Rethinking history

[boscopup]

We're using Biblioplan Ancients right now, which is basically SOTW + Bible.

 

Next year for 2nd grade, I was originally planning to do SOTW2 + AG (I have all 4 SOTW AGs already). Then I started thinking about SOTW3 and 4. At that point, I'll have a K-1 grader, and SOTW3 and 4 may not be the best choice for him. So that got me looking at TOG for that time period, as I know they focus on inventors and cultures at that age. But doing TOG after SOTW2 would put me starting mid-year through Y2? At that point, I might as well start with TOG Y2. So then my thought was to do TOG Y2 over 2 years, buying just one unit to see if we'd like it before sinking a bunch of money into it. But the TOG thread got me back to thinking I really don't need TOG for this age. It'd probably be better to wait until next history cycle. We may find we like something better later on anyway.

 

So... what is available for the modern time period for a first grader, that is Christian-friendly but NOT providential (no "God used Columbus to discover America"... I believe he *could* have, but that God hasn't told us who he's used and who he hasn't, so I'm not going to make assumptions on what God didn't tell us)? I want something laid out and easy to use. I don't want to make my own curriculum. I don't remember enough history myself to feel comfortable doing that.

 

By time my oldest is 5th grade, I'll also have 2nd and a K'er. TOG looks good for the future, given the age ranges. And part of my thinking of doing TOG next year was getting that expense out of the way so that my costs later on would just be the books. Money isn't really an issue though. Whether I do TOG or SOTW, it's all cheaper than private school was. ;)

[mazakaal]

Could you focus more on American history in the modern period, letting your oldest read SOTW to supplement the main family study? SL and WP both have a 2 year history course for 3rd/4th grades. If you did the second course, it should line up time wise with where you'd be. Do the SL or WP as your main history study, and add just SOTW reading (without activities) for the oldest.

 

I haven't used those SL or WP programs, but that's what I would do if I were in your situation and didn't have to worry about cost.

[Woodland_Mom]

I agree with the pp regarding American History. If you don't want to introduce SOTW 3 & 4 so early, take a year to focus on the US. Your kids are all very young. My advice is to enjoy SOTW 1 and 2 this year and next, then reaccess. Keeping things simple and doable is so important in homeschooling! SOTW is such an enjoyable way to do history!

 

You may want to read through this thread regarding TOG with young children: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251641

[mymonkeybug]

BOSCOPUP, read this thread going on now and maybe it will help you with History since you are talking about TOG.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251641

[boscopup]

Yes, that's the thread that caused me to post this one. :lol:

 

American history is a good idea. I guess I can see what's out there when the time comes.

 

I'm sure my oldest will be fine with SOTW 3 and 4 as is. My middle child is a different critter though. It's hard to tell what he'll be ready for by then. He keeps surprising me by being slow in an area, then suddenly something turns on and he's ahead. He's keeping me on my toes. :tongue_smilie:

[johnandtinagilbert]

Just wanted to drop this in. I added it to the "convince me not to buy TOG thread."

 

I'm jumping in to say, I am the opposite of the other posters. I didn't get TOG when they were early grammar and wish I would have. It would have simplified, directed, and given better and appropriately categorized guidelines to a young teacher who needed them. *Now* the pulling, digging, personal planning, etc is old hat, but *then* I didn't know what I was doing and TOG would have made life easier than digging through the WTM (which was a wonder to me at the time...still is :tongue_smilie:) and pulling from a dozen different resources. The inherent teacher training matters to some people...not all home schoolers start with education, confidence, or even the understanding of how to match up books across genres. Using TOG has taught me many things that go well beyond just humanities. When I speak of self-education, I mean so much more than just reading about history.

 

We used SOTW and it was fine for history, but we prefer living books w/ great illustrations. I tried and failed to self educate with The Well Educated Mind (I wasn't ready for the meat b/c I missed so much of the nibbling in my own education). TOG puts Everything in One Place and it is very.much.worth it to be able to educate a household from one source. I don't know about you, but sometimes taking the whole bunch to the library can wear down the most patient person. I didn't have time to dig in the library -- I needed the list so I could spend time with my family outside of schooling. I didn't have time to pick and choose from a variety of booklists. I didn't have time to hunt down and plan out coordination between map companies and the internet. The list keeps organization simple and easy for me. I know for some with smaller families, this isn't the case, but for a large family household, some things hold value beyond content.

 

And now that I'm into it with the D and R, I really won't care what comes along, I won't leave TOG b/c there will be no reason to. There may be times I will add, sub, or change a book based on my personal library contents, but the guidelines and direction TOG gives me will keep me right where I need to be and since I'll use this program with a ton of kids (7 so far), it's worth every penny. I can't wait to start repeating years with my younger dc. It will be wonderful to have the BTDT perspective and to fine tune what we've done.

[JenninMN]

I'm going to be doing Queen's Living History of Our World after SOTW 2 to focus on American history. Then we'll hit SOTW 3 & 4 the next time around.

It's the closest to a SOTW-type American history that I've found. It is from a Christian viewpoint, but not providential.

 

Jennifer

[jewel7123]

This back and forth banter about TOG is nothing new, lol. I've seen many a thread FOR TOG, and just as many against. My advice is to try out the 3 week sample, see if you can purchase a single unit used, and if you still think TOG would work for you, purchase a used Year plan that you can always resell if you decide after using it that it's not for you. But I wouldn't let that one thread sway you from TOG if you feel it might be a good fit for your family. Everyone has their own opinion about any given curriculum, and you should take it with a grain of salt. For example, I don't particularly care for SOTW 1 for the little ones, but I know MANY, MANY people do, so again, opinions vary greatly and if you read back on the WTM forums you will find the threads for and against TOG are numerous! You have to decide what's right for your family, and not let the WTM board dictate what's right. :001_smile:

[boscopup]

You see, Tina, that's part of what had me thinking TOG in the first place. My son seems to learn more from living books with nice pictures, as you describe. I also like that TOG will give warnings on content, etc. And while the curriculum is "providential", it appears to mostly be in the teacher's notes and/or D and R questions (which I'm fine with, because my kids can just come to a different conclusion at that stage - it would be good practice for applying their Bible knowledge!).

 

And since I was thinking I'd do Y2 over 2 years, I'd only need 2 units for 2nd grade, which isn't expensive ($104 including Map Aids), and I'd be buying just ONE unit first, so I'd know after a semester of use whether I wanted to continue or not. I think the only necessary additional books I was going to need was about $20 worth. Everything else I'd get at the library.

 

Decisions decisions. Why does curriculum choice have to be so difficult? :lol:

 

I might just try the one unit for a semester, see how it goes, and if we don't like it, switch to SOTW + AG straight. Either way, I'll have SOTW (as an alternate spine), and I already have the AG. It's not like I'm spending $200 for the year, ya know? I think one semester of use would give me enough time to evaluate whether I like it or not, as well as whether I believe it's worth the money for my family or not. What some people see as useless will be useful for others, and vice versa. And buying it would not mean not buying other books (as the other thread suggested spending money on books instead).

[SophiaH]

Have you checked out the Easy Classical schedules that align VP cards with SOTW and lots of living books--easy readers appropriate for the younger crowd and read-alouds, etc? You could jump into the MARR schedule next year and then Exporers to 1815 and 1815-present focus more on American history than SOTW does. Also, when you check out the Scholar's Lesson Plans on the VP site, you can plug in the age of your student, choose which year plan you want, and it will give two levels of recommendations--one for K-3 and one for 4-6 for additional book ideas.

 

But, it seems that Biblioplan will also give you what you're looking for, too. Why do you not want to stay with that? They have the readers for K-2 that would keep modern times appropriate for your little one when you get there.

[boscopup]

Have you checked out the Easy Classical schedules that align VP cards with SOTW and lots of living books--easy readers appropriate for the younger crowd and read-alouds, etc? You could jump into the MARR schedule next year and then Exporers to 1815 and 1815-present focus more on American history than SOTW does. Also, when you check out the Scholar's Lesson Plans on the VP site, you can plug in the age of your student, choose which year plan you want, and it will give two levels of recommendations--one for K-3 and one for 4-6 for additional book ideas.

 

I hadn't looked at Easy Classical. Thanks for pointing that out! It looks like a nice schedule, but I don't know that it will be what I'm looking for... see below:

 

But, it seems that Biblioplan will also give you what you're looking for, too. Why do you not want to stay with that? They have the readers for K-2 that would keep modern times appropriate for your little one when you get there.

I'm using BP right now, and it's ok. I do like the K-2 readers that my library has had (though in ancients, my library doesn't have as much... that would have been an issue for TOG Y1 as well, which is one reason why I went with BP this year, since I knew I could just use SOTW if they didn't have the readers). One thing I'm finding with BP is that it's not really making connections for me. It seems like we read about something and then switch to something else, and have no idea how they relate or whether they were at the same time period or different time periods. I think the most we've gotten out of it so far has been geography. My son and I now know quite a bit about ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia areas, the rivers and seas, etc. :) I really like the BP maps. I just haven't gotten a feeling for the thread of history being discussed. We read a SOTW chapter and read some from the Bible, and have no idea how they correlate to each other. :tongue_smilie:Even the parent companion doesn't tie the threads together. It's just all separate. Whereas with TOG, even just in the samples, I'm seeing connections made, and those are dinky little samples!

 

So I guess that's the biggest thing that draws me to TOG... It seems to make connections for me, that I haven't been getting from BP. Now will that matter to my 2nd grader next year? Probably not. But it's driving ME nuts not being able to make these connections, which makes me not able to as effectively teach the material, kwim?

[jewel7123]

and I'd be buying just ONE unit first, so I'd know after a semester of use whether I wanted to continue or not. I think the only necessary additional books I was going to need was about $20 worth. Everything else I'd get at the library.

 

It seems like you've already got this all figured out, and with minimal expense to you as well. So what's your hesitation? :D

[boscopup]

It seems like you've already got this all figured out, and with minimal expense to you as well. So what's your hesitation? :D

 

:lol: Good point. Sometimes I have to banter things about a bit more to really make a decision.

 

Funny thing is, I did the same thing with spelling, originally choosing AAS, but then talking myself out of it thinking it was overkill, blah blah blah. I tried 2 cheaper programs, and while they were "ok", they weren't what we really wanted. My son wanted to know "why", and I needed the hand holding to explain "why". Guess who has and loves AAS now? Similarly, TOG was one of my first choices for history. I do think it was a good idea to do something else to begin with, but now that we have a system down and I'm comfortable with using my library system and the holds process, and I'm comfortable with picking and choosing what we do from a curriculum rather than checking every single box, I think I could handle TOG just fine (it actually looks quite simple to me, having poured through the 3 week samples that are/were available).

 

So yes, I should just try ONE unit and see how it goes. We might like it, and we might not. If it feels like overkill from what we could be doing, I can always drop it and not be out a ton of money.

[Carol in Cal.]

I would say to make the best possible decision for next year, and then take up the decision for the year after that. Don't make them dependent on each other.

 

You may find that SOTW2 takes longer than a year to cover, and you may want your family doing SOTW3 together after all. You may find that you don't want to combine all your children for history the year after next. You may find that using Kingfisher and looking at all the pretty pictures, and maybe assigning some coloring pages is all you want the littles to do for history whether you're using SOTW3 or something else with your oldest.

 

I applaud your desire to think ahead and begin with the end in mind, but I have a feeling that despite your efforts in this vein, something will surprise you at the end of next year.

 

I say go with SOTW2 this year, and put off thinking about the following year for about 6 months. In the meantime, invest in books--good, living books. Read them all to all your children, all the time. Coordinate them with history or don't, but do it all the time. Read myths, fairy tales, Bible, biographies, folk tales, natural science, and historical fiction or retellings.

[SophiaH]

I hadn't looked at Easy Classical. Thanks for pointing that out! It looks like a nice schedule, but I don't know that it will be what I'm looking for... see below:

 

I'm using BP right now, and it's ok. I do like the K-2 readers that my library has had (though in ancients, my library doesn't have as much... that would have been an issue for TOG Y1 as well, which is one reason why I went with BP this year, since I knew I could just use SOTW if they didn't have the readers). One thing I'm finding with BP is that it's not really making connections for me. It seems like we read about something and then switch to something else, and have no idea how they relate or whether they were at the same time period or different time periods. I think the most we've gotten out of it so far has been geography. My son and I now know quite a bit about ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia areas, the rivers and seas, etc. :) I really like the BP maps. I just haven't gotten a feeling for the thread of history being discussed. We read a SOTW chapter and read some from the Bible, and have no idea how they correlate to each other. :tongue_smilie:Even the parent companion doesn't tie the threads together. It's just all separate. Whereas with TOG, even just in the samples, I'm seeing connections made, and those are dinky little samples!

 

So I guess that's the biggest thing that draws me to TOG... It seems to make connections for me, that I haven't been getting from BP. Now will that matter to my 2nd grader next year? Probably not. But it's driving ME nuts not being able to make these connections, which makes me not able to as effectively teach the material, kwim?

 

Yeah, I know what you mean. But actually, I felt the same way about lack of connections with TOG. ;) Those connections are really made in the upper levels since it's more of a unit study style, but for LG--nope. Really for LG it's a booklist with an activity page that corresponds with the exact lit book (so no substitutions), and a map. The Teacher's Notes were written with the upper levels in mind, so many times they didn't really have much to do with the LG books that we had read. The other problem I had was that my library carried very few of the TOG books. OTOH, you can substitute to your heart's desire for the history books, though, and SOTW is scheduled as an alternate resource. I also really like MapAids, although for 1st and 2nd grade *I* ended up doing most of them since I didn't want to make labels like TOG suggests for the younger crowd and it's not always easy to find the places they're talking about unless you just look at the teacher's map, so...it's really just a matter of what you want...(which for me, is not always easy to figure out :lol: I.just.can't.decide sometimes!)

 

I mean, I've been there and if you want to get TOG, then do it. No one's gonna be able to talk you out of it if you've got that itch. :D Get a unit and see if you like it. Who knows, maybe you'll beat the odds? ;) Good luck!

[coffeefreak]

I'll throw another thought in here, have you looked at MFW? We are using MFW 1850-MOD with the 2nd grade go alongs, and used EX-1850 last year with the go-alongs when my youngest was in 1st grade. The younger books were perfect (basically books from their Adventures curriculum), and one of the spines for the older kids is SOTW. As a matter of fact, my oldest does the SOTW reading and outline on her own freeing me up to do the activities with my youngest.

 

Just another thought :)

 

HTH!

Dorinda

[Denise in IN]

I'm using BP right now, and it's ok. I do like the K-2 readers that my library has had (though in ancients, my library doesn't have as much... that would have been an issue for TOG Y1 as well, which is one reason why I went with BP this year, since I knew I could just use SOTW if they didn't have the readers). One thing I'm finding with BP is that it's not really making connections for me. It seems like we read about something and then switch to something else, and have no idea how they relate or whether they were at the same time period or different time periods. I think the most we've gotten out of it so far has been geography. My son and I now know quite a bit about ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia areas, the rivers and seas, etc. :) I really like the BP maps. I just haven't gotten a feeling for the thread of history being discussed. We read a SOTW chapter and read some from the Bible, and have no idea how they correlate to each other. :tongue_smilie:Even the parent companion doesn't tie the threads together. It's just all separate. Whereas with TOG, even just in the samples, I'm seeing connections made, and those are dinky little samples!

 

So I guess that's the biggest thing that draws me to TOG... It seems to make connections for me, that I haven't been getting from BP. Now will that matter to my 2nd grader next year? Probably not. But it's driving ME nuts not being able to make these connections, which makes me not able to as effectively teach the material, kwim?

 

I felt the same way when my kids were younger. I loved how easy Biblioplan was to use. I knew that I didn't have time to tackle TOG at that point. Have you considered just getting some books/resources geared toward adults or older students and read those for yourself? For Year 2 SWB's History of the Medieval World along with a good church history book would be a good combo. I'm sure you could get other good book suggestions from these forums! Or, if you like audio, Diana Waring cd's are wonderful for making connections. I am listening to them with my kids, but I with I'd had them earlier! It's often more practical for me to listen to cd's rather than trying to plow through books.

 

If you do decide to try TOG, definitely just buy one unit. It's not much more expensive to buy one unit at a time, and you're out a lot less money if you decide it's not the best direction for the moment.

[WIS0320]

Hi, I'm very new and trying to figure this same thing out for myself for next year. I saw Guesthollow's schedule recommended in another thread and it really looks great and it is free! I think it would be really workable to adapt and use other resources or pick and choose what you want. Anyway, I hadn't seen that mentioned here and while I've never used it and it does look like a nice mix of books and activities and it does list SOTW so it seems like it might be a good fit for us. Just thought I'd throw it out there into the mix of ideas for you to mull over.

[boscopup]

I felt the same way when my kids were younger. I loved how easy Biblioplan was to use. I knew that I didn't have time to tackle TOG at that point. Have you considered just getting some books/resources geared toward adults or older students and read those for yourself? For Year 2 SWB's History of the Medieval World along with a good church history book would be a good combo. I'm sure you could get other good book suggestions from these forums! Or, if you like audio, Diana Waring cd's are wonderful for making connections. I am listening to them with my kids, but I with I'd had them earlier! It's often more practical for me to listen to cd's rather than trying to plow through books.

 

That's not a bad idea!

 

Thinking again (just call me Eggo :tongue_smilie:), I may just go ahead and do SOTW2 + AG, getting all the books my library has that are marked "IR" in the AG. I've noticed with science that my son really picks up on what he reads himself. So the most important thing is really to give him a slew of books that HE can read and pour over. This works well for him. Up to this point, I haven't really used the reading suggestions in the AG yet, so I think I should try that and see how it goes. I also want to get the SOTW audio so we can listen to that in the van, use an mp3 player to listen to it, etc. He could hear it multiple times, and it'd be said by someone who can pronounce all the names. :lol: I'm seriously considering getting the audio for SOTW1 at the moment, after reading through chapters 12 and 13 today and having to flip back to the pronunciation guide a gazillion times.

[SewLittleTime]

:lol: So yes, I should just try ONE unit and see how it goes. We might like it, and we might not. If it feels like overkill from what we could be doing, I can always drop it and not be out a ton of money.

This is exactly what I did. I needed to try it so that I could either move forward with TOG or just put it out of my mind. The constant wondering and being intrigued with it was driving me batty. I know I was driving dh batty:tongue_smilie:.

 

We have loved out unit trial run. So much so, that I feel comfortable about buying a year plan now.

[Carol in Cal.]

That's not a bad idea!

 

Thinking again (just call me Eggo :tongue_smilie:), I may just go ahead and do SOTW2 + AG, getting all the books my library has that are marked "IR" in the AG. I've noticed with science that my son really picks up on what he reads himself. So the most important thing is really to give him a slew of books that HE can read and pour over. This works well for him. Up to this point, I haven't really used the reading suggestions in the AG yet, so I think I should try that and see how it goes. I also want to get the SOTW audio so we can listen to that in the van, use an mp3 player to listen to it, etc. He could hear it multiple times, and it'd be said by someone who can pronounce all the names. :lol: I'm seriously considering getting the audio for SOTW1 at the moment, after reading through chapters 12 and 13 today and having to flip back to the pronunciation guide a gazillion times.

 

The specific IR books for SOTW1 were outstanding for DD when she was just learning to read. They were at exactly the right level for her. Also, some of the RA books in SOTW2 are so much better than what I was running across in the library that I started to order them in advance, regularly.

[boscopup]

The specific IR books for SOTW1 were outstanding for DD when she was just learning to read. They were at exactly the right level for her. Also, some of the RA books in SOTW2 are so much better than what I was running across in the library that I started to order them in advance, regularly.

 

I'm currently making a list of which books I might want to buy. Love my Excel spreadsheets. :lol:

[johnandtinagilbert]

You see, Tina, that's part of what had me thinking TOG in the first place. My son seems to learn more from living books with nice pictures, as you describe. I also like that TOG will give warnings on content, etc. And while the curriculum is "providential", it appears to mostly be in the teacher's notes and/or D and R questions (which I'm fine with, because my kids can just come to a different conclusion at that stage - it would be good practice for applying their Bible knowledge!). We enjoy those kinds of books so much more. I do have a "just the facts, ma'am" dc who prefers texts, even narrative texts, so we can also accomodate her using TOG. The bonus as the teacher is options, in this case. TOG allows me descent options right in front of me...no legword on my part!

The warnings are nice.

We are not believers in Providence and Pre-destination (in a Reformed/Calvinist sort of way) and we have had No Problem guiding the dc to our understanding. To be honest, I revel in the opportunity to discuss deeper and further the differences in doctrine with my D and R students. It's a real blessing.

 

And since I was thinking I'd do Y2 over 2 years, I'd only need 2 units for 2nd grade, which isn't expensive ($104 including Map Aids), and I'd be buying just ONE unit first, so I'd know after a semester of use whether I wanted to continue or not. I think the only necessary additional books I was going to need was about $20 worth. Everything else I'd get at the library. I can't wait to get back to year 2 we learned SO MUCH! It was fun and amazing. Splitting it up into longer time frames was great too. We really got good use out of each week, stretching it out and soaking in as much as we could. It's also an amazing time in church history. I have to say, blushing and proud, that my kids regularly impress people at church with their bible knowledge and church history. I honestly owe it to home schooling!

 

Decisions decisions. Why does curriculum choice have to be so difficult? :lol: Because it's also kinda fun...it a twisted sort of way!

 

I might just try the one unit for a semester, see how it goes, and if we don't like it, switch to SOTW + AG straight. Either way, I'll have SOTW (as an alternate spine), and I already have the AG. It's not like I'm spending $200 for the year, ya know? I think one semester of use would give me enough time to evaluate whether I like it or not, as well as whether I believe it's worth the money for my family or not. What some people see as useless will be useful for others, and vice versa. And buying it would not mean not buying other books (as the other thread suggested spending money on books instead).

 

I hadn't looked at Easy Classical. Thanks for pointing that out! It looks like a nice schedule, but I don't know that it will be what I'm looking for... see below:

 

I'm using BP right now, and it's ok. I do like the K-2 readers that my library has had (though in ancients, my library doesn't have as much... that would have been an issue for TOG Y1 as well, which is one reason why I went with BP this year, since I knew I could just use SOTW if they didn't have the readers). One thing I'm finding with BP is that it's not really making connections for me. It seems like we read about something and then switch to something else, and have no idea how they relate or whether they were at the same time period or different time periods. I think the most we've gotten out of it so far has been geography. My son and I now know quite a bit about ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia areas, the rivers and seas, etc. :) I really like the BP maps. I just haven't gotten a feeling for the thread of history being discussed. We read a SOTW chapter and read some from the Bible, and have no idea how they correlate to each other. :tongue_smilie:Even the parent companion doesn't tie the threads together. It's just all separate. Whereas with TOG, even just in the samples, I'm seeing connections made, and those are dinky little samples!

 

So I guess that's the biggest thing that draws me to TOG... It seems to make connections for me, that I haven't been getting from BP. Now will that matter to my 2nd grader next year? Probably not. But it's driving ME nuts not being able to make these connections, which makes me not able to as effectively teach the material, kwim?

I have enjoyed this thread simply to learn more about BP. I have to say, my experience with the connections in the Tapestry of time, have made this program great for me as a teacher. I can't possibly read everything for everyone anymore (my family is too large) and my memory is not what it used to be (I'm the Queen of post-it-notes!). TOG fills in the gaps my crowded brain produces!