French for somewhat bilingual children

[Aquinas Academy]

A bit of background: DH is francophone, I am not. Our kids have mostly been raised as English speakers. They do talk to DH in French; read some French books; listen to French radio, do French copywork, narration, and dication; and do some of their religion, science, and history studies in French. Everything else that they do is in English. Due to his job, DH has had to travel a lot, but over the years the amount of traveling he has to do has decreased and he has been able to spend more time at home speaking to our children in French. Both DS 2 and DS 6 are entirely bilingual. DD 7, DS 9, DD 13, and DD 14 all prefer to speak (read, write, etc.) English, but they are still quite fluent in French.

We have be using L'Art de Lire, and although I enjoy it, it is a bit on the easy side. My kids have great vocabularies, what they really need is grammar and writing practice. DD 13 has just finished L'Art de Lire. I was thinking of using Braking the Barrier Level Two with her next year, but again, I think it might be on the easy side. DD 14 is finishing up BtB Level Three. I'm not sure where we should go from here. I've been looking at the Collage textbooks. I don't really know much about them though and am still looking for a good curriculum to use.

Any recommendations of what would be good programmes? :)

[regentrude]

We are in a similar situation with German - kids are fluent in speaking and reading, but formal grammar and writing are lacking.

I found that, in this situation, materials work better that are used for children with German as a native language, in German schools, to teach them German.

(rather than American materials for learners of German, which are largely a waste of time)

So, in your situation, I would not use materials designed for French as a foreign language, but get materials used for teaching French students in France or Canada in their native French.

[Ester Maria]

Fundamentally it comes down to two components, (i) age-appropriate and education-appropriate literacy and (ii) the spoken interaction / production. It is difficult to be a balanced bilingual in terms of the former, it seems to me that very, very few people ever truly have zero preferences. I think my kids are among rare people like that (Italian - English), who can truly function in two languages on all levels needed, from youth slang to academia, without batting an eyelid. Sometimes they cannot even tell me if they read a particular book in English or in Italian, or if they studied some concept in English or in Italian :001_huh:, so "automatic" and "natural" are both languages for them, as is the "cultural translation" between the concepts from one culture and one language to the other one. Unbelievable, watching them grow has been an amazing experience for me - but it also solidified my view that such facility is only possible under specific life circumstances, where one almost literally simultaneously grows up in two cultures and in two lands, being educated in the matters and manners of both, rather than a default experience. Most heritage speakers I know, even if first generation born abroad and even if the other language was their dominant home language and even if they retained some connection with their home culture, at the end of the day, are not fully bilingual. Not without a systematic education in both languages and cultures, not without considerable and repetitive extended stays in the "other" homeland.

 

So, as discouraging as it might sound, in the end it just furthers the point that it is normal, your older children experiencing a strong preference for one language and culture and even, perhaps, a slight uneasiness with the other one, due to lack of that level of familiarity. The expression you used really is a good one: somewhat bilingual children. Not with two equally strong systems, but still far from typical language learners. You can accept it as a normal fact of life, conclude that they still know both languages and that that will be good enough... or you can go against the current and make them have two equal systems, which is hard to do without some specific life circumstances which would facilitate that.

 

What would boost your DD's French in terms of academics would be, frankly, using French materials aimed at native French-speaking children from French schools, rather than any sort of college French texts. It would also help to address specific cultural things which you probably do not study, but kids in French schools would study, i.e. not merely the language with literature on that level, but a whole load of French culture / history studies. In addition to that, I would seriously consider supplementing other studies with the same type of French materials or even switch to the bilingual education system in which some subjects are studied entirely in French. That would certainly help, learning French via specific academic content which also enhances the language, when I started "sneaking in" some Hebrew that way the girls' Hebrew went up a notch every time. We all found it really helpful, while having Hebrew restricted to home and friendly chit-chat and some Judaics has always had my DDs, at least the younger one, treat it "as not really a fully-fledged language" (her words :lol:). It was only when she figured that Hebrew could also be math, sciences, history, TV and beach books, and a full culture in and of itself, that she started taking it more seriously and considerably improved... still not what I would call trilingual, but hopefully we will get even close to that by graduation, one step at a time.

 

So, even if it seems that your DD has a lot of French in her life, maybe it is still somehow not "French of all levels", maybe it is lopsided in a particular direction and needs some balancing?

 

Another thing to note: your smaller kids are, well, smaller. Small kids equals small language needs, it is MUCH easier to be fully bilingual as a preschooler than as a teenager, as the amount of words, expressions, cultural propriety, advanced literacy as well as slang, simply doubles with time, and few people get there unless they live in such circumstances that would favor the equal development of both systems. It is not necessarily your DH's or your DDs' fault that your older children prefer English, it might as well be that that would have been the situation anyway at that age, with lopsised education, not enough time with the speakers of both languages, etc. No need to feel bad about it or feel inadequate, it really is a perfectly normal thing among most people who speak more than one language to a high extent. You can still do much to "tame" it, if you wish, by assuring a balance both in studies and language exposure and use, or even send the kid abroad for a semester / year (that often works wonders for bilingual kids in a similar situation, as they catch up a lot, so it is easier to keep up the language later on a higher extent than one normally would) - but I think the first step would definitely be to treat her like a French speaker, rather than like an English speaker learning French. So, French school materials would be in order, the study of French as native language with literature, etc. That is a good place to start, and to get DH help her. You can even sign her up for French distance education, I hear they have good stuff, but you should ask Cleo or some other francophone people on here about it as my own kid is still a "French toddler" (gets everything, but frustrated by her lack of active skills which would come close to the passive ones), so I have not looked into it much yet.

[Aquinas Academy]

Thank you so much Regentrude and Ester Maria! You are both so helpful.

So, in your situation, I would not use materials designed for French as a foreign language, but get materials used for teaching French students in France or Canada in their native French.

 

What would boost your DD's French in terms of academics would be, frankly, using French materials aimed at native French-speaking children from French schools, rather than any sort of college French texts. It would also help to address specific cultural things which you probably do not study, but kids in French schools would study, i.e. not merely the language with literature on that level, but a whole load of French culture / history studies. In addition to that, I would seriously consider supplementing other studies with the same type of French materials or even switch to the bilingual education system in which some subjects are studied entirely in French.

 

So, you both recommend using French texts instead of English-French texts. Do any French speakers have recommendations about what texts I should use?

As for homeschooling bilingually, I really like the idea. I'm not sure that studying some subjects only in French is practical for us, but supplementing is certainly something we could do. DC currently read some history and science books in French, but both of these subjects are still at least 80% English. As they get older the amount of academic French reading has also decreased because I just don't feel comfortable reading the great books in French. Although perhaps DD could read them in French and I could read them in English. Would that work? I'm also not sure where to find francophone texts. Ideas?

 

So, as discouraging as it might sound, in the end it just furthers the point that it is normal, your older children experiencing a strong preference for one language and culture and even, perhaps, a slight uneasiness with the other one, due to lack of that level of familiarity. The expression you used really is a good one: somewhat bilingual children. Not with two equally strong systems, but still far from typical language learners. You can accept it as a normal fact of life, conclude that they still know both languages and that that will be good enough... or you can go against the current and make them have two equal systems, which is hard to do without some specific life circumstances which would facilitate that.

It really is refreashing to know this. I think it can be hard to accept this in part because DH's family is very francophone and are quite concerned about our children not being truly fluent in French, and my family is very anglophone and dislikes DC speaking French at all. Our extended family situation is rather complicated. ;)

The thing is, despite that they tend to speak English, my older kids really like French and they do want to be fluent in it. English is just so much more dominant in their lives that speaking French seems somewhat unnatural. It seems like more schooling in French might help with that.

 

Another thing to note: your smaller kids are, well, smaller. Small kids equals small language needs, it is MUCH easier to be fully bilingual as a preschooler than as a teenager, as the amount of words, expressions, cultural propriety, advanced literacy as well as slang, simply doubles with time, and few people get there unless they live in such circumstances that would favor the equal development of both systems. It is not necessarily your DH's or your DDs' fault that your older children prefer English, it might as well be that that would have been the situation anyway at that age, with lopsised education, not enough time with the speakers of both languages, etc.

Very true. Although DS 2 and DS 6 are much more bilingual than their older siblings were at the same age I do wonder if their fluency will last. We did live in a fairly francophone community for a couple years when DS 6 and DD 7 were very young, but already DD 7 has become more of an English speaker than a French one. I'm thinking this is probably due to her having so much more schooling it English. Yes, I definitely need to start homeschooling bilingually. :)

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I just don't feel comfortable reading the great books in French. Although perhaps DD could read them in French and I could read them in English. Would that work? I'm also not sure where to find francophone texts. Ideas?

 

First of all, the great books differ from English to French. Some overlap, yes, but others do not. Montesquieu is usually not read by English speakers, but is read by French speakers, for example. So your list of books will not be what is found in WTM.

 

From what I've read of your situation, I would greatly recommend going with CNED, or EAD (my preference is CNED) especially with your older kids. Both are long distance classes

http://www.cned.fr (France)

http://www.ead.cfwb.be/ (Belgium)

 

EAD is very cheap. It used to be something like 80$ and you could take every single course you desire for the rest of your life. I don't know if it's still the case but I haven't heard otherwise.

 

With CNED I am very impressed with the French my son has been doing starting with grade 6. He's studying the great influences of French culture and literature. He's getting familiar with the great French thinkers, Rabelais, Voltaire, Montesquieu so far. He's studying le siècle des Lumières, stuff that you don't really hear about when you're using strictly English materials. I also recommend the CNED history classes. Math, not so much, and we haven't tried their sciences classes.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

BTW, we also homeschool bilingually. It is the only way to get advanced vocabulary in more than one language. Otherwise, the second language will never reach any level beyond standard conversation. I aim for 50/50.

[Aquinas Academy]

First of all, the great books differ from English to French. Some overlap, yes, but others do not. Montesquieu is usually not read by English speakers, but is read by French speakers, for example. So your list of books will not be what is found in WTM.

I was thinking more about DD reading say, The Iliad, in French and I reading it in English. Not that I'm sure her French is quite at that level. Do you have a list of great books that French speakers read?

 

With CNED I am very impressed with the French my son has been doing starting with grade 6. He's studying the great influences of French culture and literature. He's getting familiar with the great French thinkers, Rabelais, Voltaire, Montesquieu so far. He's studying le siècle des Lumières, stuff that you don't really hear about when you're using strictly English materials. I also recommend the CNED history classes. Math, not so much, and we haven't tried their sciences classes.

I've just spent the whole evening looking at CNED and I think I might be starting to figure it out. :tongue_smilie:So, let me see if I have this right. There are two parts to CNED, Atout CNED and Académie en ligne. Atout is the distance education option that you mentioned. At the école level Atout only offers French, at higher levels there are more courses available (I can't seem to find history :001_huh:). Académie en ligne is free. It provides a variety of courses for all levels. Is this right?

I really need to get off the computer now. :auto:

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I was thinking more about DD reading say, The Iliad, in French and I reading it in English. Not that I'm sure her French is quite at that level. Do you have a list of great books that French speakers read?

 

In some cases, names are changed from one language to another, making discussions difficult if you don't read the same book. In the Iliad, it's not so much the case but something like Lord of the Rings it's a big thing!

There's one list of recommended books here

http://media.eduscol.education.fr/file/ecole/63/2/liste-litterature-c3-2004-ro_113632.pdf

but I wouldn't consider them as 'great books' in the WTM sense. For that, I'm still looking and we started WTM 8 years ago. Sigh.

 

I've just spent the whole evening looking at CNED and I think I might be starting to figure it out. :tongue_smilie:So, let me see if I have this right. There are two parts to CNED, Atout CNED and Académie en ligne. ...

You've missed the main part! Which, I have to say, is very easy to do with their &*^&* website...

 

CNED also has a long distance education section, where you receive books by snail mail, and send in homeworks every 2 or 3 weeks for corrections by a certified teacher in France. This is a paying option though. The CNED books are indeed online at Académie en Ligne, so you can have a look to evaluate your kids' levels.

 

Here's an example:

3rd grade approximately

 

To get to those PDF files, you have to use "pour aller plus loin". Select a level, select a subject, then select any chapter. You'll see "1 - Je retiens > 2 - Je m’entraîne > 3 - Pour aller plus loin"

Edited May 15, 2011 by CleoQc

[Aquinas Academy]

In some cases, names are changed from one language to another, making discussions difficult if you don't read the same book. In the Iliad, it's not so much the case but something like Lord of the Rings it's a big thing!

There's one list of recommended books here

http://media.eduscol.education.fr/file/ecole/63/2/liste-litterature-c3-2004-ro_113632.pdf

but I wouldn't consider them as 'great books' in the WTM sense. For that, I'm still looking and we started WTM 8 years ago. Sigh.

The name changes would definitely make things difficult.Thanks for the link! If you ever find a WTM style list, let me know. :)

 

You've missed the main part! Which, I have to say, is very easy to do with their &*^&* website...

 

CNED also has a long distance education section, where you receive books by snail mail, and send in homeworks every 2 or 3 weeks for corrections by a certified teacher in France. This is a paying option though. The CNED books are indeed online at Académie en Ligne, so you can have a look to evaluate your kids' levels.

 

 

:banghead: I just seem to keep going round in circles on the website. But, I've found the section you're talking about! :D I'm really impressed with the number of foreign language classes they offer. I'll get my kids to try out the various levels at Académie en Ligne before signing up for distance education.

I have one last question (for now :tongue_smilie:). You mentioned that the CNED math courses were not that good. Do you have any French math textbooks that you recommend?

 

Thank you so much Cleo! You've been a huge help.

[regentrude]

I was thinking more about DD reading say, The Iliad, in French and I reading it in English. Not that I'm sure her French is quite at that level. Do you have a list of great books that French speakers read?

 

 

The way we deal with great literature is to read any book in its original language if we can (for us, this means anything originally German will be read in German), but anything we must read in translation in the stronger language, which for my kids ins English. I believe reading Homeric epics is challenging enough without throwing in extra language issues.

[Aquinas Academy]

The way we deal with great literature is to read any book in its original language if we can (for us, this means anything originally German will be read in German), but anything we must read in translation in the stronger language, which for my kids ins English. I believe reading Homeric epics is challenging enough without throwing in extra language issues.

Yes, you are probably right that Homer (and others) would be too hard in French. I do plan on having DD read French literature in French.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

 

:banghead: I just seem to keep going round in circles on the website.

 

Yes. it is very French.. Sigh.. if you want any useful information you have to give them some info about you.

Go here, choose your level, maternelle = kindergarten, CM2 = 5th or 6th grade (5th by age, 6th by level), click on 'documentation gratuite', give them the info they want, and you'll have access to the real stuff.

 

I have one last question (for now :tongue_smilie:). You mentioned that the CNED math courses were not that good. Do you have any French math textbooks that you recommend?

 

Yes! Défi-Maths! which I consider superior to Singapore Math! On top of that, they have a version that's free! One cannot ask for more, right?

http://defimath.ca/lexique.html

The ebooks are available online. (It used to be that we needed to request them by email.)

[Aquinas Academy]

Yes! Défi-Maths! which I consider superior to Singapore Math! On top of that, they have a version that's free! One cannot ask for more, right?

http://defimath.ca/lexique.html

The ebooks are available online. (It used to be that we needed to request them by email.)

Thanks! It looks really good. And I'm a big fan of all things free. :D

[Joan in GE]

For that, I'm still looking and we started WTM 8 years ago.

 

Have you looked at the French book list for the francophone Swiss maturite?

 

I cannot say that I would consider all the books they chose for the English part of their exam to fall under the title "Great Books" though, so it will be interesting to see what you think of their French list.

 

Joan

[Joan in GE]

Any recommendations of what would be good programmes? :)

 

Do you use the same grammar terminology in Canada as they do in France?

 

You could use the typical French school books by publishers such as BELIN, Hatier, or Hachette. They're basically following the same national program as CNED, each publisher just has slightly different styles of presentation, choice of art and literature works, etc.

 

Our French tutor was using BELIN. Her preference over all the others.

 

Francais (BELIN)

 

Grammaire (BELIN) which also includes orthographe, vocab, etc.

 

Teacher

 

Recently the Swiss French speakers produced the Swiss version of these French books by Hatier, so now we're using them since my dd will be tested accordingly. (The Swiss use different grammar terminology and have a somewhat different order of topics). Here are the original French versions.

 

L'atelier du langage 5e that's 7th grade grammar, orthographe, etc

 

Francais: Livre unique that's literature

 

I tend to get the teacher's manual even for the tutor as every minute that she spends thinking of the answer is a minute that she doesn't have to talk to my daughter - and the sum of those minutes is much more expensive than the teacher's manual.

 

L'atelier professeur 5e prof

 

Francais: Livre unique prof

 

Joan

[Ester Maria]

ESABAC (combined Italian and French "maturita' and Bac" in Italy which counts for both and is adopted by several schools with advanced French / bilingual program) pretty much establishes the following list:

 

 

Chrétien de Troyes, romanzi (a scelta)

Ronsard, Odes et Sonnets

Du Bellay, Les Antiquités de Rome

Louise Labbé, Sonnets (a scelta)

Corneille, Théâtre (a scelta)

Racine, Théâtre (a scelta)

Moliere, Théâtre (a scelta)

La Fontaine, Les Fables

 

Pascal,

Les Pensées

Madame de Lafayette, La Princesse de Cleves

Beaumarchais,

le Mariage de Figaro

Les Philosophes des Lumières : Montesquieu, Diderot, Voltaire, Rousseau (a scelta)

Rousseau,

La nouvelle Héloise, les Ręveries du Promeneur solitaire, les Confessions

Chateaubriand, René, Les Mémoires d’outre-tombe

Lamartine, Poésies (a scelta)

Musset, Poésies (a scelta)

Hugo, Poésies (a scelta)

Stendhal, le Rouge et le Noir, la Chartreuse de Parme

Zola,

les Rougon-Macquart (a scelta)

Flaubert, Madame Bovary, Les trois contes

Maupassant,

Nouvelles (a scelta)

Balzac, La Comédie humaine (a scelta)

Baudelaire(a scelta)

Verlaine (a scelta)

Rimbaud (a scelta)

 

+ from the other document:

Poesia

Apollinaire

Aragon

Eluard

Prévert

Ponge

Teatro

Ionesco, Beckett

Sartre

Camus

Prosa

Proust

Camus

Perec, Queneau

Yourcenar, Mémoires d’Hadrien

Tournier

 

It would not all copy and paste nicely the way it should, but that would roughly be what they do, so it might help you to have some perspective; on the other hand, I am not sure how much "a scelta" really means free choice here, we also had those written in our syllabi, but things were still quite "established" (Balzac was Pere Goriot and/or Eugene Grandet, Racine was Phaedre and Berenice, Maupassant it was very clear which stories, etc.), but then again, ESABAC did not exist back then :D, it only became an option a few years ago.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Have you looked at the French book list for the francophone Swiss maturite?

 

I cannot say that I would consider all the books they chose for the English part of their exam to fall under the title "Great Books" though, so it will be interesting to see what you think of their French list.

 

Joan

 

Wow, that's a pretty good list actually! I know most of the names, have studied some of them too as a teen

 

And Ester Maria, your list also hits on the big names (there are duplicates up to a point, but not entirely)

Edited May 16, 2011 by CleoQc

[masterpiece]

My situation is a bit different, as my kids have a decent level of fluency in three languages. However, my needs are similar to yours, in that we each need to continually practice and develop in each of our respective languages.

 

I was thinking more about DD reading say, The Iliad, in French and I reading it in English. Not that I'm sure her French is quite at that level. Do you have a list of great books that French speakers read? :auto:

 

I've been pleasantly surprised to find the same children's versions that are recommended in Well-Trained Mind translated into the other two languages that we speak. Since I live in Europe and have access to a large city's network of libraries, I can generally get, say, the "Black Ships Before Troy" version of the Iliad in both languages. So I choose one of them for each book and we rotate languages, so maybe we catch the Iliad in one language, the Odyssey in another, and perhaps the Aeneid in English (the English versions are the hardest for me to get hold of). I try to make sure that they're reading, writing, speaking in all three on a regular basis and in as great a variety of subjects as possible (notice the word TRY :D). If you could find French versions of books you've already read in English, it wouldn't be nearly as great an effort for you to know what's going on.

 

For your older kids, you might need to start them at levels which would be too easy for them in English. This is difficult because if it comes across as being too infantile they might not like it even if it's at an appropriate reading level for them. However, I would imagine that it wouldn't take them too long to be able to jump levels.

 

I, too, would stay away from materials made for foreign language study, as they won't get your kids up to level and they'll approach the language in a way that isn't useful for them. Use materials that French-speaking kids use as much as you possibly can.

 

Hope this helps!

L

[Ester Maria]

And Ester Maria, your list also hits on the big names (there are duplicates up to a point, but not entirely)

My problem with that list, though, is that it is too vague... they mostly write the author's name and then "a scelta" or "choix de textes", which can frankly mean everything from anything to close-to-everything. Though I suppose this new EsaBac thing will turn into something like Bac, in that they issue the specific list for the exam in advance, and leave the rest on general guidelines. I like the Swiss list much better, though that looks VERY comprehensive for high school to me. Even a bit overboard, maybe, unless it is a TL?

 

But then again, their Italian list specifies how many cantos, etc.

[Nan in Mass]

Can you read French? We are diong a very poor version of what your other posters are doing (about like the let-them-eat-cake sort of cake compared to a rich fruitcake), but I think that if you don't read French yourself, you may have trouble with this. I don't speak French well at all and found that a stumbling block when we tried doing French curriculum, but listening to how Cleo has dealt with the situation was helpful. She has her children read and write in their second language but uses their first language for any discussions. Doing this lets me use a French history book with my son despite my own French being far from fluent. There is another tip I want to offer. Your children sound like they are bilingual enough that it won't apply, but just in case... My son's French is definately not good enough to cope with grade-level curriculum. We have to use middle school materials in high school and even that is a bit of a stretch at times, so what I have done is pick the lowest priority subject and work on that in French. My son is headed for engineering, so for us, that is history. The plan is to have him do the history/geography books meant for grades 5-8 in grades 9-12, one a year. He is also reading a Western Civilization book meant for college and written in English, 1/4 each year, just reading, to suppliment, and doing great books, which gives him some more primary sources, and he travels (more geography). I will count it as a year of history and a year of geography. Picking the lowest priority subject means that working in a different language at a lower level works out ok. It isn't perfect, but it is better than nothing.

-Nan

[Joan in GE]

Here are some shorter French literature lists for "passerelle" type exams...

 

EPFL admissions exam scroll to p 10-11 for French lit

 

French as a second language list for Germans here p 5-6

 

Passerelle French list p1-3 (it looks the same as the one for German speakers but I haven't examined it too closely)

 

Ester Maria - had you seen the Swiss list of just Italian works for speakers of Italian as a second language? (the one you linked seemed to have a lot of German authors)

 

Joan

[Aquinas Academy]

Do you use the same grammar terminology in Canada as they do in France?

 

I must admit that I have no idea whether the terminology is the same or not. Thank you for the links! I'll definitely take a look.

 

I've been pleasantly surprised to find the same children's versions that are recommended in Well-Trained Mind translated into the other two languages that we speak. Since I live in Europe and have access to a large city's network of libraries, I can generally get, say, the "Black Ships Before Troy" version of the Iliad in both languages. So I choose one of them for each book and we rotate languages, so maybe we catch the Iliad in one language, the Odyssey in another, and perhaps the Aeneid in English (the English versions are the hardest for me to get hold of). I try to make sure that they're reading, writing, speaking in all three on a regular basis and in as great a variety of subjects as possible (notice the word TRY :D). If you could find French versions of books you've already read in English, it wouldn't be nearly as great an effort for you to know what's going on.

 

That's a great idea. Our library has a decent selection of French books that we make good use of. It was much harder when we lived in the US and few libraries had French books.

 

Can you read French? We are diong a very poor version of what your other posters are doing (about like the let-them-eat-cake sort of cake compared to a rich fruitcake), but I think that if you don't read French yourself, you may have trouble with this. I don't speak French well at all and found that a stumbling block when we tried doing French curriculum, but listening to how Cleo has dealt with the situation was helpful. She has her children read and write in their second language but uses their first language for any discussions. Doing this lets me use a French history book with my son despite my own French being far from fluent. There is another tip I want to offer. Your children sound like they are bilingual enough that it won't apply, but just in case... My son's French is definately not good enough to cope with grade-level curriculum. We have to use middle school materials in high school and even that is a bit of a stretch at times, so what I have done is pick the lowest priority subject and work on that in French. My son is headed for engineering, so for us, that is history. The plan is to have him do the history/geography books meant for grades 5-8 in grades 9-12, one a year. He is also reading a Western Civilization book meant for college and written in English, 1/4 each year, just reading, to suppliment, and doing great books, which gives him some more primary sources, and he travels (more geography). I will count it as a year of history and a year of geography. Picking the lowest priority subject means that working in a different language at a lower level works out ok. It isn't perfect, but it is better than nothing.

-Nan

It's so great to hear from people in similar situations! Thanks for telling me about what you do. Yes, I can read French, and I speak reasonably well. I don't feel very confident correcting my children's French though.

[MorganClassicalPrep]

Been following this thread with some interest... and I have a question. :D

 

For those of you who school bilingually, do you find that the concepts transfer over? For example, since it was brought up in this thread, if you do math in French, how difficult is it to do math in English?

What about other subjects like science, history, etc.

 

Eventually I'd like to be able to move towards teaching a few subjects in French (not for awhile now- DD is nowhere near grade level in French for now!).

[regentrude]

For those of you who school bilingually, do you find that the concepts transfer over? For example, since it was brought up in this thread, if you do math in French, how difficult is it to do math in English?

What about other subjects like science, history, etc.

.

 

For us, science and math are VERY hard to do in German, because as soon as DH and I talk about science or math, we inadvertently switch into English because in our jobs, we spend our days talking about science and math in English, LOL.(We teach at an American university). Despite having gone to school and university in German and of course knowing all the terms.

We try.

OTOH, I did not know any mathematical and few scientific terms in English when I came here (it was difficult to start teaching because I knew the concepts but not the proper words)- and it took hardly any time at all to learn these. So, I am not really concerned.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

For those of you who school bilingually, do you find that the concepts transfer over? For example, since it was brought up in this thread, if you do math in French, how difficult is it to do math in English?

What about other subjects like science, history, etc.

 

 

The kids transfer knowledge readily. Knowledge is knowledge, the language is just the top layer. Since we're adamant that our kids be French first, we want their identity to be French, every single subject they read in English gets discussed in French. Paperwork is done in the same language as the primary material, but oral discussion is always in French. I have never spoken to my kids in English. I've done read-alouds in English, but never conversation.

However I am trying to do a bit of conversation in Spanish with them, because they have nowhere else to hear it.

[Nan in Mass]

We've done the history and geography in French now for two years. The concepts (which aren't particularly new anyway, since the material is meant for a younger child) definately cross over. I suspect that there will be a few places in geography where the vocabulary that occurs to him first will be in French because I've noticed that despite our discussing the material in English, he has begun to use a few French words in place of the English concept, especially for the words that he learned in context. An example is taux. We've never actually looked it up in the dictionary, but it seems to be about like "rate" in English, as in birth rate. I use the English word, but he doesn't. I'm not worried about it at all because I think he will be able to understand any English terms (as I said, the material is pretty simple) and if he has ever to use them, I think he will pick them up quickly. I would be a bit more worried about high level math or science, but even then, not very much.

 

-Nan

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I use the English word, but he doesn't.

 

-Nan

 

That's actually pretty cool! And yes it means rate. I will also worry less that my kids use some English words first, when they learn it first. My DD is almost entirely English for math, but French for numbers. It makes for weird conversations: Quatre tiers est une improper fraction. (4/3 is an ...)

[Nan in Mass]

That reminds me - I keep meaning to ask you how you read decimal points in French. When we are reading aloud and we come across "3,6 million", what do we say? And how about 2001?

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

we come across "3,6 million", what do we say? And how about 2001?

 

you can either say '3 millions 6 cent milles' or "3 virgule 6 millions" Note the use of comma instead of period.

 

As for the year, it's "deux mille un" And for a year like 1965, we would never say dix-neuf cent soixante cinq, but always mille neuf cent soixante cinq

On the other hand, locally, I do hear dix-neuf cent soixante cinq, but I think that's due to Quebec being exposed to the English language so much. I never heard that when I was in school.

[Nan in Mass]

Thank you!

[Ester Maria]

Ester Maria - had you seen the Swiss list of just Italian works for speakers of Italian as a second language? (the one you linked seemed to have a lot of German authors)

I actually think that I linked the list for Italian speakers (i.e. Italian as first language, and other languages were options for second national language and additional foreign languages), because I had been searching for it in Italian. Yes, this one is different - I like it too, though. :D The requirements are loose so there is much freedom, but the criteria are still very good.

For those of you who school bilingually, do you find that the concepts transfer over? For example, since it was brought up in this thread, if you do math in French, how difficult is it to do math in English?

What about other subjects like science, history, etc.

Oh, definitely! There is no need to literally do "double" school, though you need to expose children to materials in both languages for the sake of knowing both sets of terms. The only things which partially differ, if you were to homeschool fully bilingually, are "national" stuff, such as History and Geography, where you would have to take care that each is done in accordance with how it is done in each school system, so may count with some 30% more things to do in those areas. The only area where the content pretty much doubles is language and literature, if you do each language in accordance with its own tradition. There is some "world literature" overlap, but you still end up with two reading lists rather than one because of the greater national literature content, or specific focus put on some world literature in one tradition which are not so emphasized in the other one, etc.

 

In the end, if you homeschool in two languages, you end up having one to two areas more, some "enrichment" in other areas, and you often combine (or rotate) materials in both languages, but it is definitely NOT 200% of work, as people sometimes think, in fact not even CLOSE to that, as concepts do transfer.

[Guest Trillium7]

Hello: By accident, I ran across some engaging workbooks, targeted to French children (but also good for english children, still probably best used when a parent speaks french, which I do). Search www.amazon.ca using author's name: Diane Boileau. The publisher is Trecarre... Mine are entitled "Les Aventures de Mollo" with a ladybug on the front, but the newer editions are a crocodile I think .... Less than $10 each, and really solid good stuff. Phonics, spelling, some grammar, reading/writing.

 

For us, I am no longer going to bother with French curricula (and have tried several addressed to non-French speakers) that are not used in French schools. 1) Also, I truly believe in the Gouin approach (pls. read of this in Charlotte Mason's works), where the VERB is the key, and learning to engage children using various verb tenses with french dialogues set to action, Ex/ talk through a process - how do you open a door, step by step, and what happens. 2) I dug out ancient "Voix et Images" picture books and some old recordings of the dialogues that went with them. We listen and repeat - no english explanation, figure it out by looking at pictures. 3) My fave resource right now cost me 25 cents. No kidding. "French Through Pictures" by I.A. Richards, M.H. Ilsley and C Gibson 1950 date of publication!! Have it in Spanish also, great to do a few pages in the evening as a family. 4) Play "Simon Dit" with your child. Mine lights up and giggles and really engages when we use French in PLAY!!

 

I have tried L'Art de Lire this year, but found it rather... easy. I won't continue with it. Our Latin language curriculum was far more challenging, and I really think French is easier to learn than Latin, surely? Anyway, those are my thoughts. Trillium7

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Hello: By accident, I ran across some engaging workbooks, targeted to French children (but also good for english children, still probably best used when a parent speaks french, which I do). Search www.amazon.ca using author's name: Diane Boileau. The publisher is Trecarre... Mine are entitled "Les Aventures de Mollo" with a ladybug on the front, but the newer editions are a crocodile I think .... Less than $10 each, and really solid good stuff. Phonics, spelling, some grammar, reading/writing.

 

 

Welcome Trillium7.

We've used those books before. I stopped after a while. I found them unsastisfactory in the long term. They're good books though.

[Chez J]

Do you use the same grammar terminology in Canada as they do in France?

 

You could use the typical French school books by publishers such as BELIN, Hatier, or Hachette. They're basically following the same national program as CNED, each publisher just has slightly different styles of presentation, choice of art and literature works, etc.

 

Our French tutor was using BELIN. Her preference over all the others.

 

Francais (BELIN)

 

Grammaire (BELIN) which also includes orthographe, vocab, etc.

 

Teacher

 

Recently the Swiss French speakers produced the Swiss version of these French books by Hatier, so now we're using them since my dd will be tested accordingly. (The Swiss use different grammar terminology and have a somewhat different order of topics). Here are the original French versions.

 

L'atelier du langage 5e that's 7th grade grammar, orthographe, etc

 

Francais: Livre unique that's literature

 

I tend to get the teacher's manual even for the tutor as every minute that she spends thinking of the answer is a minute that she doesn't have to talk to my daughter - and the sum of those minutes is much more expensive than the teacher's manual.

 

L'atelier professeur 5e prof

 

Francais: Livre unique prof

 

Joan

 

Haven't read all the replies yet.

 

This year, as many here may remember, we changed our whole curriculum plan due to finances. We just could no longer afford the tutor. And, I was tired of the French CNED academic calendar not matching my calendar.

 

Our tutor, bless her, brought to us when she came to visit, a variety of the programs above. We sampled a lot of them. I just asked my daughter what she liked best. She says Hachette OrthoCollege. HOWEVER! You have to get the answers from a certified teacher in France. At least, that's what I had to do. Our tutor got it for us.

 

The other two we used the most were: L'atelier du langage and Francais Pour Les Nuls. :D

 

We used the dictee.fr site Cleo recommended and did conjugaisons as suggested by Joan. Thanks ladies!

 

Lastly, I only buy movies that have a French track. So, DD also listens to movies in French. And, I have lots of books in French for her to read. There are some that have study guides to go with them, which is even better.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

So, you both recommend using French texts instead of English-French texts. Do any French speakers have recommendations about what texts I should use?

 

It really is refreashing to know this. I think it can be hard to accept this in part because DH's family is very francophone and are quite concerned about our children not being truly fluent in French, and my family is very anglophone and dislikes DC speaking French at all. Our extended family situation is rather complicated. ;)

 

 

Have you considered asking your extended family for help in tracking down good texts?

 

When we lived in Germany, I was able to find wonderful books at local flea markets and book bazaars. It didn't matter that they were older or used, because we were talking about children's books, comic books and old text books.

 

You might find that you could give your family a list of books that you're looking for or subjects that you are studying and ask them to see what they can find for you. Don't overlook audio books on cassette or CD. We were also able to find some German computer programs, which not being formatted like DVDs were easier to work with than DVDs. We found some sets of homework help type programs available in German.

[Matthew.1]

This is a really good topic and information!

 

Thank you!

Keep posting more!:001_smile: