Saxon Addition

[Pam Wilhelm]

Has anyone here had this experience....... my girls have done Saxon Math up through Math 2 and we were beginning Math 3 and they just don't have mastery of their addition tables. They get the concept of Addition and Subtraction and even sort of understand multiplication a wee bit........ but they just don't have good recall for addition/subtraction........ is it me (probably) or is it the curriculum (possibly).....????

 

For the time being we have put Saxon aside and are just working on the Addition tables day by day..... little by little... we are somewhat following Ray's Arithmetic.

 

But has anyone found themselves in the same place with Saxon? My girls' should be at 4th grade (could care less about math) and 3rd grade (very competitive and wants to excel).

[EKS]

I would just keep drilling, flashcards or whatever. If you like Saxon, I would stay with it because there are so many problems by the time they get into the middle grades math that if they don't know the facts, they will be spending hours each day on the problem sets. I guess what I'm saying is that they will probably learn them one way or another doing Saxon.

 

Another way to approach facts practice is to do games (like those recommended in RightStart). This requires the student to not only remember the facts but to be able to use them flexibly in a game situation, sort of like what happens in real math problems.

[Pam Wilhelm]

Thanks EKS......

 

I guess when you hear so much of the pros and cons of a curriculum that you start having doubts.... I've heard/read that Saxon doesn't prepare the kids for doing the math in real life circumstances, etc. That the kids may finish the years curriculum but not know how to apply it........ I guess, long term, that is my fear. Math is my waterloo...... I just don't know what to do about it. I'm okay doing math myself, but don't want to screw up my kids......

 

I guess, one way or another, we'll work it out.

[Myrtle]

Pam,

 

I am using Singapore with my daughter and it has almost no drill at all. I ended up taking a 2nd grade Saxon book ripping out all the drill sheets and had her go through two or three of them per day. in the very beginning I had her fill in only a single line of math facts, I'd cover up the answer and have her tell me orally what the answers were over and over again for the same line, the same five math facts, over and over again until she could do it quickly and remember. If five was too many I'd point to the same three back and forth randomly picking one to ask. When she mastered that line, I'd cover it up and have her do the second line and we'd repeat the whole process again.

 

As she got better at her math facts I discontinued the line by line practice and added in Flashmaster which is an electronic flashcard device in which you have the option of entering which math facts you want to appear. So anyway, I'd look at the math facts on the upcoming sheet, put them in the Flashmaster have her practice them before doing the sheet, do the sheet, practice again on flashmaster, repeat for the next sheet.

 

I do not know what the official Saxon definition of "mastery is" since I don't have the teachers manual. Perhaps they tell you that if your child can not answer some number of addition facts within some number of seconds that the child has not mastered them. (Having taught arithemetic twice before I'm satisfied that she knows this well enough to not have issues with double digit addition when we get there) I am wondering if maybe your daughter simply needs more practice and wanted to let you know how intense and frequently that the practice had to be for it to "stick" with mine.

 

The moral of the story was not only was Singapore not enough, the Singapore supplements were not enough, the manipulatives were not enough, but Saxon drill alone on top of all that was not enough either and we had to double up on the problems and add in Flashmaster. I don't think there is anything wrong with my daughter,no LD or anything like that, I just think some kids need more intense practice than others.

[Pam Wilhelm]

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

 

I think you are right...... we "just" need to find the right combo of drill, work, etc. that will work. I think by us just focusing on the tables.... for however many weeks/months it takes will be time well spent. I think when we started concentrating on just the math facts the girls really started getting the idea how important this was..... when we stopped doing all the periphreal (sp?) stuff and just the tables.... they are beginning to apply themselves a little more.

 

This homeschooling stuff is tough..... then the only contact with another homeschooler you have is with someone whose child was on a 9th grade level in utero then you get nothing but guilt and hopeless feelings for what you are doing. Thank you for your guidance.......and candor...... it is very welcome!

[Myrtle]

whose child was on a 9th grade level in utero

 

Tell me about it!! LOL

[gardenschooler]

Myrtle, thanks for the reminder of just how much drill they sometimes need. My little one (3rd grade) apparently needs a whole lot more than her sisters did, and now I know a good way to give it to her. I'll use the same materials we always use (BJU), but I will drill her LOTS more.

 

I know I let her play a little too much in 1st & 2nd grades. We were learning math facts and other fun stuff, but now that she's in 3rd, and she actually has to recall them quickly, we'd better get cracking! She's been doing 4-digit addition and subtraction lately, and the subtraction is taking her much longer than it should.

 

This is kind of hard to understand, because my experience with dd#1 was that I started her a little early (oldest child, first venture into homeschooling!), and dd#2 has never had any problem in math - although I think she's learned some of what's to come by osmosis, as they're close in age.

 

Very helpful post, Myrtle!

[Chris in VA]

I just wanted to say that Saxon gives your child lots of time to learn the math facts. My dd is in Saxon 3, around Lesson 89, and was just introduced to the last 16 subtraction problems. Saxon teaches the math facts in relation to one another; for instance, as you know, the addition doubles are taught first. They build on one another. It's kinda weird, to me, to be teaching square roots, multiplication, and the metric system, and then go back and pick up these subtraction problems. But, it works for my dd, so I really don't have a problem with it. I just remember learning all the addition facts, all the subtraction facts , then branching out into learning all the multiplication facts, etc.--everything so orderly. Saxon sometimes seems all over the place! But, it really does have a "method to its madness!" All the loose ends seem to get tied up, and then you realize you got to the same place you wanted to be, just by a different road.

 

 

Even though you are feeling your children are behind, I truly wouldn't worry. They will master the facts as they go, imo. Yes, you certainly can drill more. But you may not need to. Are you doing all the meeting book activities everyday? This was key for us. Seemed like a lot, but made a huge difference.

I split it up, too. And we do some math facts at other times during the day, too (like in the car, or sometimes with Daddy). As for real world stuff, are they doing things like cooking and measuring for crafts? Do they see you balancing your checkbook? Saxon does include real world applications--in fact, they teach in Saxon 3 how to write a check! I thought that was kind of funny.

Anyway, hang in there. hth

[Pam Wilhelm]

Thank you Chris..... that helps alot! :)

[EKS]

I've heard/read that Saxon doesn't prepare the kids for doing the math in real life circumstances, etc. That the kids may finish the years curriculum but not know how to apply it.

 

I've used several math programs (Saxon, Singapore, MUS, RightStart). Each has its own strengths and weaknesses. Saxon is very good for long term retention of and fluency with procedures. It presents concepts well, for the most part, but after that presentation, doesn't require the student to understand the concept to do the multitude of review problems. The review problems are basically all alike and so if the student didn't understand the concept when it was presented, he/she could still become proficient in cranking out answers to problems by memorizing some procedure or another.

 

Singapore is different in that there are fewer problems. However, the word problems in particular, require the student to fully understand the concept being taught, and frequently several concepts previously taught. The student needs to be able to think flexibly about the problem in order to develop a strategy to solve it. I have not seen such amazing word problems in any other elementary math program.

 

If you like Saxon in other ways, you can get the benefit of the word problems in Singapore by just supplementing Saxon with Singapore's Challenging Word Problems book. It is a wonderfully inexpensive, very powerful supplement.

 

So as far as facts memorization goes, I think you're fine with Saxon and flashcards (or whatever your preferred facts drill is). But I think your concern about application of concepts in Saxon is legitimate.

[langfam]

http://longevitypublishing.com/

 

I use this for my youngest: "Two plus Two is Not Five". Very easy to use and effective. There are sample pages at this website for you to look at.

 

My 4 other children used Saxon from the early grades and learned their math facts very slowly. It wasn't until 4th grade that they memorized their addition and subtraction facts. Multiplication facts even later.

 

With my youngest I started with Saxon1 but he just couldn't do the worksheets (something to do with the size of the print, he was always complaining about it). I switched him to Horizons and he does well with it. He's halfway through Horizons 2 and can add three rows of thousands, take away hundreds with regrouping and multiply 0's, 1's, 2's, 5's and 10's . None of my other kids had to do this with Saxon 2.

 

Saxon I think takes a more gradual approach, but the kids eventually get to the same place. I do recommend "Two plus Two is Not Five" though.

 

langfam

[Julie in PA]

I have the same issues with my 9 yo son. My 6 yo daughter gets it, he does not. I have continued because he gets the concept. I keep drilling him. We do things like the math game 24. He really enjoys it and is competitive enough to work hard to remember the facts. WE also allow him to be the banker when we play Monopoly. The rule is: we do not help him (because he is very independent) but if he messes up the addition or subtraction, he has to give the difference form his "bank." He has been getting it right more and more. I do allow him paper and pencil to work it out.