advice for a mom

[SeekingSimplicity]

A friend of mine has a very strong-willed, defiant, child. Mom's at her wit's end. I've know her since she was 5 and she was this way then, now she's 11 and it's not getting any better.

I babysit her a lot and I have trouble with her too. I looked up ODD and it sounds a little like that to me. I showed it to her mom and she thought it did also. BUt they have no insurance, can't afford it and don't qualify for state insurance. They tried treating her for ADD once, but the meds made her very aggressive, and she's aggressive to start with so that wasn't good.

Anyhow, she hits people a lot. When she plays with my kids, she hits them as a way of playing with them. I tell her that they don't like to be played with that way. But she'll tell me she didn't hit them, she was just playing. Like she doesn't get that her 'playful' hitting is still hitting. And she'll hit her mother in the same way, and it really bothers her mother. But even though her mother tries to correct her it doesn't help.

 

She was held back a year in 2nd grade. She wasn't actually failing, but her grades weren't great and her teachers felt she wasn't mature enough to go forward. Now she's failing 4th grade because she won't do her work. He mother keeps pushing her to get her homework done, but the girl doesn't want to put any effort into it. They were up past midnight last night trying to do a science project she was assigned 2 months ago. She waited till 10pm the night before it was due to tell her mom about it. Then wanted her mom to do it for her. The mom had to make her do it herself.

So she called me this morning to vent. She's so frustrated. I dont' know what to tell her that I haven't already told her. I thought maybe you mama's could off us some fresh perspective on the situation.

[Parrothead]

I say mom should look into counseling. The county mental health dept. will work on a sliding scale for people w/o insurance. She should call.

[KuniMom]

One thing she can do that's free is an elimination diet. A lot of times if a child is allergic or intolerant of a food, it can cause behavioral problems and ADD symptoms. My youngest probably could have been labeled with ODD, but if we keep her off of wheat, dairy, and corn syrup, she is a happy girl. I followed this website to do an elimination diet for my daughter. (Please note that I don't endorse this clinic at all, I just thought their elimination diet that they posted was detailed and easy to understand and implement). We were at the point where it was either find out if a food was causing her behavioral problems, or take her to a psychiatrist. Thankfully the diet pretty much pinpointed that specific foods caused her to rage.

[SeekingSimplicity]

I say mom should look into counseling. The county mental health dept. will work on a sliding scale for people w/o insurance. She should call.

 

 

Who would you call to check into something like this? Hospital or health dept or something?

[Parrothead]

Who would you call to check into something like this? Hospital or health dept or something?

The county health dept should have a number or be able to transfer you.

[SeekingSimplicity]

The only thing that I've seen help is for a) the child to decide on a career path..they then become willing to work toward it or b) the parents and school work together on discipline. If nothing works, the child will go on the gen ed remedial path and drop out at 16 after failing for nonparticipation.

 

With the hitting, if the mama doesn't get this corrected,she'll be in court in middle school once the dd is big enough to do damage. The other parents start pressing charges to recover med costs then.

 

 

She's tries to work with the school. And the dd has been put in some special classes already. But she's really afraid her dd will continue with this into adulthood and lack the motivation to do anything productive as an adult, or not finish school if she keeps going the way she is.

 

How can she get control of the hitting situation? If telling the child that it's wrong doesn't work, what else is there to do?

[SeekingSimplicity]

The county health dept should have a number or be able to transfer you.

 

 

Thanks

[SeekingSimplicity]

One thing she can do that's free is an elimination diet. A lot of times if a child is allergic or intolerant of a food, it can cause behavioral problems and ADD symptoms. My youngest probably could have been labeled with ODD, but if we keep her off of wheat, dairy, and corn syrup, she is a happy girl. I followed this website to do an elimination diet for my daughter. (Please note that I don't endorse this clinic at all, I just thought their elimination diet that they posted was detailed and easy to understand and implement). We were at the point where it was either find out if a food was causing her behavioral problems, or take her to a psychiatrist. Thankfully the diet pretty much pinpointed that specific foods caused her to rage.

 

 

We've talked some about trying something like this. The mom is really intimidated by the idea. But I'll pass on what you've said to her and encourage her again to try it. I know the dd is allergic to artificial sweeteners and food colors, so it's certainly possible she has other allergies. My dh was almost put on ADD meds when he was little. Turned out he was allergic to wheat.

[Mom22ns]

I have to chime in here and say how important it is for this mom to get help. I have an autistic spectrum son and because of that know a lot of people with kids that have disabilities that cause similar issues. Those that deal with them early (as we have) usually have them well controlled by the teen years. Those that don't (which seems more common) find themselves in huge trouble when their kids grow and have hormones making their moods even less stable. I often see where parents wait too late and they don't have time to teach the kids appropriate responses or find meds that work before the kids end up in some type of serious trouble.

 

On a more encouraging note, all the parents I know that started focusing on issues like this at a young age have had great success in helping their kids! Sometimes it is a matter of parents learning how to help, other times it is a matter of medications helping. Either way, there are excellent success rates when these issues are dealt with early.

[rootsnwings]

It sounds like she needs to get the ADD under control first & foremost. There are LOTS of medications and it may be that she needs to try something different until they find something that works for her.

[elfgivas]

:grouphug::grouphug:

 

 

ODD and ADD are different things. ODD rarely responds to councelling, and sometimes it makes it worse BUT councelling for the mom can help. there are lots of books that can help the mom learn some of the techniques.

 

mostly it involves rigid routine and emotional-neutral giving of specific and appropriate consequences.

 

re hitting: this would need to go to zero tolerance, with consistent, specific and non emotional consequences.

 

fwiw,

ann

[rwilliams]

:grouphug::grouphug:

 

 

ODD and ADD are different things. ODD rarely responds to councelling, and sometimes it makes it worse BUT councelling for the mom can help. there are lots of books that can help the mom learn some of the techniques.

 

mostly it involves rigid routine and emotional-neutral giving of specific and appropriate consequences.

 

re hitting: this would need to go to zero tolerance, with consistent, specific and non emotional consequences.

 

fwiw,

ann

 

 

I agree! First you need an accurate dx. Then decide on best treatment. But for all aggressive behavior the parents need to TAKE CHARGE and stop it at all costs!!!! Behavior modification. Start with the mildest response and slowly and consistently increase the response until behavior stops with absolutely no emotion from parent. The child must not win and there should be no power struggle. The parent has the power and the child is making poor choices and this is the consequence. Physical aggression is met with physically restraining your child until she has self-control again with no conversation. If parents do not get control of this it will lead to worse problems.....group home....jail......

[SeekingSimplicity]

I agree! First you need an accurate dx. Then decide on best treatment. But for all aggressive behavior the parents need to TAKE CHARGE and stop it at all costs!!!! Behavior modification. Start with the mildest response and slowly and consistently increase the response until behavior stops with absolutely no emotion from parent. The child must not win and there should be no power struggle. The parent has the power and the child is making poor choices and this is the consequence. Physical aggression is met with physically restraining your child until she has self-control again with no conversation. If parents do not get control of this it will lead to worse problems.....group home....jail......

 

No, I wasn't diagnosing her with ODD. LOL I was just reading up on it and thought it sounded like that was similar to her behavior. The child doesn't have insurance, so the mom is limited in what she's able to do. She took her to the dr to talk to her about ADD. The dr prescribed meds that the mom was able to afford. But it made her aggressive. (now I don't know what's out there, and what these kind of meds cost, so... IDK)

 

But, the mom is not able to physically restrain the child. She is disabled. She was older when she had the child, it was unplanned. The mom has a bad back, bad neck, osteoporosis, fibro, bad hips, bad knees. She's falling apart physically. The girl hitting her can, and has hurt her. She's gotten to where she's no longer able to calmly respond to it.

As far as when I have her, I can calmly talk to her, try to reason with her, put her in time out. And then she goes right back to it. And I set her aside again, explain to her that my kids do not like to be played wth by being hit. And she'll say she didn't hit them, she was playing with them. ANd then it's like :banghead:

[SeekingSimplicity]

Why is the child hitting mother? Why is child hitting playmates? Is it in anger, revenge or is it attention getting or other? .

 

 

She seems to hit her mom out of frustration and anger. Like if her mom told her to pick up her toys, she might get mad and hit her. Sometimes it's for no apparent reason. Sometimes, she's just playing and being silly and might pull her mom's hair or something.

When she's playing, IDK what it is. She'll just reach up and pop someone on hte head or punch them in the arm or whatever. And she's sort of spatially unaware, I guess would be the word? Like I had taken them to church one day. And they (girl and my dd2) were standing between two pews. For some reason she started swinging her arms around, hit dd in the head, which caused dd's head to hit the back of hte pew in front of her. It was an accident, but dd ended up with a black eye for a few days. And she doesn't always seem to understand cause and effect either.

[justasque]

Sounds a bit like Sensory Integration Disorder. (I think that's what it's called.) The Out of Sync Child is the standard book about this, I think. What you've described - the random hitting, the lack of spatial awareness, etc., are part of it. As I understand it, once you put the pieces together, and understand how it's all related, it's easier to address.

[rwilliams]

Sounds a bit like Sensory Integration Disorder. (I think that's what it's called.) The Out of Sync Child is the standard book about this, I think. What you've described - the random hitting, the lack of spatial awareness, etc., are part of it. As I understand it, once you put the pieces together, and understand how it's all related, it's easier to address.

 

 

It does sound like a Sensory issue partially. Sensory integration issues and behavior problems seem to go together. You have to meet the sensory needs while also addressing the behavior. When you talk to child about hitting ask her if she would like you to squish her....I am thinking she would just love this and crave it. You can put a pillow on her while she lays on the floor and hit the pillow with like playing the drums with enough force to satisfy her. Let her turn and move how she wants to. You can also remove the pillow and just push with your hands with a slow sustained pressure. Usually when you touch a child like this....try heavy more sustaned pressure over a larger area. Deep, long stroked rubs on the back while you talk to her. Sometimes children will hit another child because they actually crave that type of input themselves. Sounds crazy but true.

[rwilliams]

As far as when I have her, I can calmly talk to her, try to reason with her, put her in time out. And then she goes right back to it. And I set her aside again, explain to her that my kids do not like to be played wth by being hit. And she'll say she didn't hit them, she was playing with them. ANd then it's like :banghead:

 

 

Try a different strategy.......Prevent the behavior before it happens. Use anticipatory guidance and teach how to touch gently. Cue her often to touch gently and then praise her in a way that is meaninful to her (verbal, touch etc..) for being gentle. Redirect the hitting without calling it hitting.......reframe it positive and say lets try this again.....demo a gentle touch...let her copy you and then offer praise. Also if she seems full of energy....take her outside for some high energy play to help calm and tire her.

[SeekingSimplicity]

Sounds a bit like Sensory Integration Disorder. (I think that's what it's called.) The Out of Sync Child is the standard book about this, I think. What you've described - the random hitting, the lack of spatial awareness, etc., are part of it. As I understand it, once you put the pieces together, and understand how it's all related, it's easier to address.

 

 

I just happen to have checked this book out from the library this weekend! I got it to read because of my dd2. I'll keep her in mind as I read it.

[justamouse]

I say mom should look into counseling. The county mental health dept. will work on a sliding scale for people w/o insurance. She should call.

 

 

This. Absolutely.

 

Please. Having BTDT, this behavior is not good. She can't sit back and just be frustrated, she needs to be proactive, engaged and storming the gates of hell for help because this will get bigger and badder (the lack of empathy and lack of physical boundaries). She needs professional help for both her and her daughter and the family because this behavior is not fair to other siblings, either.

 

ODD and ADD are different, but often comorbid.

 

The elimination diet will help while Mom has control of the diet-but when a kid gets older and can sneak the food or buy it themselves, they self medicate with sugar. It wrecks havoc on the surrounding people.

Edited February 15, 2011 by justamouse

[TXMomof4]

We've talked some about trying something like this. The mom is really intimidated by the idea. But I'll pass on what you've said to her and encourage her again to try it. I know the dd is allergic to artificial sweeteners and food colors, so it's certainly possible she has other allergies. My dh was almost put on ADD meds when he was little. Turned out he was allergic to wheat.

 

Red dye makes my dd whacko. We discovered when she was little a link between bad behavior and strawberry milk and cut out artificial colors.

 

Sunday a friend brought some strawberry crush drink to dinner and dd had one that evening and another at lunch the next day. We never have things like that so I didn't even think about the dye. Good heavens to mergatroids! The child was absolutely off the deep end yesterday. Mean, short tempered, bad attitude, and at dinner she hauled off and smacked ds because he talked over her. Now, she's a little booger some days, but this was WAY over the top and I realized she had had the sodas. The rest of them went in the trash and today is almost back to normal.

 

All that to say that it could be something relatively simple. Cutting out artificial colors and sweeteners is really not terribly hard or expensive and is a fairly easy place to start.