8th grade: Art of Argument followed by Argument Builder- Do these work well together?

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Thank you, everyone, who has helped me with logic! I'm feeling better about CAP books. I am trying to come to a conclusion. Would you give me your opinion about this idea?:

 

Would this work for 8th grade?

 

Art of Argument in 1st semester/ Argument Builder in 2nd semester.

 

 

I will need to keep logic to 30 minutes about 3 times/week. Is this enough time to get both of these books done? We would mostly do them orally, and a 6th grader might join us. If there isn't enough time for both books, I would just do AoA.

 

Why do some skip Argument Builder and go right to Discovery of Deduction after Art of Argument? I could do AoA followed by DoD, but on CAP's web site they say AB is the perfect companion to AoA. It also seems to be the stepping stone I am looking for that links fallacies to rhetoric.

 

I'm leaning toward either Discovery of Deduction or A Rulebook for Argument for 9th.

 

Thanks so much!

[tjarnold]

Looking forward to hearing the answers to this question. I kept asking it myself as I stood in front of the CAP booth in Cincinnati this past weekend.

 

Tiffany

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Hoping to hear from someone who has used both of these or can offer helpful information.....

Anyone?

[Aquinas Academy]

Seems like a good plan to me.

We do:

6th grade -- AoA

7th grade -- AB

8th grade -- DoD

 

I think having AB follow AoA works really well. 30 min 3 times/week seems like it would be enough time for an 8th grader to do both. If your 6th grader joins in you may have to go a bit slower. We spend about 1 hour per week working on AoA/AB.

 

Sorry I can't be of more help. If you have any more questions feel free to ask.

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Seems like a good plan to me.

We do:

6th grade -- AoA

7th grade -- AB

8th grade -- DoD

 

I think having AB follow AoA works really well. 30 min 3 times/week seems like it would be enough time for an 8th grader to do both. If your 6th grader joins in you may have to go a bit slower. We spend about 1 hour per week working on AoA/AB.

 

Sorry I can't be of more help. If you have any more questions feel free to ask.

 

Janette,

Thank you so much! I like the plan you have to get through these logic books.

 

One more question.... It sounds like we *could* get through both AoA and AB next year. My only concern is that we would be moving at such a quick pace that we'd only skim the surface or feel the pressure to finish before the end of the year. This plan might be too ambitious. Certainly just working through one book we could finish at a more relaxed pace and enjoy it. Thoughts???

 

A rep from CAP seemed to think we could do both. I think I'll get AoA for 1st semester and try to get through with it by Christmas. If our schedule works out and we have the time, I can always buy AB.

 

Again, thank you so much for your help!

[Teacher Mom]

Well, I can only tell you what I did. It has taken me a solid year to get through each of the books. We do logic twice weekly, Tuesday and Thursday. We did Art of Argument in 6th grade, Argument Builder this year, and will do the other one (can't remember the name) next year.

 

Why does it take us so long? Well, Argument Builder involves paragraph and essay writing and sometimes you have to read websites before you can write. I find that my daughter has to think and discuss some of the concepts first, especially in the Common Topic of Relationship. She also takes tests, which I write, at the end of every common topic. We get off track - we watched 12 Angry Men three times when we were studying the four idols.

 

Art of Argument went faster for us than Argument Builder. First, they already had the tests planned out. Second, it is so easy to find the fallacies in magazines, which we have a lot of in this house. Third, picking apart an argument is a lot easier than building one.:D It still took a year, but like I wrote, we get off track sometimes.

 

I think you will have to be disciplined to cover both books in one year. Hoped this helped.

[Aquinas Academy]

One more question.... It sounds like we *could* get through both AoA and AB next year. My only concern is that we would be moving at such a quick pace that we'd only skim the surface or feel the pressure to finish before the end of the year. This plan might be too ambitious. Certainly just working through one book we could finish at a more relaxed pace and enjoy it. Thoughts???

QUOTE]

 

I definitely like taking a year to work on each book. We have lots of disucssions and go down rabbit trails (we've watched Twelve Angry Men a lot too :)). I wouldn't want to do both AoA and AB in one year, but I do think it's possible, especially with an 8th grader.

Just buying AoA to start sounds like a good plan.

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Well, I can only tell you what I did. It has taken me a solid year to get through each of the books. We do logic twice weekly, Tuesday and Thursday. We did Art of Argument in 6th grade, Argument Builder this year, and will do the other one (can't remember the name) next year.

 

 

 

Why does it take us so long? Well, Argument Builder involves paragraph and essay writing and sometimes you have to read websites before you can write. I find that my daughter has to think and discuss some of the concepts first, especially in the Common Topic of Relationship. She also takes tests, which I write, at the end of every common topic. We get off track - we watched 12 Angry Men three times when we were studying the four idols.

 

Art of Argument went faster for us than Argument Builder. First, they already had the tests planned out. Second, it is so easy to find the fallacies in magazines, which we have a lot of in this house. Third, picking apart an argument is a lot easier than building one.:D It still took a year, but like I wrote, we get off track sometimes.

 

I think you will have to be disciplined to cover both books in one year. Hoped this helped.

 

 

I definitely like taking a year to work on each book. We have lots of disucssions and go down rabbit trails (we've watched Twelve Angry Men a lot too :)). I wouldn't want to do both AoA and AB in one year, but I do think it's possible, especially with an 8th grader.

Just buying AoA to start sounds like a good plan.

 

TeacherMom and Janette, thank you. I will definitely only buy AoA.

 

To be honest, because dd will have a full 8th grade year, my intentions have only been to do logic orally. (I do not want to over-budget our time. ) Working orally may be ok for AoA, but would it be ok when we do AB?

 

If a student has writing assignments in a composition class, (specifically MFW high school) I would consider that to be the major writing grade. I would hope writing in other subjects (like logic) would be minor in comparison.

 

For an 8th grader who works through AoA for the whole year would she go into AB in 9th grade or go on to DoD in 9th? I love the way AB is a logic-to-rhetoric text, but would our time be better spent moving into formal logic?

 

I would really rather move onto A Rulebook for Argument if AoA would give us the background we would need.

[elegantlion]

We finished AoA this year. My plan is to do DoD next year(8th), as formal logic. I haven't decided if we will do AB, I'd like to, but I'm not sure which direction we will go. We would treat Argument Builder more as a rhetoric/writing course.

[Sweet Home Alabama]

We finished AoA this year. My plan is to do DoD next year(8th), as formal logic. I haven't decided if we will do AB, I'd like to, but I'm not sure which direction we will go. We would treat Argument Builder more as a rhetoric/writing course.

 

 

Paula,

On CAP's website, AB is described as the companion book to AoA. I don't understand why so many skip AB and go right to DoD. (Or some work througth AoA, DoD, and then AB.)

 

AB looks wonderful, and it links logic with rhetoric. AoA followed by AB seems like such a "perfect" combination that makes a student ready for the formal DoD.

 

Do you have any suggestions why AB is either skipped or done after DoD?

[Aquinas Academy]

TeacherMom and Janette, thank you. I will definitely only buy AoA.

 

To be honest, because dd will have a full 8th grade year, my intentions have only been to do logic orally. (I do not want to over-budget our time. ) Working orally may be ok for AoA, but would it be ok when we do AB?

 

If a student has writing assignments in a composition class, (specifically MFW high school) I would consider that to be the major writing grade. I would hope writing in other subjects (like logic) would be minor in comparison.

 

 

We do AoA orally. With AB I add a bit more writing, but we still do much of it orally. Classical Writing is our main focus for writing.

 

For an 8th grader who works through AoA for the whole year would she go into AB in 9th grade or go on to DoD in 9th? I love the way AB is a logic-to-rhetoric text, but would our time be better spent moving into formal logic?

 

I would really rather move onto A Rulebook for Argument if AoA would give us the background we would need.

I think studying formal logic would be useful before going onto A Rulebook for Argument. Doing DoD in 9th and then the rulebook in 10th seems like a reasonable plan to me.

[Sweet Home Alabama]

We do AoA orally. With AB I add a bit more writing, but we still do much of it orally. Classical Writing is our main focus for writing.

 

I think studying formal logic would be useful before going onto A Rulebook for Argument. Doing DoD in 9th and then the rulebook in 10th seems like a reasonable plan to me.

 

This is so helpful, Janette.

 

So, if you were to delete one book from the line-up, it would be AB. I've seen instances where others who use CAP books also skip over AB. I guess that might indicate that it is more important to get on with the formal logic. I just love how AB is that "link" between logic and rhetoric. How bad would it be to do AB in 9th, Dod in 10th, then Rulebook in 11th? I realize many are doing a harder logic more on the lines of Traditional Logic II by that time. Thoughts???

 

(I'm sure all this will work itself out over time, but it helps to have an idea of what I might want to do in the future.)

 

Well, I feel much more at ease about next year anyway. I can do AoA for 8th and decide what to do in 9th in a few more months.

 

Thanks VERY much for your help.

[elegantlion]

Paula,

On CAP's website, AB is described as the companion book to AoA. I don't understand why so many skip AB and go right to DoD. (Or some work througth AoA, DoD, and then AB.)

 

AB looks wonderful, and it links logic with rhetoric. AoA followed by AB seems like such a "perfect" combination that makes a student ready for the formal DoD.

 

Do you have any suggestions why AB is either skipped or done after DoD?

 

One reason is because DoD is a recent publication, within the last year, I believe. Before that CAP didn't have a formal logic program. AoA and AB have been around longer.

 

One reason we are doing DoD first is because my son's writing skills lag behind his critical thinking skills. If we use AB it will be as an introductory rhetoric course, he's not quite ready for that amount of writing. I've also only seen samples of AB, and read discussions here. I've not seen it IRL.

 

Another reason we are opting to do AoA, DoD, and then AB, is the way I want to format our future studies. I want to branch our logic studies off in two directions. Along with formal logic next year we will do an introduction to philosophy. The other branch will take us into rhetoric. My son will study more philosophy in years to come.

[Lostinabook]

We do AoA orally. With AB I add a bit more writing, but we still do much of it orally. Classical Writing is our main focus for writing.

 

Do you just use the teacher's guide then or do you get the student book as well?

[Sweet Home Alabama]

One reason is because DoD is a recent publication, within the last year, I believe. Before that CAP didn't have a formal logic program. AoA and AB have been around longer.

 

One reason we are doing DoD first is because my son's writing skills lag behind his critical thinking skills. If we use AB it will be as an introductory rhetoric course, he's not quite ready for that amount of writing. I've also only seen samples of AB, and read discussions here. I've not seen it IRL.

 

Another reason we are opting to do AoA, DoD, and then AB, is the way I want to format our future studies. I want to branch our logic studies off in two directions. Along with formal logic next year we will do an introduction to philosophy. The other branch will take us into rhetoric. My son will study more philosophy in years to come.

 

Thank you, Paula!

I've also asked CAP the same question. I'm eager to hear their reply.

 

I am content at this point to do AoA in 8th and leave the others for high school..... not sure what order, but I like CAP products and SWB's logic sequence.

[Teacher Mom]

I couldn't do AB without the writing. I am not a classical home educator so I can't really give my opinion on how this is more rhetoric versus logic:lol: But I can tell you that by using AB as is (except adding tests), my dd writing has improved. She outlines her argument first and then writes a very succinct essay.

 

I guess I am weird but we have a writing class AND we write for each of our subjects that require it. Sometimes she has several short essays going at the same time. She is graded on what we are trying to achieve in each class. If it is a AB essay, I look to see how the format of her argument works as opposed to a writing class where I look to see how she used the language to achieve the goal of her essay.

 

I guess you could use AB orally if you had the student outline what he/she was going to say in an essay and then just listen to the argument. You would still have to allot time for thought processing so I don't know if that would save you much time.

[Sweet Home Alabama]

I couldn't do AB without the writing. I am not a classical home educator so I can't really give my opinion on how this is more rhetoric versus logic:lol: But I can tell you that by using AB as is (except adding tests), my dd writing has improved. She outlines her argument first and then writes a very succinct essay.

 

I guess I am weird but we have a writing class AND we write for each of our subjects that require it. Sometimes she has several short essays going at the same time. She is graded on what we are trying to achieve in each class. If it is a AB essay, I look to see how the format of her argument works as opposed to a writing class where I look to see how she used the language to achieve the goal of her essay.

 

I guess you could use AB orally if you had the student outline what he/she was going to say in an essay and then just listen to the argument. You would still have to allot time for thought processing so I don't know if that would save you much time.

 

 

TeacherMom, this is so awesome to read. Given your comments, I can see why actually doing AB would be better than doing it orally.

 

It is confusing that CAP describes AB as a companion book to AoA if it truly is better to use it after formal logic. This is the point I've had trouble understanding.

 

If AB is done in high school, is it enough for a high school credit? What about DoD? High school credits are very new to me.... I've got to figure out a logic sequence for high school and how to give credit.

[Teacher Mom]

Heck, I'm trying to figure out the credit hour thing too. I would say that AB is a 1/2 credit because we only do it on Tuesdays and Thursdays but I don't really know. 36 weeks x 2 hours a week =72 hours + some outside work /movie can be 75-80 hours. It depends on what you use as a Carnegie unit (120 hrs vs 150hrs vs 180 hrs). We are using it in 7th grade so I've not bothered to track the time.

 

As for DoD, I can't help you. I plan on using it next year but I have not looked at it yet. I'm thinking that it will be a 1/2 credit because it has to go into the Logic Tusesday/ Thursday line up.

[Aquinas Academy]

This is so helpful, Janette.

So, if you were to delete one book from the line-up, it would be AB. I've seen instances where others who use CAP books also skip over AB. I guess that might indicate that it is more important to get on with the formal logic. I just love how AB is that "link" between logic and rhetoric. How bad would it be to do AB in 9th, Dod in 10th, then Rulebook in 11th? I realize many are doing a harder logic more on the lines of Traditional Logic II by that time. Thoughts???

QUOTE]

Yes, if there was one book I was going to skip it would be AB. In my case I feel that my kids have benefited from AB, but they will also get lots of rhetoric practice using Classical Writing and Rulebook for Arugments.

The line-up you list is definitely possible; it all depends on what your goals are.

One thought, what about using AB and Rulebook together? You could do that in 10th (after DoD in 9th) and then follow it by more Rulebook in 10th along with Traditional Logic or something else. Just ideas; I don't know how well they'd work.

 

Okay, I really need to figure out why my quotes aren't working.

[Aquinas Academy]

Do you just use the teacher's guide then or do you get the student book as well?

Well, I bought the student book before realising it might not be entirely necessary. :001_smile: I don't want my kids writing in the book, so I really didn't need to buy it. We do use it on occasion when DD does AB on her own. Most of the time we do it together and use the teacher's book.

[Sweet Home Alabama]

This is so helpful, Janette.

So, if you were to delete one book from the line-up, it would be AB. I've seen instances where others who use CAP books also skip over AB. I guess that might indicate that it is more important to get on with the formal logic. I just love how AB is that "link" between logic and rhetoric. How bad would it be to do AB in 9th, Dod in 10th, then Rulebook in 11th? I realize many are doing a harder logic more on the lines of Traditional Logic II by that time. Thoughts???

QUOTE]

Yes, if there was one book I was going to skip it would be AB. In my case I feel that my kids have benefited from AB, but they will also get lots of rhetoric practice using Classical Writing and Rulebook for Arugments.

The line-up you list is definitely possible; it all depends on what your goals are.

One thought, what about using AB and Rulebook together? You could do that in 10th (after DoD in 9th) and then follow it by more Rulebook in 10th along with Traditional Logic or something else. Just ideas; I don't know how well they'd work.

 

Okay, I really need to figure out why my quotes aren't working.

 

 

Janette, I've thought of the same line-up:

8th AoA

9th DoD

10th AB/Rulebook

 

Honestly, I don't know after that. Traditional Logic MUST be valuable; so many on this board use it. However, when I look at it, I see a foreign language. I'm not sure I'm willing to do it. I haven't seen it personally. That could make a difference.

 

Until then, I like CAP books because they look doable and relevant to practical application. They look easier to implement than TL. They look like books I can actually use rather than struggle through. Call me lazy, but I have to choose curriculua for 3 kids in different grades with different learning styles at different developmental levels. I just have to choose programs that allow me to balance my time with my kids. I'm concerned TL would take more time than I'm willing to spend.

 

Maybe I'm wrong.... it's just the feeling I get when I read the samples on-line.

[Aquinas Academy]

 

Until then, I like CAP books because they look doable and relevant to practical application. They look easier to implement than TL. They look like books I can actually use rather than struggle through. Call me lazy, but I have to choose curriculua for 3 kids in different grades with different learning styles at different developmental levels. I just have to choose programs that allow me to balance my time with my kids. I'm concerned TL would take more time than I'm willing to spend.

 

Maybe I'm wrong.... it's just the feeling I get when I read the samples on-line.

 

I don't use TL either. You're welcome to join me in the lazy camp.:D

[elegantlion]

Yes, if there was one book I was going to skip it would be AB. In my case I feel that my kids have benefited from AB, but they will also get lots of rhetoric practice using Classical Writing and Rulebook for Arugments.

The line-up you list is definitely possible; it all depends on what your goals are.

One thought, what about using AB and Rulebook together? You could do that in 10th (after DoD in 9th) and then follow it by more Rulebook in 10th along with Traditional Logic or something else. Just ideas; I don't know how well they'd work.

 

Okay, I really need to figure out why my quotes aren't working.

 

I think your quotes look broken because you're deleting one of the brackets at the end of the quote.

 

Would you find AB and Rulebook for Arguments to be redundant? Or would they work well together. I'm trying to plan longterm. While I love CAP products I do have to think about budget.

 

 

 

Janette, I've thought of the same line-up:

8th AoA

9th DoD

10th AB/Rulebook

 

Honestly, I don't know after that. Traditional Logic MUST be valuable; so many on this board use it. However, when I look at it, I see a foreign language. I'm not sure I'm willing to do it. I haven't seen it personally. That could make a difference.

 

Until then, I like CAP books because they look doable and relevant to practical application. They look easier to implement than TL. They look like books I can actually use rather than struggle through. Call me lazy, but I have to choose curriculua for 3 kids in different grades with different learning styles at different developmental levels. I just have to choose programs that allow me to balance my time with my kids. I'm concerned TL would take more time than I'm willing to spend.

 

Maybe I'm wrong.... it's just the feeling I get when I read the samples on-line.

 

You wouldn't have to do Traditional Logic if you chose DoD. They are both formal logic. I haven't compared TOC to see what they cover, but I think it would be redundant. Since Dod is a newer product, there just isn't the track record yet.

 

I appreciate your questions, they're helping me plan as well.

[Lostinabook]

Well, I bought the student book before realising it might not be entirely necessary. :001_smile: I don't want my kids writing in the book, so I really didn't need to buy it. We do use it on occasion when DD does AB on her own. Most of the time we do it together and use the teacher's book.

 

Thank you!! I love when I only have to buy one book :D

[Aquinas Academy]

I think your quotes look broken because you're deleting one of the brackets at the end of the quote.

 

Would you find AB and Rulebook for Arguments to be redundant? Or would they work well together. I'm trying to plan longterm. While I love CAP products I do have to think about budget.

 

Thank you for the tip about quotes!

I think AB provides a good transition between elementary and high school level work and texts. I don't think it is redundant to both, but if you are going to use A Rulebook for Arguments then you wouldn't need to use AB, espcially if your child is older (9th/10th+).

[elegantlion]

Thank you for the tip about quotes!

I think AB provides a good transition between elementary and high school level work and texts. I don't think it is redundant to both, but if you are going to use A Rulebook for Arguments then you wouldn't need to use AB, espcially if your child is older (9th/10th+).

 

Thank you.

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Thank you for the tip about quotes!

I think AB provides a good transition between elementary and high school level work and texts. I don't think it is redundant to both, but if you are going to use A Rulebook for Arguments then you wouldn't need to use AB, espcially if your child is older (9th/10th+).

 

Thank you.

 

This has been such a helpful thread. Thank you so much for discussing logic with me. :001_smile:

[TC5]

Great thread. Thank you. This answered almost all of my questions about what to do for logic for the next few years.