Can we have a SN s/o of Nan's thread in K-8?

[peacefully]

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[rafiki]

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[nitascool]

" LD do not just affect academics, they affect all aspects of life. Many also struggle with social, day to day activities, communicating effectively, following instructions, going to new places, seeing details, managing their time, being their own advocate, organization, cooking, driving, etc.

 

Now it would really be nice to have some "curriculum" for these subjects. And yes, that don't cost thousands of dollars. If we could find a nice volume control system for his auditory issues, some sort of focus toggle bar for his hinky visual issues, and some way to teach writing while laying upside down on the couch. I could really get into something like that.

[peacefully]

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[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[PrincessAriel]

nt

[LizzyBee]

I guess I'm having a hard time processing and applying those threads, because I just don't get it.:confused: Don't get me wrong, I don't presume to know everything about the WTM way (we don't follow it mostly), nor have I homeschooled high school (though I do have a stepdd in college who I tutored all the way through p.s.).

 

Perhaps I'm missing something, but the exercises of listening / narrating / copywork are just that. Exercises. Some kids don't really need that level of intense instruction to 'get it.' My dc (both the typical and the dyslexic) have been able to listen to stories, condense them, and repeat them back to me -- with understanding -- since they were toddlers. Both have done pages of copywork for handwriting practice. My LD ds does dictation in spelling every.single.day. My oldest ds has learned to take notes from his books using (gasp!) a highlighter pen.

 

I can see where the skill of note taking in class will be important for my LD later, and he will have to rely heavily on technologies to fill that gap. The same goes for reading & processing a college level textbook. However, I do not see my time as well spent to concentrate on a weak arm when I can be building the rest of the body.

 

When ds was first diagnosed, our ed psych cautioned us to be aware of diminishing returns -- a point at which the time we put into an area is not worth what we are getting out. Our time is valuable and we need to get the biggest bang for our buck. That is, there is a point at which we must accept areas of weakness and work on areas of strength; compensate rather than remediate. Assistive technology is a blessing not a curse, so we use it. I am thinking simple things like voice & video recorders, audiobooks, and spell check, as well as more complicated voice recognition software like Dragon Naturally and Kurzweil text readers. (BTW, our ed psych is dyslexic himself and managed multiple advanced degrees before LD's got anything close to the support they have now.)

 

I'm opening myself up for return fire by disagreeing with SWB, and Nan, and OhE's educational model/philosophy, but there you go. :D In my defense, I was moved enough by all the discussion to go take another look through my falling-apart first edition WTM, and plow through all 100+ pages of WWE samples. It just confirmed that the listening/narration/copywork piece is one of those areas where we could spend a lot of time, but we aren't going to. I just don't see the point.

 

:auto: Time to head for the hills.

 

I think your post perhaps demonstrates that all kids are individuals, all special needs kids are individuals, and we are teaching kids, not a curriculum or a method.

 

Your dyslexic child could hear a story, process it, and tell you about it with no problem. My dyslexic kids couldn't. My youngest in particular has really struggled with processing what she hears. Two years ago, she had almost no phonemic awareness and almost no auditory memory. I could say to her, "A makes /a/. What sound does a make?" She had no idea. Or I could say, "Go put on your pajamas. What did I just say?" She didn't know. Or maybe she knew for a moment, but by the time she walked down the hall to her room, she'd forgotten. It wasn't "selective hearing." She simply could not remember what she heard.

 

About 5 months ago, something clicked. My dd listens to books on CD voraciously and understands the story. She can tell us about things that happened in the story. The breakthrough showed up in her reading skills 1-2 months ago. She is reading Boxcar Children books independently with comprehension. (Shh! Don't tell Susan Barton that I'm allowing dd to read text that is not controlled. I do tell her to use her talking dictionary and not to guess at words she doesn't know. :D )

 

Narration was something my dd needed to be taught because it didn't come naturally to her. She needs dictation to move her toward the ability to write original compositions. She will likely need dictation for a long time. If your child didn't need practice with those things, you're right; there was no point in wasting your time on them. Because our kids are individuals, not descriptions in a book or on a website, and because our sn kids need sooo much extra time to remediate their weak areas, we have to trust our ability to discern the best way to spend to spend our time and other limited resources.

[Nan in Mass]

I was right where you are now at one point with one of my children. It sounds like you might be avoiding some of my problems. I would urge you to just keep checking that your children can still digest the material each year. That was the biggest mistake I made. Mine, too, could listen to a story and give me a lovely little summary when they were younger. Somehow, that disappeared as they got older and had to be relearned. Or they couldn't do it at a higher level. Or something. I'm not sure what happened.

 

I would happily have relied on technology and we have offered to buy our children whichever things they think will make their job easier. They have laptops with word processors and spell checkers, but they have sadly concluded that the rest of the cool things just aren't going to be all that helpful. They would be helpful if they made the processor faster for them, but so far, they have concluded that it wouldn't. Speed is a major problem in college. Sigh. Recording a lecture to process it later is helpful if you are absolutely unable to take notes from the lecture at the time, but then instead of running over your notes, you have to listen to the whole lecture again, starting and stopping the recording as you write the notes. This is too slow to be helpful for my children, who are actually able to take notes, even if they aren't very good ones. (Those cool new pens should help solve this problem, by the way.) You can record a lecture but at some point, you are probably still going to have to pick out which bits you need to memorize or practise working with until whatever it is you are trying to do comes fast and easily. It isn't just note-taking, though. It is also giving concise answers to essay questions, deciding what to study for tests, and other things. Technology doesn't help much with those things. And for my children, highlighting a textbook was too passive a thing to be very useful. They need to manipulate the information more - put it in their own words, think about what they already know about this, think about how it fits together what else they know, think about what they can do with the information and what else they might need to know. They did all that automatically, without thinking about it, when they were younger. It wasn't until the material became much more difficult that we realized that they were struggling. They needed to practise it with easy stuff so they could do it with hard stuff. It just seemed pretty useless to practise it with easy stuff until they were confronted with hard stuff. I think sometimes we as homeschooling parents beat ourselves up whenever we have to back up, but sometimes, it makes more sense to go forward until you get stuck and can see why you need those skills, then back up and learn them, and then go forward again. A straight line isn't always the most efficient method of getting from point a to point b when you are dealing with people, especially people who need to know why and need to see the big picture first, before they can put the puzzle together.

 

I think you are absolutely right about judging when to put effort into something and when it isn't worth it. Do you put lots of time into making them able to do things not-quite-adequate, or do you put that time into making them better at something they are going to be good at? I think the answer turns out to be a balance point that you have to find for your individual child. Sigh. It would be so much easier if the answer were one or the other. Something that helped me was reading a book called something like The Myth of Laziness. In it, the author said that every child deserves to be taught to write. The nitpicky part of me objected strongly to the "every" part, but my children were able to learn to write without it taking over our whole lives. It took an enormous chunk of our time, but not all of it.

 

Anyhow, you won't see me throwing any tomatoes at you GRIN. I opted to give up on spelling as a dead end, and we studied hardly any grammar because my children happen to be very good at seeing the grammar patterns when they need to. I would be glad to buy my children technology if that would help them to do their work faster or better. I am just trying to say that I think, looking back on things now, that if *I* had done more narration and dictation when they were young, it might have found college easier. I have no idea how it works for your particular children, though. And I know nothing about things like dislexia. That is why I didn't crosspost here. Just ignore the above if it doesn't make sense in your situation.

 

-Nan

[peacefully]

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[peacefully]

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[Nan in Mass]

Not more but more consistently. I think I need to add that to my original post, if that is ok with you? I just added a PPPS because I was getting nightmares wondering if I had doomed lots of children to hours of drudgery. I'm all for working hard in school, but...

-Nan

[peacefully]

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[Nan in Mass]

I made lots of progress getting mine to retell short folktales. They were much more fun than a history lesson or something. We each read a science article and told the others about it, too (me, too). That also was more fun. I think these were successful because they had a purpose other than just practising a skill. My wired-differently son did these when he was 15.

[HeidiD]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but the exercises of listening / narrating / copywork are just that. Exercises. Some kids don't really need that level of intense instruction to 'get it.'

 

 

Very true. And it's definitely a more onerous approach for kids with language LD's or dysgraphic kids than for typical kids. Why is narration/dictation/copying considered so essential, whether one is following WTM or the Charlotte Mason Method, when the desired results can be achieved using other types of exercises?

 

 

I can see where the skill of note taking in class will be important for my LD later, and he will have to rely heavily on technologies to fill that gap.

How would dictation/narration develop the skill of notetaking? They seem like very different skills. Note taking requires filtering information and only noting the important parts, while dictation is writing word for word, and ability to narrate is completely irrelevant to notetaking. It's helpful to work on notetaking as a distinct skill, using videos with lecture formats for practice. (Also IEW has a program called "Advanced Communications" which specifically teaches college skills.)

 

When ds was first diagnosed, our ed psych cautioned us to be aware of diminishing returns -- a point at which the time we put into an area is not worth what we are getting out.

 

I so agree with this - particularly since I have several kids who have LDs (one mildly dyslexic, one with Aspergers, and one severely dyslexic) as well as several others who are EG. None are typical, so I've had to think long and hard about priorities. I've found that by generally prioritizing and working on reading and critical analysis, computation skills, and verbal communication skills, the rest has seemed to fall into place over time.

 

I've tried to avoid cloning a certain type of education for each child; rather I try to take into account each child's interests, strengths and weaknesses. My two eldest are mathematically inclined and a heavily literature-based program was not a good fit, so their high school courses were more weighted toward math and science. My third child (dyslexic, yet reads prodigiously) is interested in law, so his curriculum has had a more WTM emphasis (exception for dictation/narration :)). My fourth child has Aspergers, and once again, her curriculum has been different than the others, with lots more time focused on her particular talent (art/design) and with college not necessarily the end goal.

 

Our time is valuable and we need to get the biggest bang for our buck. That is, there is a point at which we must accept areas of weakness and work on areas of strength; compensate rather than remediate.

 

I think so, too. Basically, I want them to be able to read, think communicate and compute to whatever degree they can achieve within their particular ability level, and I look for the quickest ways to accomplish this. One of the most helpful tactics I've discovered for the kids with language LD's is lots of back and forth discussion on topics of interest, news, politics, history, books they're reading, etc. This helps strengthen logic and communication skills, and also (with instant feedback provided) language production skills, simultaneously, with the added benefit of being relatively painless (except when we start arguing about politics) :).

 

 

 

:auto: Time to head for the hills.

 

Maybe I'd better come with you! :lol:

[peacefully]

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Edited November 20, 2012 by yllek
typo and forgot to add appropriate qualifiers

[LizzyBee]

Very true. And it's definitely a more onerous approach for kids with language LD's or dysgraphic kids than for typical kids. Why is narration/dictation/copying considered so essential, whether one is following WTM or the Charlotte Mason Method, when the desired results can be achieved using other types of exercises?

 

This is a sincere question: What other types of exercises would you use to achieve the results gained from narration, dictation, and copywork? I feel like these skills are absolutely necessary for my dyslexic dd, and they are a very gentle introduction to composition and writing. My older kids started out in public school, and they were given blank paper and told to write. THAT would be an onerous approach for my dd9, whose dyslexia is relatively severe. It didn't work well for my middle dd, who is mildly dyslexic, either, which led to homeschooling for us.

 

How would dictation/narration develop the skill of notetaking? They seem like very different skills. Note taking requires filtering information and only noting the important parts, while dictation is writing word for word, and ability to narrate is completely irrelevant to notetaking. It's helpful to work on notetaking as a distinct skill, using videos with lecture formats for practice. (Also IEW has a program called "Advanced Communications" which specifically teaches college skills.)

 

I think the point is to break the skill of writing into its separate parts and develop one skill at a time. I tried to teach my middle dd notetaking by listening to a lecture, and she had the meltdown of the century. The EdPsych who diagnosed her LDs told me she would never learn to take notes and that skill would have to be accomodated, but she is in ps now and does take notes. In h.s., they use a lot of hand-outs where the kids just have to fill in a blank or write a definition, and they use a lot of power point presentations that the kids can copy the notes from. But dd is doing more than the EdPsych thought she'd be able to, and I fully believe that when she gets to college, she'll be able to transition to notetaking from a lecture. But the skills had to be broken down into smaller parts for her, so when I tried to teach her notetaking before she went back to school, we backed up to copywork and dictation. Not a lot of it, but some.

 

.....

 

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[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[peacefully]

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[rafiki]

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[LizzyBee]

Cheers, Heidi! :cheers2: :lol:

 

And Yllek, at the risk of further raising ire, or of being reminded again that all our kids are different, I can only say what worked for mine. Basically, patience, repetition, and dogged determination to keep at it until he got it. Further, letting go of everyone else's ideas of what made a good education to focus on my kids and their individual paths. What the mom of a bright-but-mathy kid needs to do to prepare her dc for a literature class has little resemblance to what my kid needs to do to stop reversing letters when he prints his own name, kwim?

 

What other ways can the benefits of C/D/N be achieved? Tons. Copy for practice in correctly forming letters or to drill your child's name / address / phone number (are we the only ones who still have to do this ??? :confused:). Dictate for spelling. Narrate about ... well ... anything ... a movie, a cartoon, an audiobook, the nightly news, his newest video game. Here's one of my best homeschooling buys ever: Quick Flip Questions For Critical Thinking. Yes, that's right -- only $3.25! :D A slow, gentle approach to writing, with prompts when needed, freely when not, is working as well.

 

It's taken a long time for me to feel comfortable in our approach and materials. Some days I still wonder, since I am so obviously out of step with the conventional wisdom on these boards. ;) Best wishes to you as you find your path :grouphug:

 

I don't think you've raised anyone's ire. Sharing what we do with our own kids is what we all do, and I always hope my experience might help someone else out there when I post.

 

What you do sounds a lot like what we do for C/D/N. We do use WWE because my dd likes it, but she's a 4th grader doing level 2. She's reading Boxcar Children books, not great literature, but I'm thrilled with that, and I'm glad when she tells me something that happened in one of the books. She listens to audiobooks, and sometimes tells me something that happened in one of them. IMO, that counts as narration. We do dictation for spelling using Barton Reading - definitely not great literature there. :tongue_smilie:

[Critterfixer]

Just my two cents here. The fact that we as teachers care enough to find the best ways to teach our children how they can learn, thrive and just make it in the world is worth a great deal.

I think everyone here ought to get a standing ovation.

 

Teaching the skills of a classical education to my son is a lot like trying to convey vital instructions about navigating a particularly bad stretch of water to a) a child, who b) speaks a foreign language and c) is wearing a blindfold. The goal is still to find a way to help get him down that river. So, what am I going to do? Model, model, model. As much as I possibly can.

[peacefully]

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[merry gardens]

I don't think you've raised anyone's ire. Sharing what we do with our own kids is what we all do, and I always hope my experience might help someone else out there when I post.

 

What you do sounds a lot like what we do for C/D/N. We do use WWE because my dd likes it, but she's a 4th grader doing level 2. She's reading Boxcar Children books, not great literature, but I'm thrilled with that, and I'm glad when she tells me something that happened in one of the books. She listens to audiobooks, and sometimes tells me something that happened in one of them. IMO, that counts as narration. We do dictation for spelling using Barton Reading - definitely not great literature there. :tongue_smilie:

 

Yes, it sounded to me like Shari was doing more WTM styled teaching for her children than I do for mine. :lol:

 

Our dictation is via Barton Reading. Word, then phrase, then sentence. We use a white board with brightly colored markers. We just started Barton level five that introduces prefixes and suffixes--viola the beginnings of our sn Latin and Greek!

 

We only recently resumed doing copywork--one sentence (same one all week.) That was after a half a year where our "handwriting" involved primarily just simple strokes set to music while wearing a weighted glove and playing with an assortment of toys that develop hand muscles.

 

Narration? I don't know. Does Idea Chain and Visualizing and Verbalizing count towards narration?

 

There's a certain order to doing things. Baby-talk and scribbles procede reading and writing. For a long time I tried to teach my ds to read when he had speech problems due to his poor phonemic awareness. I wasted a large amount of effort trying to teach phonics skills to someone who couldn't detect the difference between numerous phonemes. It wasn't as if I was ignoring the problem, but it took quite a while to figure out what was going on and what to do about it. If a child has speech or vision or auditory processing and memory problems or poor muscle control, etc. etc., there needs to be a lot of ground work done that most people take for granted. And trying to find out what's going on--that's a whole other thread topic!

Edited March 22, 2011 by merry gardens

[LizzyBee]

Just curious, LizzyBee, to what do you attribute that "click" your dd had five months ago?

 

I'm not really sure, and it probably isn't just one thing. She's had speech therapy and OT, but she finished all therapy last August. She's still doing Therapeutic Listening Program, but that's it. I've been reading about how OG based programs build new pathways in the brain, stimulating the areas of the brain that aren't working as they should, and it kind of seems like maybe one of those areas that wasn't working is working now.

 

For awhile, I wondered if she'd ever read fluently or for pleasure. It just about makes my heart burst when she says she "needs" her book that she left in the truck or asks if she can take a book to bed with her. She's still reading below grade level, but it's really exciting to see progress. Her writing is improving, too. Two weeks ago, she sent me an email to let me know she needed A Hose and His Boy from the liberrry for her lit class. :lol:

[Nan in Mass]

Link to a link about that pen:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256411

[peacefully]

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[LizzyBee]

I love it! :party: I'm so happy for her that she is enjoying the fruits of all her hard work. :hurray::hurray:

 

I've so interested in these brain plasticity topics lately. I sometimes have these tantalizing two-minute conversations with ds's SLP, talking about processing and brain changes. Amazing stuff.

 

Some days have been so hard, and I just keep telling her that if we do a little bit every day, it will get easier. I think she believes me now, because she's experiencing that! And she's finding out how books open up the world and allow her to experience things she may never see and places she may never go.

 

You might be interested in the OG introductory course offered by http://www.epsbooks.com for $49. The part about how the brain processes language in dyslexics and non-dyslexics is pretty fascinating. It goes into a little more detail than what I've read in the past, and it helps me understand the progression of how to remediate the weaknesses.

[wapiti]

:lurk5: (I had a whole bunch to say the other day but no time to write and this morning my brain is fuzzy :tongue_smilie:, plus my thinking keeps evolving)

[HeidiD]

.

My older kids started out in public school, and they were given blank paper and told to write. THAT would be an onerous approach for my dd9, whose dyslexia is relatively severe. It didn't work well for my middle dd, who is mildly dyslexic, either, which led to homeschooling for us.

 

Wow, that's awful! I think that would be an onerous approach for many kids, dyslexic or not. :tongue_smilie:

 

Re dictation, etc. - it can be wonderfully efficient, but not in all cases. I wanted to point out that it's a means to an end, that's all. If it isn't a good fit, there are other ways (learned the hard way on this). I'm not a trained teacher, so when I started homeschooling, I read lots of books on the subject, and zeroed in on Charlotte Mason as an interesting approach. So there I was, sitting on the sofa trying to read aloud to this bunch of wiggly boys (some with undiagnosed auditory problems, dyslexia, etc.!) and wondering why they weren't fitting into the program. After all, this is what Charlotte says to do, so it must be THE WAY to go. Ditto the dictation/narration thing.

 

I think that learning style has a lot to do with which methods are most efficient. My kids with language LD's are visual, big picture thinkers and learn more efficiently when the material is relevant to them. Combine that with CAPD, and auditory approaches such as dictation, or incremental programs such as Writing Strands aren't the most efficient for practicing composition skills, but very effective at creating much frustration! :)

 

So, for exercises, I use models and examples for them to look at, study and imitate. We talk about theses, etc. so they're aware of proper structure. Then they practice writing and rewriting. A nice, pick-up-and-go composition practice book for high school that's designed for this approach is Composition in the Classical Tradition. I've also used Teacher Created Resources, MOSDOS and even V/V workbooks.

 

And for note-taking, I did resort to Andrew Pudewa's IEW program, "Advanced Communications" for my 15 yo dyslexic son. It's long and I found it dull (and left the room :) ) but by the time he was done with it, he was taking good notes. He can watch it again and again if necessary as college looms closer.

 

 

I think the point is to break the skill of writing into its separate parts and develop one skill at a time.

 

In the case of my son who is severely dyslexic/dysgraphic, he needs more intensive practice than this approach can provide. Spelling, for instance requires a separate OG approach with lots of time on task - daily. Handwriting - probably never going to be beautiful in his case, so the word processor is the way to go. He gets some handwriting practice writing short answers in workbooks and vocabulary books, without putting extra time into a (probable) lost cause.:) Orderly thinking, support of ideas and assertions - these are another important skill for writing, but much of this can be learned through oral discussion and feedback.

 

 

But dd is doing more than the EdPsych thought she'd be able to, and I fully believe that when she gets to college, she'll be able to transition to notetaking from a lecture.

 

 

That is so gratifying. You must be very pleased. :) Looking back, I'm so glad I didn't listen to the naysayers.

 

Another notetaking tip I came upon somewhere (maybe your daughter is already doing this, but it's not something I ever thought to do in college, unfortunately :tongue_smilie:) is to always read the chapter before the lecture. Then you'll be aware of which info the teacher relays that is already in the book, eliminating the need to write it down again in your notes. Particularly helpful for people with CAPD who are already struggling to accurately process what they're hearing.

[Nan in Mass]

I hesitate to post this, since I know it seems pretty trivial compared to what some of you guys are dealing with, but just in case it helps somebody...

 

My children both were very put off by good paper. They hated to draw in sketchbooks and found it hard to write on nice new paper. I sort of remember feeling this way myself, too. My father brought home scrap paper from work. It was mimeographed papers with the pages held together with a staple. I flipped it over and used that and somehow, it was much easier to write in than the nice notebooks my mother bought me for school. Going one better than that, I found that if I took scrap paper from my husband's work (xeroxed on one side) and ripped it into largish irregular chunks, sometimes my children were more willing to write, especially if it was something that required them to be creative or to express themselves. Even to this day, I myself like to take scrap paper, interleave it with pictures cut out of magazines, sew it together into a rough booklet, and use that if I am going to do any creative writing.

 

It might be worth a try for some of those short copy work sessions.

 

-Nan

[LizzyBee]

Re dictation, etc. - it can be wonderfully efficient, but not in all cases. I wanted to point out that it's a means to an end, that's all. If it isn't a good fit, there are other ways (learned the hard way on this). I'm not a trained teacher, so when I started homeschooling, I read lots of books on the subject, and zeroed in on Charlotte Mason as an interesting approach. So there I was, sitting on the sofa trying to read aloud to this bunch of wiggly boys (some with undiagnosed auditory problems, dyslexia, etc.!) and wondering why they weren't fitting into the program. After all, this is what Charlotte says to do, so it must be THE WAY to go. Ditto the dictation/narration thing.

 

I think that learning style has a lot to do with which methods are most efficient. My kids with language LD's are visual, big picture thinkers and learn more efficiently when the material is relevant to them. Combine that with CAPD, and auditory approaches such as dictation, or incremental programs such as Writing Strands aren't the most efficient for practicing composition skills, but very effective at creating much frustration! :)

 

So, for exercises, I use models and examples for them to look at, study and imitate. We talk about theses, etc. so they're aware of proper structure. Then they practice writing and rewriting. A nice, pick-up-and-go composition practice book for high school that's designed for this approach is Composition in the Classical Tradition. I've also used Teacher Created Resources, MOSDOS and even V/V workbooks.

 

And for note-taking, I did resort to Andrew Pudewa's IEW program, "Advanced Communications" for my 15 yo dyslexic son. It's long and I found it dull (and left the room :) ) but by the time he was done with it, he was taking good notes. He can watch it again and again if necessary as college looms closer.

 

 

I think the point is to break the skill of writing into its separate parts and develop one skill at a time.

 

In the case of my son who is severely dyslexic/dysgraphic, he needs more intensive practice than this approach can provide. Spelling, for instance requires a separate OG approach with lots of time on task - daily. Handwriting - probably never going to be beautiful in his case, so the word processor is the way to go. He gets some handwriting practice writing short answers in workbooks and vocabulary books, without putting extra time into a (probable) lost cause.:) Orderly thinking, support of ideas and assertions - these are another important skill for writing, but much of this can be learned through oral discussion and feedback.

 

 

But dd is doing more than the EdPsych thought she'd be able to, and I fully believe that when she gets to college, she'll be able to transition to notetaking from a lecture.

 

 

That is so gratifying. You must be very pleased. :) Looking back, I'm so glad I didn't listen to the naysayers.

 

Another notetaking tip I came upon somewhere (maybe your daughter is already doing this, but it's not something I ever thought to do in college, unfortunately :tongue_smilie:) is to always read the chapter before the lecture. Then you'll be aware of which info the teacher relays that is already in the book, eliminating the need to write it down again in your notes. Particularly helpful for people with CAPD who are already struggling to accurately process what they're hearing.

 

Your description of implementing CM sounds like us with WTM. My oldest dd is a textbook girl all the way and trying to have a discussion with her about history is like pulling teeth. My middle dd has mild APD and dyslexia, and I used to make her sit beside me and follow the words while I read aloud, because she'd remember more that way. She enjoys listening to book on CD, so maybe making her listen to me read helped remediate the APD to some degree; but again, her APD is mild, not severe. She does thrive with visual curricula such as Choosing Your Way Through History and Vocabulary Cartoons.

 

I totally agree that learning style is important, and I always say that God has a sense of humor, giving me three kids with three different learning styles. :D

 

I think I have Composition in the Classical Tradition sitting in my Amazon cart to buy later, but just haven't bought it yet. For imitative writing, I have several levels of Classical Writing, which worked well for my middle dd. My dd9 isn't ready for Aesop yet, which is why we're using WWE. I'm beginning to question whether CW will be a good approach for her though, so we might use Verticy's writing after we finish WWE2. I'm still undecided.

 

I will keep IEW Advanced Communications in mind if my dd14 struggles as the note-taking increases in high school and as she approaches college. I've talked to her about reading the chapter in the book before it's covered in class. Her response? We don't have to read the book; it's not in our homework assignments. So we had a discussion about how reading the book is a given whether the teacher includes it in the homework or not. :001_huh:

 

My dd9's APD and dyslexia are also fairly severe, so she also needs an OG approach to reading and spelling. (I've read that if a child is working two or more grades below level, their dyslexia falls in the severe range. I admit, I still have a hard time saying or writing that my dd is severely dyslexic even though her reading is 2 yrs below level and her writing is 2.5 yrs below grade level. Somehow, putting a qualifier such as relatively or fairly severe or moderate to severe just makes it easier for me to deal with.) She needed intensive work on phonemic awareness before we could even start an OG based curriculum. We use Barton, which includes dictation of words, phrases, and sentences. My dd can't remember a sentence long enough to write it, so I (or her dad, if he's working with her) repeat it as many times as necessary. She used to forget single dictated words by the time she got her marker to the whiteboard or in the middle of writing them, but she's progressed to where she almost always remembers single words and even remembers phrases maybe 75% of the time. Can you tell she has a working memory deficit, too? :tongue_smilie:

 

DD9 also has the typical dyslexic-dysgraphia, but I guess this is another area where I am too stubborn to accept that she won't develop this skill. I've tried to have her write something, even if it's only 2-3 words, nearly every day since she was 6, and we use a slantboard for pencil/paper writing, which makes the process about 80% less laborious for her. We also use markers and whiteboards a lot. Over time, her writing has improved drastically, but it's been a very slow process. She used to tell me her hand hurt from writing even one word, but I kept telling that if she just writes a little bit every day, her muscles will get stronger and writing won't hurt anymore. She can write a lot more now than she could then, but "a lot more" is still nowhere close to what a typical 4th grader in our local public schools writes. I recently let her get an email account to encourage her composition skills, and I need to get her started on a typing program. She used the BBC Dance Mat typing program for awhile, but she's outgrown that and needs something a little more grown up.

 

I totally agree with having lots of oral discussion. My dd9 is a jabberbox who talks all. the. time. The challenge I'm facing now is teaching her how to organize her thoughts for longer conversations beyond small talk. She had both receptive and expressive language delays; at this point I'm not worried about the receptive, but I still see issues with the expressive. I think I need to combine writing and oral expression, or teach oral expression in a way similar to teaching writing, because graphic organizers used for writing would help her with oral expression. We're still plugging through WWE2 at this point, which includes oral expression via narration, but in planning ahead, I think the writing curriculum that we use next needs to have some focus on explicitly teaching how to organize one's thoughts so that we can use it for both writing and speech.

 

At this point with dd9, we are still focused on basic skills, and any time we have to spend on content areas is gravy. So, to the exent we use C/D/N, we are using it to remediate her weaknesses, not as a means to teach content areas. When my dd14 was homeschooled, she learned more history from making her own timeline than any other method. She learned more science by reading during her free time than from anything we did as schoolwork. When it comes to teaching content areas, I am all about capitalizing on my kids' strengths; otherwise, I don't think they remember and retain much of what they learn. As this discussion continues and expands, I think a lot of us here are probably doing similar things but talking about it in different ways.

Edited March 22, 2011 by LizzyBee

[wapiti]

At this point with dd9, we are still focused on basic skills, and any time we have to spend on content areas is gravy. So, to the exent we use C/D/N, we are using it to remediate her weaknesses, not as a means to teach content areas. When my dd14 was homeschooled, she learned more history from making her own timeline than any other method. She learned more science by reading during her free time than from anything we did as schoolwork. When it comes to teaching content areas, I am all about capitalizing on my kids' strengths; otherwise, I don't think they remember and retain much of what they learn. As this discussion continues and expands, I think a lot of us here are probably doing similar things but talking about it in different ways.

 

This makes sense to me. This is the approach I intend to take with dd9 as we finish up fourth grade. We started WWE, and I'm hoping to pinpoint any weaknesses and get through the book relatively quickly (hahaha, someone somewhere is laughing at me). We'll see... And yes, I agree with teaching content through strengths - otherwise it ends up being an exercise about remediating the weakness with the content ending up a casualty of the same. That's part of the package of this kiddo who is way ahead in some areas but yet struggles in other areas. Her skills are not on the same level as each other, and I like an approach that separates out the weaknesses for remediation, as well as allows ways around the weaknesses so that the development of strengths is not held hostage by the weaknesses. IMO, development of strengths are just as important as remediation of weaknesses. Plus, if there's content that is actually important to learn, with limited amounts of time and energy for learning available, it makes sense to take the "easy" route, using strengths, for such content.

 

On the other hand, working around a weakness isn't going to do a whole lot of good if the weakness isn't simultaneously addressed in other ways. Otherwise it simply gets weaker in comparison to the strengths.

 

I am struggling with the how and when to do this. On the one hand, there's definitely something to be said for taking a late bloomer back a few levels - it might be much easier than it might have been to do a few years before. On the other hand, younger-is-better/easier, when it comes to brain changes, or so it would seem.

 

think I need more coffee....

Edited March 22, 2011 by wapiti

[LizzyBee]

think I need more coffee....

 

I have a large mug of coffee in front of me right now. Let's drink together. :D

[wapiti]

OK! poured another half cup :)

 

Thinking out loud some more, at some point (when and where I'm not sure), it may make sense to continue working on the weak skill as part of the work being done in content areas, as well as addressing it separately, in order to prepare for high school. I'm thinking middle school may be the time to play around with adding back in whatever was separated out for remediation earlier.

 

For example, dd is slow at handwriting, due in part to some sort of slow processing speed along with the more obvious motor component. if I have dd typing any "writing," with cursive being handled separately until she has it down, at some point in middle school I'll require certain (but not all) assignments, of varying length, to be hand-written. I have no idea how high school exams are written these days, but I'm guessing most of them are by hand rather than via laptop.

 

I'm starting to feel like I'm talking in circles, or walking around in the dark without a flashlight...

[HeidiD]

I think I have Composition in the Classical Tradition sitting in my Amazon cart to buy later, but just haven't bought it yet.

 

I've recycled this book with 3 kids so far. For ease of use, I love it. :) My two oldest kids didn't do formal composition until high school, at which point they dabbled in Composition in the Classical Tradition, and Reading Critically, Writing Well.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Reading-Critically-Writing-Well-Reader/dp/0312390475/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1300821015&sr=8-3

 

This prepared them for Verbal SATs and college writing (one's in his second year and the other dual-enrolled). Third child (mildly dyslexic) is using it and his writing at this point is very good (when he started, he tended to include WAY too many details, but that bad habit has now disappeared. :))

 

For imitative writing, I have several levels of Classical Writing, which worked well for my middle dd. My dd9 isn't ready for Aesop yet, which is why we're using WWE. I'm beginning to question whether CW will be a good approach for her though, so we might use Verticy's writing after we finish WWE2. I'm still undecided.

 

I tried CW (fleetingly) and decided we needed a more streamlined and flexible approach. Tried Writeshop (too incremental), and Writing Strands (same problem). Now I just have them write, write and re-write, for the most part without adhering religiously to a particular program. And they don't start doing very much formal composition before jr. high or even high school. Instead we mainly work on reading, oral analysis and vocab.

 

My dd9's APD and dyslexia are also fairly severe, so she also needs an OG approach to reading and spelling. (I've read that if a child is working two or more grades below level, their dyslexia falls in the severe range. I admit, I still have a hard time saying or writing that my dd is severely dyslexic even though her reading is 2 yrs below level and her writing is 2.5 yrs below grade level.)

 

 

As you keep working, she will catch up (at least with the reading). My severely dyslexic son (12) uses texts at grade level now, but when he was 9, he was a couple of years behind. As for spelling, we are still digging in, and he'll never win a spelling bee, but as long as he gets to the average range (hopefully), that's good enough.

 

 

She used to tell me her hand hurt from writing even one word, but I kept telling that if she just writes a little bit every day, her muscles will get stronger and writing won't hurt anymore. She can write a lot more now than she could then, but "a lot more" is still nowhere close to what a typical 4th grader in our local public schools writes.

 

Well, it sounds like you are splitting the difference, which is the sensible thing to do. If we can help them develop as much writing ability as possible, while accepting that it's never going to be perfect, that's all to the good.

 

I think the writing curriculum that we use next needs to have some focus on explicitly teaching how to organize one's thoughts so that we can use it for both writing and speech.

 

Now that would be something really useful. :) If you find a program like that, I hope you'll give us a heads up here.

 

When my dd14 was homeschooled, she learned more history from making her own timeline than any other method. She learned more science by reading during her free time than from anything we did as schoolwork. When it comes to teaching content areas, I am all about capitalizing on my kids' strengths; otherwise, I don't think they remember and retain much of what they learn.

 

For sure! I never taught formal science to my older kids before high school (they read "living books" for that) and they loved science. But then I decided to teach them high school biology, and that's the point where their love of science flew out the window. :lol:

 

Another of my kids is like a history encyclopedia (no thanks to me, or any particular method, either!) He just likes history and likes to read.

 

As this discussion continues and expands, I think a lot of us here are probably doing similar things but talking about it in different ways.

 

:iagree:

[LizzyBee]

I've recycled this book with 3 kids so far. For ease of use, I love it. :) My two oldest kids didn't do formal composition until high school, at which point they dabbled in Composition in the Classical Tradition, and Reading Critically, Writing Well.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Reading-Critically-Writing-Well-Reader/dp/0312390475/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1300821015&sr=8-3

 

This prepared them for Verbal SATs and college writing (one's in his second year and the other dual-enrolled). Third child (mildly dyslexic) is using it and his writing at this point is very good (when he started, he tended to include WAY too many details, but that bad habit has now disappeared. :))

 

I tried CW (fleetingly) and decided we needed a more streamlined and flexible approach. Tried Writeshop (too incremental), and Writing Strands (same problem). Now I just have them write, write and re-write, for the most part without adhering religiously to a particular program. And they don't start doing very much formal composition before jr. high or even high school. Instead we mainly work on reading, oral analysis and vocab.

 

As you keep working, she will catch up (at least with the reading). My severely dyslexic son (12) uses texts at grade level now, but when he was 9, he was a couple of years behind. As for spelling, we are still digging in, and he'll never win a spelling bee, but as long as he gets to the average range (hopefully), that's good enough.

 

Well, it sounds like you are splitting the difference, which is the sensible thing to do. If we can help them develop as much writing ability as possible, while accepting that it's never going to be perfect, that's all to the good.

 

Now that would be something really useful. :) If you find a program like that, I hope you'll give us a heads up here.

 

For sure! I never taught formal science to my older kids before high school (they read "living books" for that) and they loved science. But then I decided to teach them high school biology, and that's the point where their love of science flew out the window. :lol:

 

Another of my kids is like a history encyclopedia (no thanks to me, or any particular method, either!) He just likes history and likes to read.

 

:iagree:

 

Thanks, Heidi! There's a lot of encouragement in your post, as well as some resources for me to make a note of.

 

About the spelling - My dd14 lagged somewhat behind in reading when she was younger, but spelling was her real nemesis. At one point, I thought she would be one of those people that never learned to spell. Then we stumbled on something that worked for her, and although she'll also never win a spelling bee, she is a decent speller. I would consider her very average. For ex, she still sometimes uses vowel teams that don't exist such as ia for ai. However, her 9th grade English teacher gave the class a spelling test and my dd got the highest score. On one hand, I was very happy for my dd and the boost to her self-esteem. But OTOH, I thought it reflected very sadly on the state of our public schools. Most of the other kids have been spelling 3-4 syllable words on spelling tests since 3rd grade, but a dyslexic kid did better on a 9th grade spelling test because they have never been given the tools to decode and encode unfamiliar words.

[peacefully]

.

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm