If it a attitude issue, that is a totally different situation.

[mazakaal]

Thanks Colleen and momof7.

 

What he can comprehend is anything to do with surfing. He can tell you who is sponsored by Quiksilver or Billabong or Von Zipper. He can tell you which companies sponsor Andy Irons or Parko. He can tell you what the ratings are for each major surfer. He can tell you who the up and coming surfers are and where they're from. He gets all this from reading surf magazines and web sites.

 

He can also understand fiction pretty easily. He used to be an avid reader of Famous Five books, Hardy Boys, the Stormbreaker series. I still make him read historical fiction a half hour per day and he has to write at least a sentence about something that happened in the story. Usually it's just a very short sentence, but at least I know that he read and generally understood.

 

I know that he can understand things he's interested in and what he has trouble with is material he finds boring, but he needs to be able to make the effort even if he thinks it's boring. Honestly, if I tried to give him a choice about what to study, he would choose nothing. He's really not the least bit interested in academics. He wants to be a professional surfer.

 

I read about a homeschool mom who designed an entire curriculum around her ds's interest in baseball. Math was all about baseball statistics, history was all related to what was happening in the world when, for instance, Babe Ruth was alive. Science was the physics of hitting the ball, etc. I wish that I had the time and creativity to design a curriculum around ds's love of surfing, but I would have no idea how to start and with 3 other dc, I just don't have the time to do that.

 

I agree that learning the skills are what's truly important. Honestly, I don't care if he doesn't have a complete understanding of the human digestive system. My concern really is that reading for comprehension is a vital skill, and if he can't read the materials about the digestive system and answer some questions, then he won't be able to function properly in a job in the future. Because his chances of making a living as a pro surfer are not great.

 

But then I ask myself why I want him to have that skill. Will he really have a job that will require it? Maybe, even if he doesn't become a pro surfer, he will work in the surf industry in some other way. I don't know. It's late and I'm rambling now. I guess I need to know if this is something I need to be concerned about and if so, what do I do. I will work on those 5 minute narrations and the other ideas. Thanks, ladies.

[yslek]

Hi,

 

Sorry I can't offer much in the way of help/advice.

 

I have, however, heard of a product that's meant to help gauge reading comprehension, called "McCall-Crabbs Standard Test Lessons in Reading". Here is a link:

http://shop.morningstarlearning.com/product.sc?categoryId=2&productId=7

I've never used it personally, but would probably try it if I felt like I needed to work on reading comp.

 

I hope you are able to come to a resolution that works for both you and your ds.

 

(((hugs)))

 

Kelsy

[Rhondabee]

what I had to accept was that he simply wasn't naturally wired with built-in learning strategies. (I still have a hard time accepting this!)

 

So, I have had to maintain a very hands-on approach - specifically teaching "how to take notes" (and recognize what's important), drilling him on things that must be memorized, reviewing concepts frequently, helping him come up with thinking "short-cuts" (for example, we set alot of things to music), and even showing him test strategies.

 

I always took it for granted that everyone knew these things - I just teach my ds the things I always just "did" in school. I don't remember anyone telling me to do them.

 

FWIW, I don't think my son has any sort of learning disability, unless being extremely phlegmatic is a disability (and some days I think it might be - LOL!). My ds just really doesn't care about studying for grades, and so I have to be the "fire" underneath him, iykwim. I'm constantly chanting Ria's phrase, "Students need teachers," to myself. It is very tiring, and I'm so glad we've only got 5 days left!

 

Especially last year, when he was 12yo, I *really* thought hard about putting him back into school. But, I would *still* need to teach him these learning strategies. I figure it's easier to teach him as we go than try to teach him on top of a long public-school day.

 

Oh, the other thing I did was cut WAY back to just the very basics. Only when that got easy did I start adding the extras back in.

 

I know your ds isn't mine, and wish you the best! 12yo boys aren't easy even on their good days! ;)

Rhonda

[Kathy in MD]

I would get testing for LD's. Many children with LD's are labeled rebelious, won't listen, won't sit still, lazy, doesn't care, day dreams, can't comprehend, doesn't try....... and so on. Many of these labels applied to my ds, and then we found out his ears didn't work, his eyes didn't work and his body didn't work. He looked normal. But he wasn't and that's why he acted the way he did.

 

And yes, today my ds can quote football stats and other things that interest him. But he's had years of failure in academics that beat out his interest in that. OTOH, he was able to play football, play football and talk about it with his friends. He didn't suffer failure and humiliation. Naturally he wants to spend his mental energy on something that gives such emotional rewards and doesn't bring up past failures.

 

Go get testing. You might be surprised by the results.

[ticklbee]

He's in 6th grade this year and I've struggled with him for years. I really thought the main issue was rebellion on his part - not wanting to sit still, not wanting to listen to mom. Things have gotten more difficult the last 2 years. We have done a lot of travelling the last 2 years and I'm sure that's taken its toll, but I've not noticed the same difficulties with my other son (10yo).

 

At the end of last school year I was ready to throw in the towel with him and send him to school. I felt like he had hardly learned anything the whole year.

 

The above could have been written by me about my 12 yo dd. I too thought it was rebellion. I still don't have any answers but I know for sure that she does not want to work hard. Or think too hard. She asked me a question about an abacus the other day...why do they have two different color beads. I handed it to her and asked her to look at it and then see if she could tell me. Immediately she said " I don't know". When I tried to encourage her to make a guess I got "I'm sorry I even asked." That was it - no trying, no thinking, she just couldn't be bothered. This is just one example of a gazillion just like it.

 

So I truly feel your pain. I'm starting to realize that I'm not the only one with this kind of problem. I was just speaking to another mom at co-op today and she was talking about her oldest and I'm listening to her w/my mouth open - it was exactly as you described above and exactly what I've been going through. So, if anything, you can take comfort in the fact that your son is not the only one like this and it's NOT you.

[Colleen in NS]

but he needs to be able to make the effort even if he thinks it's boring. Honestly, if I tried to give him a choice about what to study, he would choose nothing. He's really not the least bit interested in academics. He wants to be a professional surfer.

 

I agree that learning the skills are what's truly important. Honestly, I don't care if he doesn't have a complete understanding of the human digestive system. My concern really is that reading for comprehension is a vital skill, and if he can't read the materials about the digestive system and answer some questions, then he won't be able to function properly in a job in the future. Because his chances of making a living as a pro surfer are not great.

 

But then I ask myself why I want him to have that skill.

 

I agree that being able to understand what you are reading, even if it's boring, is a necessary life skill - there are lots of boring things in life we need to be able to understand (the U.S. tax manuals come to mind - yuck)! :) As well as those interesting subjects we WANT to understand....

 

It sounds like you are doing the right things by pressing on with him, making him write about his reading every day, etc.. I agree with momof7 about narrating every little while about what he's reading and that you'll be able to tell what he understands if you have him do that. But you probably already know that. :) What about applying some of that skill to the reading he has to do for his tests that he scores low on?

 

From a few of the others' replies here, I am getting a glimpse at what it could be like at my house in a few more years with ds! In his earlier years, he read and read and absorbed so much information. He still reads, but now he will declare that he hates history. What he really hates is the thinking work that has to go into his writing about history (and I only have him write three or four sentences once a week about it, and a couple of narrations a week in other subjects!) I'm guessing from posts I've read here in past years about the age group, that it's an age thing. Perhaps it's the same for your son, like the others said.

 

Hang in there!

[Colleen in NS]

I'm constantly chanting Ria's phrase, "Students need teachers," to myself. It is very tiring

 

ME, TOO! That's the biggest thing I remember about her posts!

[mazakaal]

She asked me a question about an abacus the other day...why do they have two different color beads. I handed it to her and asked her to look at it and then see if she could tell me. Immediately she said " I don't know". When I tried to encourage her to make a guess I got "I'm sorry I even asked." That was it - no trying, no thinking, she just couldn't be bothered. This is just one example of a gazillion just like it.

 

This is the exact thing that happens with my ds. What a relief to hear that I'm not alone. I get so discouraged sometimes when I read homeschool books about the family taking such joy in learning about some topic, finding books about it, making projects, etc. I've wondered what I did wrong in his early years that he would rather do anything other than learn. Although it's more accurate to say that he just doesn't want to put any effort into learning because he can learn things he's interested in, like surfing.

 

Anyway, thanks so much for all the encouragement. I'm going to read back over these a few times and pray through what I should do. I think I'll also get a book that I just found on the Galore Park web site about study skills. Thanks everyone.:001_smile:

[mazakaal]

Okay, I don't know what I did wrong in my previous post, but the first paragraph is a quote from ticklbee. How do you guys make quotes come out highlighted?

[pandora99]

My oldest son has had many of the same difficulties for years. When he was in the 3rd grade we had him tested for LD's and that made such a difference in our lives. It turned out that our very bright young man had LDs in reading and writing so we needed to teach him some different strategies and his teachers (he goes to ps) had to make accomodations. He gets to use a graphic organizer for writing assignements and sometimes he is required to write a little less. He reads books that are on his reading level for reading. Since his textbooks for other subjects are on too high of a reading level, the teachers have to read aloud or provide textbooks that are on the computer so he can llisten to them and his tests are read aloud. Once he could understand the questions, his grades came back up dramatically.

 

Good luck!

[8filltheheart]

I know that he can understand things he's interested in and what he has trouble with is material he finds boring, but he needs to be able to make the effort even if he thinks it's boring. Honestly, if I tried to give him a choice about what to study, he would choose nothing. He's really not the least bit interested in academics. He wants to be a professional surfer.

 

I read about a homeschool mom who designed an entire curriculum around her ds's interest in baseball. Math was all about baseball statistics, history was all related to what was happening in the world when, for instance, Babe Ruth was alive. Science was the physics of hitting the ball, etc. I wish that I had the time and creativity to design a curriculum around ds's love of surfing, but I would have no idea how to start and with 3 other dc, I just don't have the time to do that.

 

I agree that learning the skills are what's truly important. Honestly, I don't care if he doesn't have a complete understanding of the human digestive system. My concern really is that reading for comprehension is a vital skill, and if he can't read the materials about the digestive system and answer some questions, then he won't be able to function properly in a job in the future. Because his chances of making a living as a pro surfer are not great.

 

But then I ask myself why I want him to have that skill. Will he really have a job that will require it? Maybe, even if he doesn't become a pro surfer, he will work in the surf industry in some other way. I don't know. It's late and I'm rambling now. I guess I need to know if this is something I need to be concerned about and if so, what do I do. I will work on those 5 minute narrations and the other ideas. Thanks, ladies.

 

Megan, there is absolutely no way I would let the interests of a 12 yr old dictate the direction of their education. He needs a broad education b/c that is what being educated is. All kids have subjects they do not like. It is part of human nature. Life is a long time. Interests change, needs exist, etc. YOu don't want your child pigeon-holed into a corner b/c of 12 yr old interests and temper-tantrums.

 

Now......how you apporach those subjects is a different matter. You don't have to use textbooks. You can find whole books on various topics and let him read them. (I hardly ever use textbooks prior to high school) You can make education hands-on. He can do oral reports with posters, etc. It doesn't have to be fill in the blank workbooks.

 

I do think that an educational evaluation may be needed. as others have posted, an LD may be behind the resistance and not simply an attitude. It is impossible for anyone to make that determination over a forum. Call your ped and ask them for a referral. You can do it through a ps or privately. (I would go through the ps since it is free)

 

Good luck.

[In The Great White North]

She asked me a question about an abacus the other day...why do they have two different color beads. I handed it to her and asked her to look at it and then see if she could tell me. Immediately she said " I don't know". When I tried to encourage her to make a guess I got "I'm sorry I even asked." That was it - no trying, no thinking, she just couldn't be bothered. This is just one example of a gazillion just like it.

 

This sounds like an issue of learning styles to me. I can relate! :001_smile: I can't stand the "Socratic method" and turn off immediately when someone pulls it on me (still, at 44). It drives me up the wall. When I ask a question, all I really want is the answer.

[ticklbee]

This sounds like an issue of learning styles to me. I can relate! :001_smile: I can't stand the "Socratic method" and turn off immediately when someone pulls it on me (still, at 44). It drives me up the wall. When I ask a question, all I really want is the answer.

 

 

I'm sure this drives my dd up the wall too, LOL! But the ability to think through a problem and come up with an answer is a skill that all children should develop - it will serve them well all of their lives.

 

Tom Clark from Video Text was just at our convention and he made this statement..."Children will not become critical thinkers if you do all their thinking for them" I agree with this 100%

[ticklbee]

Okay, I don't know what I did wrong in my previous post, but the first paragraph is a quote from ticklbee. How do you guys make quotes come out highlighted?

 

 

If you want to keep a quote make sure you keep the info within the brackets. If you delete the brackets at the beginning and end of the quote, it won't show up as a quote.

[In The Great White North]

I'm sure this drives my dd up the wall too, LOL! But the ability to think through a problem and come up with an answer is a skill that all children should develop - it will serve them well all of their lives.

 

Tom Clark from Video Text was just at our convention and he made this statement..."Children will not become critical thinkers if you do all their thinking for them" I agree with this 100%

 

:iagree: I can think through a problem and come up with an answer. And, of course, you don't want to do all their thinking for them.

 

But if she's "sorry I even asked," she's not learning it this way either. There must be another way of developing these skills (besides the questioning) that she responds to better.

[ticklbee]

:iagree: I can think through a problem and come up with an answer. And, of course, you don't want to do all their thinking for them.

 

But if she's "sorry I even asked," she's not learning it this way either. There must be another way of developing these skills (besides the questioning) that she responds to better.

 

Sometimes things don't come over in cyberspace the way I want them to. I did not mean to imply that you can't think through problems...I was just stating that it's a good skill for kids to develop. I'm sorry if you took it that way.

 

And when I said that I get the "sorry I even asked" - this is a character issue w/my dd and she doesn't only say that to school related things. It is said with lots and lots of attitude. And the eye rolls. She's not really sorry - she just doesn't want to be bothered.

 

I don't question her about everything. Actually, far from it. But when I do ask her a question I don't think it unreasonable to expect a sincere try from her. Again, it's a character issue we are working on.

[Guest]

The kid whose mom created everything around baseball sounds like she was dealing with a child with Asperger's. In which case, it was a great idea.

[Penny]

I understand that abacus example you used!

 

I so fully understand how difficult life is with the non thinking child. People who don't have one often believe that every child just loves to learn if we present it in the right way. And I really don't want to here that I just haven't found the right way to present the material! I've tried just about everything! And, it's not his diet either. I've gone down that route.

 

My child has no problem learning as long as he doesn't have to THINK. For example, he will listen to history stories, other life stories, but he will not analyze anything unless virtually forced to do it. He reads now without too much complaint because it no longer takes great mental effort, but to teach him to read was painful.

 

Maybe it is a LD; I've gone through all kinds of testing and costly intervention measures. The bottom line is that I have to make him think. The thing that works the best is Applied Behavior Analysis.

 

I feel for you; it is a tough life. But if we send them to 'school' I'm sure that at least mine would get nothing out of it. As it is, I can keep my child on grade level and even ahead in some areas.

 

Penny